Need More Horses

[northstar11]

Got a question. I'm looking for a cheap way to add horsepower to my caddi.(arent we all:shifty: ) I got a 1997 Eldorado, non ETC, the 275 horse.
Thought maybe some of you guys would have some tips for me.

Q1: Does the blower that claims to add power work at all?

Q2: I heard that computer chips can eventualy mess up the engine? True?

Q3: Why the heck does a 17 yr old kid need more then 275 horsepower?!

 

[MAC1]

Got a question. I'm looking for a cheap way to add horsepower to my caddi.(arent we all:shifty: ) I got a 1997 Eldorado, non ETC, the 275 horse. Thought maybe some of you guys would have some tips for me.

Q1: Does the blower that claims to add power work at all?

Gimmick.

There is not much, if anything, that can be done to a Northstar to increase horsepower unless you can afford to spend a lot of money. One person turbocharged his 96 N* but, to my recollection, it cost about 12 Grand. Many have tried a K&N air filter and a turbo exhaust with little or no benefit. The N* engine is finely tuned to maximize output. Therefore, modifying may actually decrease performance due to interferance with factory tuning.

Also, if you’re willing to install mods just remember that any resulting damage to the engine is your fault. I suggest that before you spend any money on anything that you diligently research this topic.

My only suggestion is to install a limited slip differential which will not increase horsepower but will provide overall better traction, better front tire wear and overall better handling.

Q2: I heard that computer chips can eventualy mess up the engine? True?

Another gimmick that doesn't work.

Q3: Why the heck does a 17 yr old kid need more then 275 horsepower?!

Because he wants to kill himself or someone else.

 

[ALBUNDY]

I have read that if you open up your exaust you could see some benefit also there is a guy thats sell bored out throttle bodies on ebay I just purchased one and will be installing it as soon as I can make some time, and I believe it dyno'ed about 7 to 12hp gain. What do you mean by cheap $10 or $300? BTW MAC1, Mark's site about his turbocharge STS is a great and yes it was a custom set-up and it cost$$$.

 

[MrWilson]

Question #4 does your silly fwd tranny stand a chance beyond stock hp.

 

[rocket5979]

Gimmick.

There is not much, if anything, that can be done to a Northstar to increase horsepower unless you can afford to spend a lot of money. One person turbocharged his 96 N* but, to my recollection, it cost about 12 Grand. Many have tried a K&N air filter and a turbo exhaust with little or no benefit. The N* engine is finely tuned to maximize output. Therefore, modifying may actually decrease performance due to interferance with factory tuning.


Hehehe. No wonder you came into my 12 second LS thread and talked crap! You dont know a sh1tting THING about performance! hehe. There are basic bolt ons such as CAI, tune/chip, exhaust and maybe some other particulars that are offered for most all vehicles, probably even the Caddy, that will increase horsepower over stock.

My only suggestion is to install a limited slip differential which will not increase horsepower but will provide overall better traction, better front tire wear and overall better handling.


Another gimmick that doesn't work.


Ummm, retuning, (aka advancing spark timing to take advantage of higher octane fuel, readjusting tranny solenoid shift pressure, shift points, on and on) can, will, and has netted good horsepower and better ET's out of MANY MANY MANY vehicles. In fact, that is the only way to really retune a modern day EFI vehicle. Do not fall for the Ebay resistor POS's though. Go for a real reflashing device or chip. I would have to know more about the particular Caddy computer itself before suggesting a more detailed way to go.


Because he wants to kill himself or someone else.

I do agree on this one. Once my kid reaches that age he will not have access to any type of fast or powerful car.

 

[MAC1]

Just because chips might work for some engines doesn't mean they will work for all engines. Many who have tried chips find themselves disappointed with the results.

