LS won't start. Help!

[Dverenich]

Well, I have a 2006 Lincoln LS V8. The car used to start with no problems. About a month or so ago I brought it to a shop to have some work done. They finished the work and said the car "wouldn't start". The battery did die while they did work to it so I didn't think to much of it. Towed it home, Charged the battery still nothing. The PATS light kept blinking very fast and all it did was turn over but not fire up.( I took the back seat off to listen for the pump to kick on and it didn't) After some research on the internet everything pointed to the key needing to be reprogrammed. So I tow the car to get the keys reprogrammed and still....nothing. Same turning over but no firing up. So now I am checking every single fuse and I find a set of keys in the quarter panel hidden. (Owner prior to me) I tried those and as soon as I turned to "on" position the pump kicked on and she started. Now later that day she would get back to her old self. Start and then not start. Fuel pump would kick on and then not kick on. So today, (3 days later) nothing at all. Just turning over that's all. Fuel Pump does not kick on, I've tried both sets of keys and nothing. The light is blinking fast at "on" position, and then at times doesn't blink, but the pump is not firing up. I have tried a new battery and almost everything I could think of. Sorry for the long story that may not make sense to some, but I am willing to try anything at this point.

Thanks Ahead of time!!

 

[joegr]

Do you have remote start? This isn't adding up.

A PATS issue will stop the starter from even turning. However, a comms issue or a PCM power issue might explain it. You need to turn the key on and leave it on until the rapid PATS light flashing stops. Once it stops the rapid flash, it will flash out a two digit code a few times, something like 1-6. Count that out and post it back to this thread. That could help a lot.

Whoever you towed the car to to reprogram the keys ripped you off. There's no way to reprogram them without erasing all existing keys from the PATS module. This means that if they had done it, the hidden keys that you found would not have worked at all. They must have just put one key in after another, just like you could have done at home without towing it. And just like it would have been for you, it did nothing. If they had connected a scan tool and put it in secure mode and then added your keys back in, the other keys you found later would not have worked.

You need to change out your battery now. If you don't believe me, go have it load tested. Be sure to replace with the OEM battery with the vent tube connection. Believe it or not, the correct battery from the dealer does not cost any more than a correct battery from anywhere else. The LS is very very picky about the battery being in good shape.

 

[Dverenich]

Do you have remote start? This isn't adding up.

A PATS issue will stop the starter from even turning. However, a comms issue or a PCM power issue might explain it. You need to turn the key on and leave it on until the rapid PATS light flashing stops. Once it stops the rapid flash, it will flash out a two digit code a few times, something like 1-6. Count that out and post it back to this thread. That could help a lot.

Whoever you towed the car to to reprogram the keys ripped you off. There's no way to reprogram them without erasing all existing keys from the PATS module. This means that if they had done it, the hidden keys that you found would not have worked at all. They must have just put one key in after another, just like you could have done at home without towing it. And just like it would have been for you, it did nothing. If they had connected a scan tool and put it in secure mode and then added your keys back in, the other keys you found later would not have worked.

You need to change out your battery now. If you don't believe me, go have it load tested. Be sure to replace with the OEM battery with the vent tube connection. Believe it or not, the correct battery from the dealer does not cost any more than a correct battery from anywhere else. The LS is very very picky about the battery being in good shape.

Ok I have a brand new battery. Code that flashes after the 7 blinks. 1-2 slow,3-7 little faster.
I talked to the locksmith and he told me that when they program keys for FORD that they "add" a key they do not remove the previous keys as they would for a Honda, toyota etc.

I was also told that it could be a dysfunctional computer, if that were the case what computer would it be? I have a parts car and have access to pretty much any spare part.


Thank You!!

 

[1LoudLS]

I was also told that it could be a dysfunctional computer, if that were the case what computer would it be?

However, a comms issue or a PCM power issue might explain it.

so you went from having a car that never had any problems starting, then immediately after taking it to a shop to have "some work done" it wouldn't start correct?

I dont know if I would call that a dysfunctional computer as I would call it a damaged computer. sounds like that shop broke your car... I would definitely be having them get it fixed. the only place I would have had it towed was straight to the dealer to be repaired (on their dime!)

 

[joegr]

...I talked to the locksmith and he told me that when they program keys for FORD that they "add" a key they do not remove the previous keys as they would for a Honda, toyota etc....

