Steering problem diagnosis

[sowberry]

'02 V6 Sport 93k

Needed brake job, had already ordered pads and front rotors. Had trouble removing the front caliper bracket bolt that goes thru the knuckle (bracket bolts are loctited), so just put the new front pads on. Test drive resulted in a lot of vibration above 30mph, seemed to quiet upon brake application. So I thought maybe the new pads were just rubbing/sticking on the worn out rotors. Indeed, at least one of the new pads had a groove from the rust on the old rotor.

Found a tip (I think on another site) that to access to the caliper bolt behind the knuckle, put both wheels in the air and turn them all the way to one side; this give you an angle to put a breaker bar on the bolt (with a small extension to stick into the knuckle).

So I managed to get the new rotors on, got the same vibration on the test drive. But on the way home, felt something give way in the steering, car started wandering, very scary! Finally made it home without crashing (car would still steer both ways, just felt like the steering wheel wasn't really connected).

Traction control light came on just as I was parking, but didn't have a chance that day to take a look or plug in a scanner (I only have a basic OBDII). From what I've read, it sounds like either tie rods or control arm ball joints gave out. I wonder if something broke from the stress of having one tire in the air as I was changing the brakes. Maybe yaw sensor caused traction light?

Went back a few days later to take a look, and I think you're supposed to grab the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock to look for play in the tie rod, 12 and 6 for the ball joints, but I couldn't detect any movement/noise when shaking either tire (car on the ground). I put the car on ramps and tried wiggling the tie rod, seems ok (traction control light stayed off when I put it on the ramps). Had someone turn the wheel with the car on the ground, didn't see any delayed movement, but it was hard to see the connections to the knuckle.

Any thoughts on how to diagnose this? Should I just try replacing outer tie rods (parts aren't expensive) and see if it fixes it? But then I'd need to pay for an alignment. Would it likely cost more than $500 to fix this at an independent shop? I can probably drive it over, as there are several within a mile radius, but the car probably isn't worth putting that much more money into (already have another car for hauling family, but prefer driving the LS). Would appreciate any advice!

 

[joegr]

Look at the front lower control arms. I can tell you that when they are the problem, grabbing a wheel and tugging on it won't show it. (I guess it takes way more force that that.) If it actually is the control arms, what happens is that both wheels can point in or out. One symptom is that the front tires will look odd because the forces at play will try to roll them off the rims.

I think that to be certain of the diagnosis, you have to drive it a little (not on the street) and stop when the steering messes up. Then you can see the part(s) that are not in the correct position(s).

 

[Sincoln]

I remember many years ago buying a rusted up 77' Granada that had been sitting for like 5-10 years outside (kinda weird thinking back, as the car was probably 20 years old at the time and now my Continental is almost the same age; how far car quality has come in the past 40 years). It actually ran, and I was using it as a work car. I had a buddy from work with me and we were pulling out of a gas station entrance I tried goosing it on the turn to spin the tires. Next thing I know, it's fish tailing madly all over the place and the steering was wonky and my buddy thought I was showing off LOL. I pulled over, and couldn't see anything wrong. Steering was back to normal.

Far as I could tell, I think the tie rod outer managed to pop off the ball, and some how reattached. Ended up junking the car.

Don't drive it until you know what happened. If doing a tie rod, do both sides, inner AND outer, get them near identical in length to old ones, and have it aligned ASAP or tire wear will occur very quickly.

OR, have it towed to a reputable shop you TRUST, and have them inspect the the entire front end. You might need more weight behind a pry bar to find a bad bushing, ect. in the control arm.

 

[BILLBOATS]

Use a monkey wrench for checking play .

 

[sowberry]

So I drove it up and down the driveway, making S-turns lock to lock, steering felt normal (and no traction control light). It's like Sincoln's experience where it's like something broke loose and then somehow popped back in.

I put the front up on jack stands (instead of ramps) today, and with the wheels dangling I could see the boots for the ball joints on both upper control arms are gone. Would failure of the uppers cause the same symptoms as the lowers?

Would it be accurate to say that it has to be either the upper control arm ball joint or the outer tie rod (knuckle) ball joint? I can't see how failure of the other control arm bushings (horizontally attached to the body to allow the arms to swing vertically) would affect steering feel (failure seems like it would just cause creaking/thumping like the sway bar bushings). Replacing the UCAs seems straight forward enough (other than the difficulty getting to the bolt under the degas/master cylinder). Would replacing only the UCAs still require an alignment?