The question was if there are any cheap mods that will work on a Northstar. Well, cheap mods could include a chip, exhaust and/or filter. Many with Northstars have tinkered with exhaust systems yielding some modest gains in HP. Spending $500 for a maximum 15HP gain may be worth it for some; however, not everyone achieves the same results or is satisfied. Here is a link that provides information about what some have done and the results:

http://www.caddyinfo.com/nsmodsummary.htm

I remember someone installed a K&N filter and exhaust and actually said it seemed to decrease performance. A Cadillac engineer said mods on a Northstar may throw off factory tuning such as air intake and back-pressure and thus not yield the kind of results hoped for. This is why I said to diligently research before spending money on mods.

I must say that I am reluctant to provide you information that may end up being part and parcel to foolish behavior which may ultimately get you killed. An automobile is not a toy! Many teens end up dead because they are too busy messing around and trying to impress their friends. If you mod your car don't go around trying to show your friends how much faster it is and end up killing yourself. I hope you don't end up a statistic because you found it too difficult to be responsible in front of your friends. Be Safe!

 

[MAC1]

Double post.

 

[northstar11]

I do agree on this one. Once my kid reaches that age he will not have access to any type of fast or powerful car.

Ok guys, to be honest, I had a 95 Mark 8 and I could beat out my buddies Mitsubishi Eclipse gts in 0-60, and top speed! How cool is that! Enyway, I'm woried bot my caddi, she has more pounds on her. So yea its a pride thing
Hey thanks Mac! , great advice! A couple of my brothers are firefighters, so I here alot bout teens that are stoned out of there minds, smashing there modified caviliers around trees. Makes you sick. Here is to a car guy that will never drive drunk. Safety first guys!!

 

[rocket5979]

Just because chips might work for some engines doesn't mean they will work for all engines. Many who have tried chips find themselves disappointed with the results.

The question was if there are any cheap mods that will work on a Northstar. Well, cheap mods could include a chip, exhaust and/or filter. Many with Northstars have tinkered with exhaust systems yielding some modest gains in HP. Spending $500 for a maximum 15HP gain may be worth it for some; however, not everyone achieves the same results or is satisfied. Here is a link that provides information about what some have done and the results:


I remember someone installed a K&N filter and exhaust and actually said it seemed to decrease performance. A Cadillac engineer said mods on a Northstar may throw off factory tuning such as air intake and back-pressure and thus not yield the kind of results hoped for. This is why I said to diligently research before spending money on mods.

MAC, I hate to say it but it seems like the Caddy mechanics are feeding you guys a line of BS over there. It is ok though, because that same type of mindset of "dont mess with it, it is mysteriously tuned from the factory to be perfect" goes on in the Ford side and Lincoln side too. Most mechanics and even Caddy, Ford, and Lincoln Master techs dont know their azz from a hole in the ground when it comes to performance mods for cars. All of those mods that the mechanic said would mess the tuning and backpressure is totally rediculous. A 4.6 V8 can stand to breath a bit, and they love to rev. The chips and flashers I am talking about access all banks of data in the factory PCM and can change everything within them and be safe about it as long as the person doing the tuning knows what they are doing. MAC that mechanic your referring to doesn't know a thing about cars besides what his manual tells him to think. I view a majority of mechanics merely as robots following instructions and turning wrenches, without actually understanding all facets of how a vehicle (especially late models) operates and also how to make more power throughout the entire powerband in that vehicle. For instance, a CAI is one of the best ways to gain more efficiency in a vehicle. The reason for doing this is because not only does it free a restriction up giving more power that way, but it also allows colder air into the engine which makes for more power per a/f ratio. What this all means is that a CAI will not only give good power, but it will also give better gas mileage too. A lot of other power mods have their pro's and con's but the con's are usually overcome pretty easily. MAC, this isn't really a bust on you, as you were just repeating what a mechanic told you. It is a bust on that mechanic for not even coming close to understanding what makes these newer cars really tick, not only from a mechanical standpoint, but also from technological and electronic points as well.

 

[MediumD]

bbob never said mods would throw off factory tuned components... just that the factory components are all well designed from the get-go and it's hard to do mods that are worthwhile. The "low hanging fruit has been picked by the factory already."

