Let's Talk About Illegal Aliens.

eL eS said:
I would pass that test any day of the week.

I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?
 
This web site does not have a spellchecker. It is bad form to rip on spelling issues.
 
barry2952 said:
This web site does not have a spellchecker. It is bad form to rip on spelling issues.

:I

It's interesting to notice how people will pick on an intangible item to try and discredit someone, in logic it would be considered a Fallacy.

Many of the early members of this site addressed the issue of trying to discredit someone because of a simple spelling mistake.

Bob - Spelling is irrelevant to the point that you are trying to get across. Don't worry about your spelling.
 
mespock said:
:I

It's interesting to notice how people will pick on an intangible item to try and discredit someone, in logic it would be considered a Fallacy.

Many of the early members of this site addressed the issue of trying to discredit someone because of a simple spelling mistake.

Bob - Spelling is irrelevant to the point that you are trying to get across. Don't worry about your spelling.


I was pointing out a pronunciation issue, has nothing to do with spelling. Heck, our own illustrious Mr. Bush has trouble with that one.


PS, Bob and I go way back, from the days of Crusin' Van Nuys Blvd, hangin' the BA's, "Firetruck"... etc.
 
It was still bad form. We all knew what he meant.
 
barry2952 said:
I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?

Barry, the answer to your question is quite simple.
Immigrants have two stigmas that they will never shake free of.
1, By definition, they are immigrants(illegal or not), and being an immigrant means they are in no position to be versed in the laws or history of this country thus, the learning process for them needs to be stricter.
2, The fact that we have such a large population of illegal immigrants , they are, for lack of better terms, grouped into one basket.
If one group of immigrants are here illegally, it is felt (even though it may not be true) all are here illegally.
I would venture to say, that is the thinking of most Americans today.
 
barry2952 said:
I doubt that I would. It's interesting that they let you out of high school without the same knowledge required of immigrants.

My wife tutors all types of students in sign language, math and English as a Second Language. After years as a college professor she finds it much more rewarding. I've listened to what it takes to become proficient in English. Although I speak and write pretty well I know virtually none of the rules.

Why are immigrants held to a much higher standard than we hold our high school graduates?


Funny you mention education. Greenspan touched on the decline in our education today on cspan and its impact on the nations economic stability.

He pointed out that k-4 everything seems to be done exceptionally well. 5-12 he pointed out that there has been a great decline in our education system for decades and that we are falling very far behind the international community.

He confessed that no one seems to be able to find the proper metrics to properly measure why. The decline in education seems to have stumped even the brightest policy makers.

I for one stay involved with mychildrens education and challenge them on a daily basis on things they have learned both at home and at school. Based what my neighbors that are teachers in the public school system many parent expect the system to take the lead in education. Our sons teacher expressed similar sentiment.

My wife and I hold ourselves more accountable for our childrens education than the government. I suppose if more parents realized that they need to be and remain involved the outlook would be better.
 
I have no children so I have no first hand knowledge but I did hear a teacher blame the parents for doing way too much for their children. I never, ever, see kids on bikes getting from point A to point B anymore. The parents schlep them everywhere. The schoolbusses are virtually empty. The young people I employ seem to have no problem solving skills because they never had to do anything for themselves.

Could this be the root of the problem?
 
I listened to some commentary a few months ago that addressed how parents in recent decades taught or disciplined their children to be more of a team member rather than a team leader. So the culture has been to teach ones child/children to just fall in line rather than be innovative. There has been a compensation of sorts to adjust for the over achievements of the country.
 
An illegal alien couldn't take my job, so I'm not worried. People who have low paying low skilled need to worry. What businessman wouldn't rather pay $5 a day for a hard worker vs $15 ph for someone who wants vacation and benefits to do farm work?
Plus an illegal alien is a human being and the world is getting smaller. Make yourself better and look out for yourself. If you depend on the gov't, you'll be an angry person. :N
 
eL eS said:
Funny you mention education. Greenspan touched on the decline in our education today on cspan and its impact on the nations economic stability.

He pointed out that k-4 everything seems to be done exceptionally well. 5-12 he pointed out that there has been a great decline in our education system for decades and that we are falling very far behind the international community.