My '02 has an August build date scrawled on the air intake housing; I believe this means I have the 16mm lower ball joint. The only options for replacement are to either press a new one into the knuckle or a whole new knuckle, right?

 

[sowberry]

After some more investigation, it seems grabbing the tire to look for play requires the tires in the air, which I didn't do previously. With one tire up (so the other provides steering resistance), I found some play holding at 9 and 3, which would seem to indicate worn tie rods, although I don't detect anything when just grabbing the tie rod and shaking.

Sticking a 2x4 as a lever under the tire to move it up and down a little did not reveal any movement/sound from the lower ball joint, and the boot is still intact (unlike the uppers), so I think they are good. I can move one of the upper ball joints a little by pushing on the knuckle with my thumbs while holding the control arm, so I think at least that one's shot. Still not sure if that would cause the weird steering I experienced, but since the parts are not too expensive (uppers are not load-bearing, so I didn't spring for Moog), I'm just gonna try replacing them.

So I got new upper control arms and outer tie rods, but I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The manual says to disconnect the shock absorber, but is this really necessary? I'm thinking just to put a jack under the LCA while replacing the upper. Will that work, or will there still be too much tension on the uppers? I wouldn't think there'd be any tension on the upper since the shock is attached to the body, but I don't want to make a mistake dealing with the coil spring.

 

[AmsterDutch]

After some more investigation, it seems grabbing the tire to look for play requires the tires in the air, which I didn't do previously. With one tire up (so the other provides steering resistance), I found some play holding at 9 and 3, which would seem to indicate worn tie rods, although I don't detect anything when just grabbing the tie rod and shaking.

Sticking a 2x4 as a lever under the tire to move it up and down a little did not reveal any movement/sound from the lower ball joint, and the boot is still intact (unlike the uppers), so I think they are good. I can move one of the upper ball joints a little by pushing on the knuckle with my thumbs while holding the control arm, so I think at least that one's shot. Still not sure if that would cause the weird steering I experienced, but since the parts are not too expensive (uppers are not load-bearing, so I didn't spring for Moog), I'm just gonna try replacing them.

So I got new upper control arms and outer tie rods, but I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The manual says to disconnect the shock absorber, but is this really necessary? I'm thinking just to put a jack under the LCA while replacing the upper. Will that work, or will there still be too much tension on the uppers? I wouldn't think there'd be any tension on the upper since the shock is attached to the body, but I don't want to make a mistake dealing with the coil spring.

I just replaced the upper control arm a few weeks ago on the right side of the car. The ball joint on the upper arm was bad. I took the shock out after watching a YouTube video, but I think I could’ve gotten away with leaving the shock in place. I got some experience with the LS’s shocks so all wasn’t wasted because I will be replacing the front struts/ shock absorbers soon enough anyway. My car is in a long slow restoration. I have a Envoy also and the Lincoln is kinda my hobby car and I absolutely love it. Anyway it’s easier to get the upper control arm passenger side bolt off if you move the fuse box out of the way or I guess I found it easier .....if you do remove the shocks take much care not to snap the strut mount bolts off, use the proper torque....You can use a jack I suppose like you stated I don’t think I even needed that I managed to pull control arm down and place the bolt and nut on without one...other than that it’s an easy process just use patience and take your time...keep me posted if you have any questions...tc

 

[AmsterDutch]

So I drove it up and down the driveway, making S-turns lock to lock, steering felt normal (and no traction control light). It's like Sincoln's experience where it's like something broke loose and then somehow popped back in.

I put the front up on jack stands (instead of ramps) today, and with the wheels dangling I could see the boots for the ball joints on both upper control arms are gone. Would failure of the uppers cause the same symptoms as the lowers?

Would it be accurate to say that it has to be either the upper control arm ball joint or the outer tie rod (knuckle) ball joint? I can't see how failure of the other control arm bushings (horizontally attached to the body to allow the arms to swing vertically) would affect steering feel (failure seems like it would just cause creaking/thumping like the sway bar bushings). Replacing the UCAs seems straight forward enough (other than the difficulty getting to the bolt under the degas/master cylinder). Would replacing only the UCAs still require an alignment?