You said that you had them "reprogram the keys." If, instead, you just had them add a new key, then that is right, you just add and don't erase any old ones. You could have done this yourself, of course. It's in the owner's manual. You just put in two working keys, one after the other (you turn the ignition on and off the right number of times), and then you put in the new key. You really paid someone to do that for you?

Reprogramming keys, absolutely does erase all old keys, so they didn't do that.

 

[Dverenich]

You said that you had them "reprogram the keys." If, instead, you just had them add a new key, then that is right, you just add and don't erase any old ones. You could have done this yourself, of course. It's in the owner's manual. You just put in two working keys, one after the other (you turn the ignition on and off the right number of times), and then you put in the new key. You really paid someone to do that for you?

Reprogramming keys, absolutely does erase all old keys, so they didn't do that.

I did pay because after talking with the Ford dealer numerous time they told me the key needed to be reprogrammed which was not the case at all.

 

[Dverenich]

so you went from having a car that never had any problems starting, then immediately after taking it to a shop to have "some work done" it wouldn't start correct?

I dont know if I would call that a dysfunctional computer as I would call it a damaged computer. sounds like that shop broke your car... I would definitely be having them get it fixed. the only place I would have had it towed was straight to the dealer to be repaired (on their dime!)

Well this was not a dealer they are more of a shop that did welding, body work and other crap for me. The car sat there for a long time before actually being worked on.
Also the guy that did my keys told me that some fords after sitting with a bad battery for a while will "fry" some computers especially in the LS. I need to know what computer could go bad like I said I have every spare part I need. I don't want to bring it back and forth I am capable of doing the work myself, all they did is weld. So if there is a certain computer that has something to do with starting situation I need to know that.

 

[Dverenich]

You said that you had them "reprogram the keys." If, instead, you just had them add a new key, then that is right, you just add and don't erase any old ones. You could have done this yourself, of course. It's in the owner's manual. You just put in two working keys, one after the other (you turn the ignition on and off the right number of times), and then you put in the new key. You really paid someone to do that for you?


Reprogramming keys, absolutely does erase all old keys, so they didn't do that.

So the code that I mentioned? Does that help? what does it mean? I don't car much for the key situation as that is not the problem because it starts then doesn't off and on...... Thank You

 

[LS4me]

Well this was not a dealer they are more of a shop that did welding, body work and other crap for me. The car sat there for a long time before actually being worked on.
Also the guy that did my keys told me that some fords after sitting with a bad battery for a while will "fry" some computers especially in the LS. I need to know what computer could go bad like I said I have every spare part I need. I don't want to bring it back and forth I am capable of doing the work myself, all they did is weld. So if there is a certain computer that has something to do with starting situation I need to know that.

They welded on your car? Maybe they used the wrong ground and fried your PCM. It worked before and not after????? Sounds like their fault!

 

[joegr]

1. It's bull that any computer in the car would go bad because of the battery being disconnected or drained. You know what will fry a computer? Welding without the correct preparations and grounding in the correct locations.
2. You didn't read the codes correctly at all. There are some youtube videos on how. Turn the key on. The light (if there is a problem) will flash very rapidly for about a minute. It doesn't change speed. After the rapid flash, it will stop and then flash out a two digit code a few times. There's no difference in speed of flashes between the two digits, it's just that there will be a pause between the two groups of flashes.

You are trying to save money by not using someone who knows about this car, and it is costing you money instead.

 

[LSV8FAN]

When you don't hear the pump running, check that the shut-off switch located in the driver's footwell, behind the kick panel doesn't need to be reset.

 

[Dverenich]

They welded on your car? Maybe they used the wrong ground and fried your PCM. It worked before and not after????? Sounds like their fault![/QUOTE
It worked after but like I said it was a on/off situation were before it always started. I will try to replace the PCM.

 

[Dverenich]

When you don't hear the pump running, check that the shut-off switch located in the driver's footwell, behind the kick panel doesn't need to be reset.

\

Hey, I checked that numerous times. Thanks for the input. I don't get why the fuel pump would kick on and not 3 starts apart.