One problem when comparing the US education system to other countries is that by age 12 many countries begin to track their children. Those not making the grade are moved into other programs to get them ready for the labor force. Those who make the grade are promoted to further education.

In the United States we make a K-12 education mandatory for all our children.

Another problem that arises at age 12 and for anyone who has had a teenager it is called an attitude. Now something that many people don't understand is that in a classroom with 25 to 25+ students not all the students want to be their or want to learn. No matter how creative you can be you can't make all of the students learn.

eL eS said:
He confessed that no one seems to be able to find the proper metrics to properly measure why. The decline in education seems to have stumped even the brightest policy makers.

Well there is the problem "Policy Makers" (businessmen and women) many of these guys have no clue about what it is like in a school or classroom today. "Policy Makers" are the educated and the ones who wanted to learn. "Policy Makers" don't understand those who don't use their time in school to better themselves. "Policy Makers" look at school children and see them all as the same, small people in school eager to learn and become adults. They don't realize that many children are worried about going home to an empty home with no parent to take care of them and the possibility of no food on the table. They don't realize that many of our school children fear the trip home, or who may be at home to meet them. "Policy Makers” forget to talk to the teachers who work in the schools who really know the children. Even though those liberal teachers who seem to be the scourge of the professional fields understand what is happening in the lives of their students. Teachers today don't only teach they spend more time raising their students than educating them. I can keep going on this but Joey doesn't have enough server space.

Oh and don't forget to throw in the divorce rate!! This is a big factor in the change in education.

eL eS said:
I for one stay involved with mychildrens education and challenge them on a daily basis on things they have learned both at home and at school. Based what my neighbors that are teachers in the public school system many parent expect the system to take the lead in education. Our sons teacher expressed similar sentiment.

Brovo! :Beer :wave Not everyone feels that way! And it is funny many who don't are very well to do.

eL eS said:
My wife and I hold ourselves more accountable for our childrens education than the government. I suppose if more parents realized that they need to be and remain involved the outlook would be better.

Keep it up and promote your efforts. Also go to your schools, participate in what you can. Support your children in all areas go to their events.

Volunteer at your school! We need all the help we can get.

Wisconsin is cutting the budget big time. School are laying-off teachers and cutting programs to meet the desires of the tax payers to lower their property taxes. Classrooms are becoming over crowded, and with all the issues that our children come to school with the more students in a classroom the less education is present.

Using one example my school district cut teaching positions this year because of budget cuts yet the administration all took $1500 to $2000 raises along with giving their support staff raises. How would that benefit education? Oh, and I haven’t received a raise for 4 years.
 
We have immigration laws for a reason. Thousands of peoples from around the globe bust their asses and file their paperwork and get less services than illegals. Growing up in one of the most diverse areas in this stupid state, I know because I speak to many legal immigrant citizens who tell me they get put on the backburner because of those here illegally. There have been immigration laws since 1787, and there always will be.

Our insurance rates in this region of Massachusetts are SKY HIGH because of illegals who stage accidents and commit other major crimes. After a huge police and Attorney General crackdown, it was discovered that most of the perpetrators of these felonies were not even legal US citizens. Those convicted of fraud were later deported, but WE are stuck with paying three times the state average becasue of them. So don't sit there and tell me that these criminals don't cause problems and that we should just let them over here.

And why can't they come over here legally? Is it money? NO- I viewed a documentary on illegals in which a woman paid $25,000 to smuggle over her kids; which fortunately failed. A month later, she paid again. Successful that time, but they were caught and later deported. So it's not money...

Either they're too LAZY to fill out all the paperwork and live by the rules, or someone did a little background check and found something that they didn't like and denied them entry to our country.

I don't give a rat's ass what the bleedinghearts say; the law is the law, period. If you don't play by the rules, you are a criminal, period. If you can't come here legally, don't come here at all. There needs no be some serious changes to our immigration polciies; such as a "tainted blood" law; in which children of illegal immigrants are considered illegal like their parents. Healthcare and benefits for illegals needs to be completely severed. Those who knowingly hire illegals to take advangtage of low-cost wages should be jailed, fined, and their businesses and other assets seized and auctioned.

