No start... no crank, no click

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rawdr

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2004 LS V8, ~90k miles

My LS had a few starts that seemed slow, like a weak battery. It's been sitting a lot lately and my recent trips in it were very short distances. So I went to charge the battery but also wanted to investigate the parasitic draw. It was pulling steady .7A after settling (after disconnecting trunk light). I pulled one fuse at a time from trunk fuse box while watching the draw, did same with the relays.... Eventually realizing each SSP1-4 circuit was accountable for 140mA of the draw.... with everything reconnected I let it sit, couple hours later I came back and draw was milliamps, so essentially zero. So I concluded that was all probably normal operation and not responsible for draining my battery.

Next day I go to start it and get nothing.. no crank, no clicking whatsoever. Electronics/dash all seem to power up normally, lights on and seat moves, etc. Initially I was afraid I damaged something electrically which is why I mentioned all the above. With key on I plugged in an OBDII tool and its giving me P0183. Fuel Temperature Sensor A Circuit High Input?

Been reading some past threads so here is what I've done so far:

Fully charged the battery, no change. Also disconnected battery terminals for a period of time to fully reset the electronics, in case I did so in a strange/intermittent way while doing power draw tests. Also cleaned and reconnected the battery ground wire where it bolts to the body.

PATS light: stays solid for a couple seconds then turns off when car first gets powered... stays solid red while "cranking" key.

Cranking key does appear to be pulling some amperage though as voltage dips, basically to 12.0V or just under, then returns above 12.3V after stopping.

Starter fuse under hood and starter relay fuse in cabin look good. Starter relay under hood looks good - brought it inside and it tests out okay.

Just today got myself access to the starter terminals... B does read battery voltage, 12.5V or so. S and M have low resistance to ground when not cranking (wasn't sure if they should be floating? guess not).
While cranking: S goes up to about 10V. M just goes up to about 0.7V.

With those readings, is the starter definitely bad? Wasn't sure if there could still be other things happening or were just coincidence... especially confused about the P0183 code as I hadn't seen that one before.

Thanks for reading.
 
This is a very informative video from the ScannerDanner channel. They show you how to trouble shoot on a 2006 LS so its a must save video.
 
Yes, sounds like a bad starter. (Specifically, the solenoid on the starter is stuck or failed.) The low resistance to ground is from the coil inside the solenoid and from the starter motor itself. Think about it, both connect to ground at the other side of the circuit.

You can't do parasitic drain tests without waiting for the car to go to sleep. There's no need at all to remove the trunk light. It will go off before the car goes to sleep. You can also leave the doors open. (You just can't change anything while waiting for it to sleep.)
 
Thanks guys. I knocked on the starter previously... Last night I had a friend turn the key while trying again to knock on it, absolutely so sound or movement at all from it while doing that.

I'll order a new solenoid and give that a shot. Thanks again.
 
rawdr said:
Thanks guys. I knocked on the starter previously... Last night I had a friend turn the key while trying again to knock on it, absolutely so sound or movement at all from it while doing that.

I'll order a new solenoid and give that a shot. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, you can't just replace the solenoid on the LS. It is an integral part of the starter and the whole starter needs to be replaced.
 
joegr said:
AFAIK, you can't just replace the solenoid on the LS. It is an integral part of the starter and the whole starter needs to be replaced.
Click to expand...

You're right... Meant to say I'll order a new starter.
 
Btw, rockauto lists a few, from $60 up to $140 for motorcraft starter... When shopping for cooling system parts I know the consensus is aftermarket (Dorman) is junk and to go with factory.... Is there a similar opinion for starters or will cheaper options work as well at least for first few years? Any opinions on brands?
 
I ordered Motorcraft NSA6652N starter which was different from the factory part number but appeared to be compatible, and indeed it fit perfectly. Top bolt was tricky to reach and get on and off but eventually got it with some combination of wrenches/sockets. Car started right up instantly so that did the trick. So just wanted to say thanks everybody for the help.