 

[Dverenich]

1. It's bull that any computer in the car would go bad because of the battery being disconnected or drained. You know what will fry a computer? Welding without the correct preparations and grounding in the correct locations.
2. You didn't read the codes correctly at all. There are some youtube videos on how. Turn the key on. The light (if there is a problem) will flash very rapidly for about a minute. It doesn't change speed. After the rapid flash, it will stop and then flash out a two digit code a few times. There's no difference in speed of flashes between the two digits, it's just that there will be a pause between the two groups of flashes.



The light flashes rapidly for about a minute, after that it does exactly the following. Flashes 2 times then pauses then flashes 5 times. I didn't know about the pause before.
Thanks for the help! I just want to get to the bottom of it, like I was saying I have every part on hand that I need so won't be a problem to change something that may need to be changed...

 

[joegr]

I can't find a lamp fault code of 25 for the LS PATS.

 

[Dverenich]

I tried a different PCM today and same story, Fuel Pump does not kick on engine does not turn over. Any help or ideas would be appreciated!

 

[Dverenich]

I tried a different PCM today and same story, Fuel Pump does not kick on engine does not turn over. Any help or ideas would be appreciated!

Update: I put the original PCM back. So I go and try to start the car for the heck of it. Nothing. So I grab a Battery Charger and put it in "start" mode. The car turns over now but the fuel pump Still will not kick on. The weird part is I am using a BRAND NEW battery. Now I need to figure out why the fuel pump will not kick on and why do I need a battery charger hooked up to get her to turn. Thank You

 

[joegr]

I tried a different PCM today and same story, Fuel Pump does not kick on engine does not turn over. Any help or ideas would be appreciated!

Just so you know, the starter and the fuel pump will remain locked out with any replacement (new or used) PCM until a good scan tool is used to put the PCM and PATS into secure mode and the PCM, PATS, and your keys are all married together.

 

[Dverenich]

Just so you know, the starter and the fuel pump will remain locked out with any replacement (new or used) PCM until a good scan tool is used to put the PCM and PATS into secure mode and the PCM, PATS, and your keys are all married together.

Ok, now I was also told that if this was a PATS issue the engine will not turn at all? Is that true?
Also, Like I was saying earlier the car did start then didn't on a few occasions. Now if the PCM was bad wouldn't the car just not start to begin with.(this is all post repair and welding) The pump would kick on 2 out of 10 turns, now its just not kicking on at all. Why would it start turning with a jumper hooked up to it? Even if the battery is brand new?

Thanks once again!

 

[1LoudLS]

Now if the PCM was bad wouldn't the car just not start to begin with.

depends on exactly what the failure is and how bad its fried. some bad PCMs could keep the car from running at all, some bad PCMs may just have a small problem and may just have one or two symptoms (like damage from prolonged use of a bad coil and now the PCM is causing a miss on a good coil...)

Why would it start turning with a jumper hooked up to it? Even if the battery is brand new?

apparently because the new battery is too dead (probably from all the time the car has been worked on/trying to get started with out the motor being on and charging the battery back up)

 

[Dverenich]

depends on exactly what the failure is and how bad its fried. some bad PCMs could keep the car from running at all, some bad PCMs may just have a small problem and may just have one or two symptoms (like damage from prolonged use of a bad coil and now the PCM is causing a miss on a good coil...)

apparently because the new battery is too dead (probably from all the time the car has been worked on/trying to get started with out the motor being on and charging the battery back up)

The new battery is a battery I picked up this morning from Advanced Auto Parts. So does PCM control if the Fuel pump kicks on or not?

 

[joegr]

Ok, now I was also told that if this was a PATS issue the engine will not turn at all? Is that true?...

Yes, when it is correctly functioning.

 

[joegr]

The new battery is a battery I picked up this morning from Advanced Auto Parts. So does PCM control if the Fuel pump kicks on or not?

Be warned that you really should use the OEM battery with the hydrogen vent tube connection. Even if you don't wind up with a flash fire in the trunk and cabin, the corrosive gases venting will eventually do bad things to the electronics in the trunk.

The PCM sends commands to the REM (Rear Electronics Module, it's in the trunk by the trunk light) not only to turn the fuel pump on, what also what power level to run the fuel pump at. This is how the fuel pressure is regulated. The REM turns on a relay in the trunk relay box to provide positive power to the fuel pump. (The relays and the relay sockets have been known to fail, especially if the wrong battery is installed.) The REM electronically controls the ground (negative power) to the fuel pump. It uses PWM to control the pump speed.