I'm glad states like New Hampshire have begun to crack down on illegals. NH is charging criminals who are here illegally with criminal tresspassing charges, and of course, the liars in the monkey suits from the ACLU are there to back the illegals. Shame.
 
evillally said:
Those who knowingly hire illegals to take advangtage of low-cost wages should be jailed, fined, and their businesses and other assets seized and auctioned.

:I But....... GWB would rather re-classify them as "guest workers", reward the employers and put AMERICANs out of work. WTF??
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
:I But....... GWB would rather re-classify them as "guest workers", reward the employers and put AMERICANs out of work. WTF??

Yeah I absolutely do not approve of his handling of the illegals reffering to them as undocumented workers HA. If it crosses the fence like an illegal, obtains conterfit SS# like an illegal and evades immigration like an illegal by God it is an illegal. No grandfathering in and no coming back to try again.

Go through the proper procedures or do not pass go.
 
mespock said:
One problem when comparing the US education system to other countries is that by age 12 many countries begin to track their children. Those not making the grade are moved into other programs to get them ready for the labor force. Those who make the grade are promoted to further education.

Wow I did not know that. Man if that were to ever happen here good grief the fallout.

mespock said:
Another problem that arises at age 12 and for anyone who has had a teenager it is called an attitude. Now something that many people don't understand is that in a classroom with 25 to 25+ students not all the students want to be their or want to learn. No matter how creative you can be you can't make all of the students learn.

Yeah once they feel they do not want to or have to learn you will be hard pressed to tell them otherwise. Just look at the fit a 2-3 yr old can through.


mespock said:
Well there is the problem "Policy Makers" (businessmen and women) many of these guys have no clue about what it is like in a school or classroom today. "Policy Makers" are the educated and the ones who wanted to learn. "Policy Makers" don't understand those who don't use their time in school to better themselves. "Policy Makers" look at school children and see them all as the same, small people in school eager to learn and become adults. They don't realize that many children are worried about going home to an empty home with no parent to take care of them and the possibility of no food on the table.

Yeah by the time a caring person makes it into politics they have been long removed from what they started out to improve

mespock said:
They don't realize that many of our school children fear the trip home, or who may be at home to meet them. "Policy Makers” forget to talk to the teachers who work in the schools who really know the children. Even though those liberal teachers who seem to be the scourge of the professional fields understand what is happening in the lives of their students. Teachers today don't only teach they spend more time raising their students than educating them. I can keep going on this but Joey doesn't have enough server space.

My neighbors that teach have told me stories of having to either fear a child due to behavioral issues or have had to report apparent abuse of a child. One neighbor has become a foster parent and takes in children that are currently being held by the state while the parent gets his/her life back on track.

Some children never go back to the parents and end up in multitudes of foster homes and if they are lucky become adopted.

Even the process' of protecting children often end up being abusers f children.

mespock said:
Oh and don't forget to throw in the divorce rate!! This is a big factor in the change in education.

I can speak from experience from this. My brother and I were raised by my mother and our father never contributed anything not money, clothing, food or emotional support. It was tough for all three of us. It seems men get to get away with these selfish acts way too often. Even when the court orders it as in the case of our household.

These biological contributors need to be held accountable. Sometimes it is the mothers and they too need to be held accountable.


mespock said:
Brovo! :Beer :wave Not everyone feels that way!

Thanks for the applause but my reward is in knowing that I am doing everything I can as a parent to make sure they turn out right.

mespock said:
And it is funny many who don't are very well to do.
Yeah just look at teh TV for an hour and you will hear about some star, politician or athlete that either has gotten into trouble or have children that their nannies have raised have wound up in trouble. even the affluent are at risk.

It all comes down to personal responsibility for ones actions.


mespock said:
Keep it up and promote your efforts. Also go to your schools, participate in what you can. Support your children in all areas go to their events.

Volunteer at your school! We need all the help we can get.

I intend too! I have volunteered to attend field trips, take children to the library and do classroom readings.


mespock said:
Wisconsin is cutting the budget big time. School are laying-off teachers and cutting programs to meet the desires of the tax payers to lower their property taxes. Classrooms are becoming over crowded, and with all the issues that our children come to school with the more students in a classroom the less education is present.