My '02 has an August build date scrawled on the air intake housing; I believe this means I have the 16mm lower ball joint. The only options for replacement are to either press a new one into the knuckle or a whole new knuckle, right?

Also suggest new lower ball joints if your going to do the upper... have a respectable shop press the old out and the new ones in...shop around a bit if you can and find one that won’t over charge you to do this....a good/fair shop should only charge about $25-$30 dollars each ball joint ...unfortunately it’s wise if you remove the hub assemblies also due to the knuckle being ( S ) shaped it’s hard for the press to maneuver around the hub...buy the Moog problem solvers brand for the lower ball joints you won’t be disappointed...believe it or not there are shops out there that will do this and even allow your own parts to be replaced...they are still making good money using there shop press ....trust me it will only take them 15-20 minutes and they just made $50-$60 dollars ...you do the math ...your hubs may be a pain to remove ...living in the Midwest does a toll on the hub assemblies...but if the upper ball joints are toast ....won’t be long until the lowers follow as well...purchase new hub assemblies now your more than likely going to destroy the old ones trying to remove them ....thank the salt and liquid rust up here in the Midwest lol ....good luck

 

[sowberry]

Replaced the outer tie rods yesterday. Driver side went well. Vice-grips fit perfectly on the splined section of the inner tie rod, simply braced against the LCA to unscrew the outer using a large adjustable wrench (after loosening the jam nut).

The trick where you count the number of revolutions while removing the outer only works if your replacement is exactly the same as the old one. I bought aftermarket, and as you can see in the pic, the dimensions are not the same. So I just tried to eyeball the distance from the jam nut to the ball joint shaft.

Wow, the other side was a b*tch. I saw milehighmikey's tale of woe doing this job, and I must have run into the same thing. Figured out that since the inner can rotate, I could keep orienting the flat tie rod sides vertically so as to get both hands on the wrench while sitting on the ground halfway in the wheel well. That's the only way I could get enough leverage pulling towards myself to move it (vice-grips again bracing against the LCA, ball joint sitting on a jack and kinda braced against the brake rotor).

Had to rotate the inner and replace vice-grips every half turn for the whole length of the thread; took like an hour. The resistance was such that the metal would sometimes groan like when pulling a big nail out of wood. Threads looked fine after I got it off though. Getting the new one on that side also took more effort, so I think some inners are simply thicker, but still in tolerance.

 

[AmsterDutch]

Replaced the outer tie rods yesterday. Driver side went well. Vice-grips fit perfectly on the splined section of the inner tie rod, simply braced against the LCA to unscrew the outer using a large adjustable wrench (after loosening the jam nut).

The trick where you count the number of revolutions while removing the outer only works if your replacement is exactly the same as the old one. I bought aftermarket, and as you can see in the pic, the dimensions are not the same. So I just tried to eyeball the distance from the jam nut to the ball joint shaft.

Wow, the other side was a b*tch. I saw milehighmikey's tale of woe doing this job, and I must have run into the same thing. Figured out that since the inner can rotate, I could keep orienting the flat tie rod sides vertically so as to get both hands on the wrench while sitting on the ground halfway in the wheel well. That's the only way I could get enough leverage pulling towards myself to move it (vice-grips again bracing against the LCA, ball joint sitting on a jack and kinda braced against the brake rotor).

Had to rotate the inner and replace vice-grips every half turn for the whole length of the thread; took like an hour. The resistance was such that the metal would sometimes groan like when pulling a big nail out of wood. Threads looked fine after I got it off though. Getting the new one on that side also took more effort, so I think some inners are simply thicker, but still in tolerance.

View attachment 828567479

You need to invest in a torch ...Harbor Frieght has them dirt cheap ...I know when I replaced mine it was like pulling teeth....after putting a torch on it, damn thing peeled off like a banana ...man that tie rod looks shot ...again I say you should get those old hubs off right away and put some new lower ball joints in ...these winters in the Midwest do a toll on our cars.

 

[AmsterDutch]

Replaced the outer tie rods yesterday. Driver side went well. Vice-grips fit perfectly on the splined section of the inner tie rod, simply braced against the LCA to unscrew the outer using a large adjustable wrench (after loosening the jam nut).