Anyway if you want a faster Northstar car here's what's available:
High stall torque convertor, limited slip differential (TC and LSD don't make power, just put it to the ground.) Exhaust is a help but the exh manifolds and crossover are still restrictive (extrude hone would help here.) That's all, really. If it's still not fast enough for you, spray it.

 

[rocket5979]

bbob never said mods would throw off factory tuned components... just that the factory components are all well designed from the get-go and it's hard to do mods that are worthwhile. The "low hanging fruit has been picked by the factory already."

Anyway if you want a faster Northstar car here's what's available:
High stall torque convertor, limited slip differential (TC and LSD don't make power, just put it to the ground.) Exhaust is a help but the exh manifolds and crossover are still restrictive (extrude hone would help here.) That's all, really. If it's still not fast enough for you, spray it.

I didn't say that MAC said that, but the Caddy tech dude he quoted did. The Caddy tech was wrong. Unless the Caddy came from the factory tuned for 93 octane fuel then there is power to be had there with advancing spark timing and running 93 octane fuel. Very rarely are factory intakes of a conical filter design to flow max air. Also very rarely are factory intake tubes as smooth and bend free as they should be. Factory exhausts are usually the same way too, though in some modern day vehicles they are getting much better in OEM form.

I can tell you definitively if a person can make more power with the simple bolt-ons like CAI and PCM tune if you provide me with two pieces of info for your Caddy:

What octane fuel do they reccomend using on a stock vehicle?
(Give an idea of what octane it is tuned for)

What does the stock intake look like?
(a.k.a. Take a pic of the stock intake box and tubing and post it up.)

Just trying to help, as I am sure that Cadillac left some slop in the performance of this car (as all manufacturers do, expecially luxo-car makers).

 

[ALBUNDY]

bbob never said mods would throw off factory tuned components... just that the factory components are all well designed from the get-go and it's hard to do mods that are worthwhile. The "low hanging fruit has been picked by the factory already."

Anyway if you want a faster Northstar car here's what's available:
High stall torque convertor, limited slip differential (TC and LSD don't make power, just put it to the ground.) Exhaust is a help but the exh manifolds and crossover are still restrictive (extrude hone would help here.) That's all, really. If it's still not fast enough for you, spray it.

bbob have posted on this site?

 

[MAC1]

Actually, to my distinct recollection, Bbob did mention that porting/polishing intake and exhaust manifolds, for example, could be detrimental to Northstar performance. As far as the exhaust manifold, he mention, to my recollection, that porting and polishing may interfere with “scavenging,” and reducing backpressure to a free-flow rate would not be beneficial.

As far as polishing the intake manifold, again, he said it would likely not produce significant results, if any, and would likely be incompatible with factory PCM programming (I believe he mentioned intake pressure and air speed into the manifold when throttle is opened to varying degrees). In the end, he was quite skeptical of both and went so far as to recommend not doing either. While I don't remember Bbob saying that, in no uncertain terms, porting and polishing would have deleterious affects; he did add his usual caveat that those who alter or modify factory parameters assume the risk of whatever may go wrong.

This is why I suggested to diligently research mods before spending money. It would appear that when it comes to modifying engines including Lincolns’ and Cadillacs,’ it's not a one size fits all situation.

 

[rocket5979]

This is why I suggested to diligently research mods before spending money. It would appear that when it comes to modifying engines including Lincolns’ and Cadillacs,’ it's not a one size fits all situation.