Using one example my school district cut teaching positions this year because of budget cuts yet the administration all took $1500 to $2000 raises along with giving their support staff raises. How would that benefit education? Oh, and I haven’t received a raise for 4 years.

I have a very good friend that double majored in math and education and he too is having a hard time find a fulltime teaching opportunity. He has even submitted applications to schools in the least favorable districts. Here is a guy commited to teaching and he cannot find a job. The most he has gotten are fill in spots. Today he is delivering pizza! WTF is wrong with this world?


It sounds like you are well connected to education and possibly a teacher. I thank you and hope you do not get discouraged and quit.
 
And why can't they come over here legally? Is it money? NO- I viewed a documentary on illegals in which a woman paid $25,000 to smuggle over her kids; which fortunately failed. A month later, she paid again. Successful that time, but they were caught and later deported. So it's not money...

I highly doubt there is any truth in that. 50 grand? You think someone would pay that much just to bypass the hassle of filling out some documents? What country did they come from, were they like Saudi Arabian aristocrats or something?

I'm currently studying at UofC on my way to becoming an internist, so my perspective might be a little different since my job wouldnt be at risk, but I still think I have a valid opinion. How do you suppose we fix the problem? Kick them all out? It may sound good, but it's just not realistic. The first thing we have to do is get serious about border control, with extensive reform. I'm sure some of these low paying bussiness have an interest in letting illegals get through, so they could take advantage of the cheap labor. I agree with you about having these employers pay large fines and even possible jail time. As for those that are allready here, I heard of a bill coming out that would legalize a percentage of them who: are paying taxes, lived here a certain amount of time, and can pass an english comprehension test. They would also pay a 2000 fine and all back taxes. As you can see, that would generate billions of dollars for the government, which could be put into border control and efforts to deport the ones that don't meet the requirements to be legalized. Let's not forget that some of them should be allowed to stay, for instance I have read and actually know of someone that have been brought here when they were small kids, with no choice, and are not allowed any basic privileges we take for granted, like driving or attending college.
 
I highly doubt there is any truth in that. 50 grand? You think someone would pay that much just to bypass the hassle of filling out some documents? What country did they come from, were they like Saudi Arabian aristocrats or something?

It wasn't a total of $50,000, it was a total of $25,000. She was from Mexico. The documentary aired on CNN earlier this year.
 
I will admit up front to being a little less educated on the matter than some who have posted. But I know enough to make a couple points of my own.

My real big beef isn't with people who enter illegally, and then become legal, people who want to participate in the american way. People who want to be productive.

My beef are with two groups of people. Two groups that often overlap.

1) Those who come in illegally and then stay illegal.

My understanding of this situation is that Mexican law says that if you become a citizen of another nation, you lose your mexican citizenship. And what we consider poor, they consider rich. A man who saves up over his working years here a mere, say, $20,000 can go down to Mexico, and live it up style.

So what a lot of people are doing is finding menial jobs, living 20 to a house so that they can afford the house between the 20 incomes, and sending all their free money down to Mexico so that part of it can be used to improve the lives of their families, and part of it can be saved for their return. They come in here, get jobs, funnel all the money to mexico, then come retirement time, they return to the motherland wealthy.

Hmm, that doesn't sound so wrong, does it? Well, there's more to consider.

There is some truth to the whole "illegals stealing jobs" bit in that no, most comfy anglos wouldn't work hoeing cabbage for $6.00/hr. -BUT- were it not for the ready availability of illegal workers, that $6.00/hr job would be paying $12.00/Hr, and then suddenly you'd have more vanilla farm equipment. And that's also creating a ripple effect. The standard of living is going down, partially because of illegal immigrants.

Another problem with the illegal remainers is that none of what they make stays in our country. Sure, there's income tax, and sales tax, and sometimes property tax, but that's it. All the money they make that doesn't get exhausted on sustaining themselves goes down south.