The trick where you count the number of revolutions while removing the outer only works if your replacement is exactly the same as the old one. I bought aftermarket, and as you can see in the pic, the dimensions are not the same. So I just tried to eyeball the distance from the jam nut to the ball joint shaft.

Wow, the other side was a b*tch. I saw milehighmikey's tale of woe doing this job, and I must have run into the same thing. Figured out that since the inner can rotate, I could keep orienting the flat tie rod sides vertically so as to get both hands on the wrench while sitting on the ground halfway in the wheel well. That's the only way I could get enough leverage pulling towards myself to move it (vice-grips again bracing against the LCA, ball joint sitting on a jack and kinda braced against the brake rotor).

Had to rotate the inner and replace vice-grips every half turn for the whole length of the thread; took like an hour. The resistance was such that the metal would sometimes groan like when pulling a big nail out of wood. Threads looked fine after I got it off though. Getting the new one on that side also took more effort, so I think some inners are simply thicker, but still in tolerance.

View attachment 828567479

Food for thought ...if you think it was a PITA getting th tie rod off wait until you try the hubs lol you might just be better off going with the Mevotech knuckles with installed lower ball joints ...they were running a sale on them on Rockauto close out part...you can get a decent pair of hubs on Prime choice website for cheap I have them on my 3.9 and they’re working great so far $73.00 for the set

 

[sowberry]

Replaced the upper control arms. Turns out you need to take the shock out in order to remove the arm-to-body bolts since the nuts are on the engine side. My trepidation regarding the coil spring was unfounded, as there is no chance of releasing the spring tension when removing it (it's the center nut that holds the spring tension, not any of the top mount nuts attached to the body).

Passenger side was straightforward. I backed the big shock mount bolt out of the knuckle by simultaneously pulling and unscrewing; this left some tap marks on the knuckle hole, but I didn't see any other way to extract it (didn't want to just whack it with a hammer), as it wouldn't just slide out even though there wasn't any tension from shock (could kinda wiggle it once it was halfway out).

Because the arm-to-knuckle nut broke loose easily, I didn't bother spraying any penetrating oil on it; big mistake, as it got stuck at the bottom after there was no more room on the hex holding part. Vise-grips on the top were ineffective, so I ended up just cutting it off.

I followed the manual on the driver side and took off the bracket under the shock mount cover and the master cylinder nuts (long wobble extension outside, universal inside). Tried pulling the MC off the bolts, but something seemed to catch just before I could get it off. Really, all that's necessary to make room to swing a wrench is disconnecting the electrical thing at the bottom of the MC (squeeze on the wire side to pop up the lock tab), although having stuff loose does give a little more room.

The front nut is easily accessible. I removed the air filter instead of loosening the power steering reservoir.

 

[sowberry]

Couple other notes: Like AmsterDutch said, loosening the fuse box does make it easier to get to the passenger front UCA nut. There are a bunch of tabs on the fuse box, some of which seem to hold the top and bottom together. Only the 3 big ones are necessary to move it: the two in the back and one in the front.

I figured since I had it apart and needed an alignment, might as well replace the lower ball joints too. Got denied by the frozen-ass rusted hub ass'y. Soaked in penetrating oil, bolts backed out easily, hammered a little on the bolts when half out, trashed a chisel trying to get in there, gave up since they still seem ok.

Someone else mentioned using a block of wood to hammer on the bolts; that's a good idea, as direct hammering can deform the head so a socket no longer fits (learned the hard way ).

The sensor wire that goes behind the wheel well plastic has a retainer clip attached to the body; this does not pop out. Broke one side, figured out on the other that you can open it by twisting on it w/ some pliers. The wheel well retainers with the button in the middle have grooves in the button sides that allow pulling like a nail to release the shaft (the top ones without the button just pull out).

My difficulty removing the shock mount bolt was because I didn't realize the little bit of tension left when the wheels are dangling was from the LCA bushings, not the coil spring. Pushing down (rather than up) on the hub/knuckle relieves this tension and allows easy sliding of the bolt.

Getting the outside nut back on the MC was a pain. Joegr mentioned a trick on another thread using a paper towel to get a socket to stick; I used this and shoved both nuts (single would go too deep into the socket to catch) into a paper-lined socket so that I could thread it back on with the wobble extensions (no way to get a hand in there without removing the cross-brace).