When it comes to getting more horsepower and torque out of engines it pretty much is a one size fits all type of scenario. There are particulars involved within every application, but the same principles remain. The talk of the P&P messing up the computer is rediculous. Last I knew the Caddy's were MAS cars anyways, so whatever additional airflow that would be coming through would only need to be calculated by the MAS sensor. After that the computer has a nice big long table of voltages/MAF counts that coincide with injector/fuel values. That is how you get your A/F right (very simplified example), which makes power (more airflow via less intake restriction/vacuum) and also makes a car run correctly in this scenario. Now had there been mention of someone messing with the TB on a vehicle then that can and has thrown off the idle control via the IAC valve. On the intake side there is no such thing as backpressure. Backpressure or loss of airflow on the intake side means less power, period. What you probably mean is intake runner length, not backpressure. Now, when you move things to the exhaust side of the equation is when you have your differences in torque and so on so forth due to messing with backpressure. Backpressure is only really an issue with smaller engined cars and also when sizing a custom turbo for a vehicle. Sometimes you have to consider backpressure for bigger trucks too so they retain a little more torque for getting off the line. The exhaust gas scavenging affect will be changed if a person decided to P&P their stock exhaust manifolds, but I don't know anyone that would do such a rediculous thing. That is what headers are for (if there even are any for the FWD Caddy's) though a tough fit. Modding cars is not rocket science, but it does take a true understanding of what accomplishes what. A lot of people, especially in these forums don't know that much so they take others words for gospel which is incorrect. When people don't understand car and how engines and engine management truly works is whe they error on the side of caution. That is fine, because that instinct probably saves a lot of people money if they attempted something they weren't good at. For those that are willing to put the time and money into their vehicles, there is A LOT to be gained in termms of power and performance. It just takes a little ingenuity on the owners part if their particular vehicle doesn't have a large aftermarket.

 

[MAC1]

On the intake side there is no such thing as backpressure. Backpressure or loss of airflow on the intake side means less power, period.

I was not inferring backpressure on the intake side, only the exhaust side. On the intake side, my recollection was that Bbob (a Cadillac engineer and part of the Northstar development team) frowned on porting the Northstar. This is simply my recollection. He discussed this issue in greater detail than what I am able to here. I'm sure if he were still posting, he would undoubtedly be able to make more sense or correct any misconceptions on my part. However, I still stand behind my original statements regarding porting and polishing Northstar intake and exhaust manifolds. Obviously, you have a different view. I'm not qualified to discuss the intricacies of performance modifications so I am certainly not in a position to argue. If you know someone who has ported and polished a Northstar and has succeeded in gaining better performance while maintaining engine stability, I would like to hear about it.

It would be interesting to hear from those who have successfully modified a Northstar beyond the typical airbox and exhaust pipe/muffler mods, which provide little performance increase. From what I have seen via the Internet, not many modify the Northstar. I have not seen a site discussing, for example, a performance throttle body (as one probably does not exist for the Northstar), porting/polishing, or supercharger or turbo. I know of only one person (Mark) mentioned by ALBUNDY above, who has successfully installed a turbocharger on his 96 STS. Another company, XMS, attempted to market a supercharger for the Northstar but was unsuccessful because they were unable to reprogram the PCM. However, XMS has modified a few Cadillacs’ including a 2000 Seville STS, which can accelerate to 60mph in 5.85 sec. (stock 6.7 sec.) with mods. Though they do not discuss what mods were installed.

 

[rocket5979]

It would be interesting to hear from those who have successfully modified a Northstar beyond the typical airbox and exhaust pipe/muffler mods, which provide little performance increase. From what I have seen via the Internet, not many modify the Northstar. I have not seen a site discussing, for example, a performance throttle body (as one probably does not exist for the Northstar), porting/polishing, or supercharger or turbo. I know of only one person (Mark) mentioned by ALBUNDY above, who has successfully installed a turbocharger on his 96 STS. Another company, XMS, attempted to market a supercharger for the Northstar but was unsuccessful because they were unable to reprogram the PCM. However, XMS has modified a few Cadillacs’ including a 2000 Seville STS, which can accelerate to 60mph in 5.85 sec. (stock 6.7 sec.) with mods. Though they do not discuss what mods were installed.