The ugly truth of that is they are making parasites of themselves. They are robbing from America to support Mexico. They are leeching themselves and draining the blood. I've heard that the #2 source of revenue for Mexico is American incomes. If that's true, then this scenario I've just painted cannot possibly be a once in a while thing, but an epidemic! They're not contributing, they're cyphoning!

2) Those who refuse to learn the language, and expect us to learn theirs.

I've used this analogy once before on this forum and once before on another, but I think it's sooo effective:

"When you are in someone's house, you play by their rules. You don't come in and rearrange all of their furniture." -What do you think of that? I like it.

Well, imagine someone doing that to you in your house. How would you feel?! Well, lets take it one step further. Suppose their in your house uninvited? Imagine. Someone just walks through your back door, throught your entire house. Takes your bed and puts it in the kitchen, takes your stove and puts in your bathroom. Thinks it'd be great to put the toilet smack dab in the middle of your garage. (suspend disbelief for just one second) and fastens your car to your living room ceiling. Then has balls to yell to the misses "From now on, we will all take cream and sugar in our coffee! Wench!" Wouldn't you just be floored?! Well, imagine the cops come in, look at you, the flabergasted, violated home owner, then look over at the intruder lounging on the newly positioned filing cabinet and says to the intruder "here, let me help you", as he tips over your collection of fine china and sends it crashing to the floor?!

Well, that's basically what's happening in america. Many (though not all) of these illegals (uninvited house guests) are coming over and finding a little corner that they can establish themselves in, and then refuse to adapt to life in america (playing by the rules of the house) instead, they try to adapt america to themselves (rearranging the furniture) Their wanting america on their terms (Coffee! Now! With Salsa in it!) And politicians on the left (the cops) are trying to pass all these laws like making spanish the official language of america and all these rights for illegals, driver's licenses for illegals, free healthcare for illegals, happy easter cakes baked with love by the government and delivered to the front door of every illegal yada yada yada (siding with the intruder) and some of them are passing! (trashing the china cabinet) And the american citizenry at large (comprised of all races, incomes, ages, and genders) are the flabergasted, violated home owners who are forced to just watch all of this happen!

Now, the political right is guilty too, but in a different way. Both are after the votes and both are sacrificing integrity to acheive the votes (nothing new) but while the left is erring in that they are taking action to accomodate, the right is erring in not taking action to stop said accomodation. The left is guilty of action, and the right is guilty of innaction. All for the sake of votes.

Now, I've spoke so long of my grievances and concerns, I would like to clarify about a couple of things that do NOT bother me.

1)Legal Hispanics. They are of immense value to our country and their culture has helped shape our culture, but has never tried to trump it.

2)Illegals here working to become legal, working to become a permanent, contributing member of our society. My Uncle Eric married a cuban illegal 15yrs ago and she is legal and has been contributing to our society ever since. And despite the fact that they live in a spanish speaking neighborhood in queens NY, and my uncle speaks fluent spanish, and she could survive without needing to learn english, she did anyway and uses it every chance she gets.

And there are a lot like her. I have no beef with them except that they didn't come here legally, but in my mind, becoming legal is restitution enough so long as they contribute, and if you're gonna generalize hispanic people, you generalize them as very hard workers.

Now, about the border. I feel that they should make it harder for illegals to get in. Wait, even the ones who are working to become legal, permanent and productive? Yes, because by my estimation, the ones working on legality are in the minority, and you can't distinguish between the two at the border, so better to stop a few good ones in the name of stopping a whole bunch of bad ones, then to allow in a few good ones in at the expense of letting a whole bunch of bad ones in.

Should we resort to killing? Only as an absolute last resort. If it comes to it, then it comes to it, but I'm not sure that we've got to that point just yet and I would want to make absolutely certain that we have exhausted all other means of combatting illegal immigration.

On the terrorism thing. Bottling up the southern border is certainly not going to defeat all terrorism aimed at the U.S. But it does cut off one channel that it could be administered through. And cutting one leg off a centipede is better than not cutting one leg off a centipede.

One last thing. I'm convicted of something. Here I am saying that we need to stop these intruders from ruining our way of life, yet we are the decendents of those who ruined the lives of the native americans.... I'm not quite sure what to do with that.

There.. I am finished. (exhales)
 

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