Old starter was completely rusted on the inside part, not so on the body of it. But the two rubber things were crusty and broke off immediately or were already gone.. Is this a normal failure mode for starters?
Same pic is uploaded and linked here:

IMG_20171016_183255.jpg
 
I wouldn't think so. Was your LS ever in a flood?
 
joegr said:
I wouldn't think so. Was your LS ever in a flood?
Click to expand...

Nope, no flood. But I've battled coolant leaking and overheating issues in the past and again recently when I found oil in the coolant. Plastic cooling system components and some hoses were replaced around a year ago, and some more hoses again recently along with the oil cooler. I don't know how long it was being driven with oil in the coolant before another hose blew. In this time it developed a noise on startup that a mechanic told me sounds like engine bearings (sound happens on cold startup for a second or two then stops, presumably as oil pressure rises. Isn't heard or is much more brief if engine is restarted soon after getting warm).

So I've replaced the oil cooler and I've tried to run lots of water through the cooling system and gotten a lot of oil out... Of course there will still be oil lining parts of the system but only time will tell if it causes problems down the line. So that and the engine bearing noises basically have me in maintenance mode on this car, hopefully I can get more time out of it before I have to write it off.

Not sure if any of that can be related to the starter rusting.
 
Thank you for the detail in your self diagnosis, now I know I am not going crazy chasing the same issues. Much appreciated.
 
This is an old thread, but still seems valid today for my issues.

Is it possible that a starter solinoid may work one moment and not again the next several start attempts? Everything powers up for electronics, battery has great voltage readings. The car has now not started twice after attempting to several times within a 24 hr period each time.
 
JMC said:
This is an old thread, but still seems valid today for my issues.

Is it possible that a starter solinoid may work one moment and not again the next several start attempts? Everything powers up for electronics, battery has great voltage readings. The car has now not started twice after attempting to several times within a 24 hr period each time.
Click to expand...
I suppose anything is possible, but it seem unlikely. More likely is that the solenoid is working but the starter motor is not, due to a dead spot on the commutator. However if this is the case, you should hear some click.
Can you jack up the driver's side and safely get to the starter? Use a multi-meter or voltmeter to measure between the "S" terminal on the starter and a good ground (starter case, engine block, whatever) while someone turns the key to start. If you get 12V (or close to it) with the key at start, then you solenoid is indeed bad and it's time for a new starter.
 
Unfortunately, we took a chance on it yesterday, it started and my wife drove it to work. It would not start again since. It’s at her office. This is the first time we attempted to take it out since the last time it would not start (at a gas station in December) and I had it towed. After having it towed it apparently started right up for the service shop. Reluctantly I came back and picked it up knowing nothing was repaired. We left it in the garage on a battery tender since yesterday when we took a chance on it. We have both attempted to start it several times over the past day with no luck. It’s in a parking garage at the moment so no easy way to check it. Battery is putting out over 14 volts. What confused me is how it started just fine after paying to have it towed.
 
Can you get enough access to hit the starter with a hammer?
 
For kicks, I tried starting the car in neutral. The car started right up, immediately. The transmission was worked on last month, what may have been done/left undone that may be causing it to not start unless in neutral? I did have them replace the neutral safety switch. Perhaps it needs adjusting or the connection is not tight.
 
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While there is a neutral safety function, there is no separate neutral safety switch. I assume you mean the DTR (Digital Transmission Range) switch? There is a particular calibration that has to be done when installing it. There is a "special" tool needed to do it by the factory procedure, though I know some have done it without the tool and came out okay.

 
I think it’s the DTR/lever position sensor. It was done at an independent transmission shop. Perhaps they did not have the correct tools.
IMG_5835.jpeg
 
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If transmission work was recently done, and the shift/gear select cable was removed, that would mess with the DTR.

If you crawl under the car... halfway back you will see where the shift cable has a "sawtooth" adjustment section.

IIRC... You pop a clip loose, and lengthen or shorten the cable, and pop the clip back on.

When you first go to do this the car should be in park or neutral... and the same with the DTR... Before trying to adjust the cable length.

Play around with the adjustment, with the wife in the car.. moving the shifter. The cars... not yours.;)
 
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