As such is the life for 99% of us luxury car owners out there wanting better performance. If I waited for the aftermarket to catch up to where I want it to be I would not have a Kenne Bell 2.2 supercharged Explorer and I would not be turning the times that I am with the Lincoln LS either. I guess what I am trying to say is that there comes a time when a person has to take matters into their owns hands. This is assuming that person actually knows what they are doing.

 

[ALBUNDY]

I was not inferring backpressure on the intake side, only the exhaust side. On the intake side, my recollection was that Bbob (a Cadillac engineer and part of the Northstar development team) frowned on porting the Northstar. This is simply my recollection. He discussed this issue in greater detail than what I am able to here. I'm sure if he were still posting, he would undoubtedly be able to make more sense or correct any misconceptions on my part. However, I still stand behind my original statements regarding porting and polishing Northstar intake and exhaust manifolds. Obviously, you have a different view. I'm not qualified to discuss the intricacies of performance modifications so I am certainly not in a position to argue. If you know someone who has ported and polished a Northstar and has succeeded in gaining better performance while maintaining engine stability, I would like to hear about it.

It would be interesting to hear from those who have successfully modified a Northstar beyond the typical airbox and exhaust pipe/muffler mods, which provide little performance increase. From what I have seen via the Internet, not many modify the Northstar. I have not seen a site discussing, for example, a performance throttle body (as one probably does not exist for the Northstar), porting/polishing, or supercharger or turbo. I know of only one person (Mark) mentioned by ALBUNDY above, who has successfully installed a turbocharger on his 96 STS. Another company, XMS, attempted to market a supercharger for the Northstar but was unsuccessful because they were unable to reprogram the PCM. However, XMS has modified a few Cadillacs’ including a 2000 Seville STS, which can accelerate to 60mph in 5.85 sec. (stock 6.7 sec.) with mods. Though they do not discuss what mods were installed.

I'm not sure a 80mm TB for a N* can be considered a performance TB but if it is trust me it does exist .

 

[CadillacETC1997]

Question #4 does your silly fwd tranny stand a chance beyond stock hp.

our silly fwd tranny has been proven to handel over 500 hp take a look at mark99sts's web site he has a turbo 1998 STS that would blow most saleens out of the water

 

[ALBUNDY]

I believe this is the link to his site.

http://www.markonemtg.com/marks99sts/id3.html

 

[CadillacETC1997]

thanks Al much yep thats it

ohh and FYI when has any lincoln sounded like this and have a legal exhaust for only 180 bucks....

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...n=60FFBFC2-1019-72F7-E07C107B3CC9D48311418724

yes before you ask that is me and MY car and i did everything on it myself i work at an exhaust shop and am very good at designing exhaust systems for hp increase while keeping backpressure for torque as well

 

[ALBUNDY]

thanks Al much yep thats it

ohh and FYI when has any lincoln sounded like this and have a legal exhaust for only 180 bucks....

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...n=60FFBFC2-1019-72F7-E07C107B3CC9D48311418724

yes before you ask that is me and MY car and i did everything on it myself i work at an exhaust shop and am very good at designing exhaust systems for hp increase while keeping backpressure for torque as well

Car sound sweet :Beer . You know I am also looking for a shop to redo my exaust too. I hope I find one that will gives me reasonable price. How much does your shop charge to do a cat back system from the crossover pipe? I'm just looking for some figures so that I don't get raped. BTW do you think we should post Mark's site in the STS's forum?

 

[rocket5979]

ohh and FYI when has any lincoln sounded like this and have a legal exhaust for only 180 bucks....

I am quite sure that a Mark8 fella could post their exhaust video and sound every bit as tough. While it does sound tough and all, it is nothing super special about the meanness of that Caddy exhaust. Pretty much any V8 can sound like that. I am not trying to disrespect your Caddy, but you clearly underestimate the Mark8 crowd. And lets face it, the Mark8 crowd has WAAAAAY larger of a racing following than the Caddy does.

 

[ALBUNDY]

rocket5979 have you ever been to cadillacforums.com/forums? There is a forum called Northstar Performance and Technical Discussion where the performance aspects of the N* are discussed. I'm sure Mac1 & CadillacETC1997 have been there. I only ask because I know there are all types of Caddy Techs, Performance Techs, Forum member...etc who would really be interested on your take on the N*. I'm not trying to take you away from this forum, I just feel as Mac1 said we're not in a position to argue the intricacies of N* performance but I'm sure where I lack some of them don't. I would really like to know if what your saying about the improving the N* is true threw some N* disccusion with people who are at your level of understanding. Thanks

 

[CadillacETC1997]

Believe me the Caddy N* crowd has just as much following as the Mark. We are only growing now due to the advent of the rwd N*. Yes an Eldo isnt really as modable as a Mark but i learned to drive on a 93 ETC (my dads old car) and i fell in love. If i want to be totally outragious i have my 83 trans am pace car i can rod out and mod to hell. I wanted an exhaust that would def let ppl kno i have 300 HP but not attract every cop and highway patroll officer from 5 miles away when im WOTing.

Al in answer to your question my cat back cost me 180 bucks installed reason being i work at an exhaust shop. The tips cost 80 and the mufflers cost 100, he gave me the piping for free, i bent it and wit some help welded it up. Im very proud of how it sounds when considering how much i have paid for it.

 

[rocket5979]

rocket5979 have you ever been to cadillacforums.com/forums? There is a forum called Northstar Performance and Technical Discussion where the performance aspects of the N* are discussed. I'm sure Mac1 & CadillacETC1997 have been there. I only ask because I know there are all types of Caddy Techs, Performance Techs, Forum member...etc who would really be interested on your take on the N*. I'm not trying to take you away from this forum, I just feel as Mac1 said we're not in a position to argue the intricacies of N* performance but I'm sure where I lack some of them don't. I would really like to know if what your saying about the improving the N* is true threw some N* disccusion with people who are at your level of understanding. Thanks

I run into people that on a daily basis they take a GMC, Ford, and so on tech's word as gold and that is not true. Then what usually happens is that the techs word get retranslated here in the forums (all forums not just LVC) and that is where other people start to limit their cars potential. When they believe that modifying a stock computer tune will not have any chance of netting more horsepower or as least a faster more responsive vehicle is when car modding has lost. Before the actual databases for the LS's were cracked people said the same exact things about these cars too. Anything new to the market that is not understood very well gets treated like an infant child and thus doesn't get to see its true potential. There are A LLLLLOOOOOT of waaaay overly conservative people on forums such as these that don't understand the true potential of slightly modded vs stock cars. Very VERY rarely will a person ever see a stock car that cannot go anywhere in terms of additional performance. There is always a decent amount of slop left in there to keep manufacturing costs low and also to provide less of a beating to the stock drivetrain so it lasts as long as possible (past the warranty period) before anything can go wrong. They error on the side of caution with all production cars. That margin is usually quite large, especially in the luxury car department because they know they will have to answer to pizzy ol grandma and gramps if their car all of a sudden does anything out of the ordinary (shifts a little firm) or, even worse, dies.

While modern day cars dont have as much slop built into their performance as they did in the yesteryear, they still have much to be gained by the simpler standard bolt ons and computer re-tunes.

If someone will provide me with a picture or two of the stock Northstar intake and tell me what octane of fuel the manufacturer reccomends to use in those cars (provided under gas cap and usually in car manual) then I will be able to tell you right there if there is anything further to be had with the performance gains of a CAI and tune to advance spark timing, let alone stuff like transmission shift line pressure, and tranny shift point modification too.

Sorry for the long post. Please don't feel like I am trying to put Lincoln above Caddy because that isn't the case at all here. I just think that A LOT of people, both Caddy and Lincoln types alike (among many others), need to really dig deep to understand the true power/performance potential that is waiting to be unlocked in their stock vehicles.