I'm worried about Lincoln's direction....

2001LS8Sport

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Is it just me or does anyone else have the same concerns? With the demise of the Mark III and the LS, Lincoln seems to be moving further and further away from a performance perspective in their line up. Even the Aviator came with over 300 hp and a 32v engine and was a decent performer on the road. And it's gone too...replaced by the ugliest POS I have ever seen. When it comes time to trade my wife's Aviator, I will be going back to Ford and an Explorer and I will consider the new Tahoe SS by GM. 400 hp and AWD for $40,000. With GM on the rise with their performance products and Cadillacs sales increasing with their performance vehicles, I can't see the logic to Lincoln's thought process. I honestly feel that if they don't get some new leadership in that division, it will go the way of Oldsmobile...and be where Mercury is now...in very bad shape. What really upsets me is Lincoln had the opportunity to build a real world class contender in the performance sedan market with the LS. Another 125 hp and it would have taken some seriously expensive iron to compete against it. And they had everything they needed sitting in the parts bins!! Yet they chose to ignore it. Yet they put that kind of hp in a Range Rover!!! I'm telling you...something's gotta change.
 
2001LS8Sport said:
Is it just me or does anyone else have the same concerns? With the demise of the Mark III and the LS, Lincoln seems to be moving further and further away from a performance perspective in their line up. Even the Aviator came with over 300 hp and a 32v engine and was a decent performer on the road. And it's gone too...replaced by the ugliest POS I have ever seen. When it comes time to trade my wife's Aviator, I will be going back to Ford and an Explorer and I will consider the new Tahoe SS by GM. 400 hp and AWD for $40,000. With GM on the rise with their performance products and Cadillacs sales increasing with their performance vehicles, I can't see the logic to Lincoln's thought process. I honestly feel that if they don't get some new leadership in that division, it will go the way of Oldsmobile...and be where Mercury is now...in very bad shape. What really upsets me is Lincoln had the opportunity to build a real world class contender in the performance sedan market with the LS. Another 125 hp and it would have taken some seriously expensive iron to compete against it. And they had everything they needed sitting in the parts bins!! Yet they chose to ignore it. Yet they put that kind of hp in a Range Rover!!! I'm telling you...something's gotta change.

Agreed. I have owned an Escort GT, Mustang, 3 Taurus SHO's, 2 Lincoln LS, and my wife has had 2 Ford Windstars.

She just bought a very nice used Nissan Murano, I have a Jeep Wrangler and my LS replacement will most likely NOT be a FOMOCO product.

They have stopped building the kind of cars I like. They are moving to a FWD platform (Volvo and Mazda 6) as the underpinnings for their new stuff. Contrast this choice with what Cadillac and Chrysler are doing.

It is obvious that the only car's that have the mix of performance and luxury I want from Ford are Jags (cant afford an Aston Martin). If I want to stay domestic I guess Caddy and Chrysler are my choices. If I look at Jags I might as well look at the Germans and Japanese too. Also I think the new Infiniti M45 is pretty close to what the LS should have become.

For gods sake, even the frumpy Avalon has more power than us.

Love my LS but probably the last Ford I ever own.
 
unfortunatly, ford , fordized volvo, I wouldn't mind if these cars went more towards the direction of actual volvo volvo's (rwd,turbo)
yes, that sentance may have been the worst one I have ever written.
Eamonn
 
FORD, like GM is over with. While Toyota, Hyundai and Honda bulid $2bil factories here in the States GM and FORD can not close factories fast enough! Both are losing millions per day. FORD is releaseing Corporate bonds every quarter that pay 7.8-8.3%. This would indicate they are just about over. (I have credit cards in my wallet that charge a fixed rate of 9%). They are out of free cash flow. So is GM.

GM will be purchased by Toyota, IF, and only IF, they can get the pension plan through bankruptcy cleanly. GM is watching United and Delta and others to see how efficiently they can bankrupt their pension plans. If all goes well, as it is now, GM should take a shot at bankruptcy in late 2006. If the pension plan is divested Toyota will scoop up GM, and will immediatly kill off all its lines but the most profitable and lucritive. Toyota would love to get into the truck business and crush FORD. The Toyota trucks are now made at the Nummi plant in Fremont california, which is a joint venture GM/TOYOTA plant of sorts already.

Toyota is very careful not to push GM over the edge because they don't want a customer/loyalist backlash, or as they put it; "...an Americanism emotional backlash" when Toyota takes it over.

FORD on the other hand is betting the farm on three MASSIVE off-shore plants. And they are going with a 2 platform assembly line operation/facility like Toyota. As these plants startup, there will be many cars that have to be dropped from the lineup. Always think in groupings when you think of FORD in 2006 and beyond. Example; at the Hermisillo plant in Mexico start thinking (Mazda/Ford 500 and Ford Fusion/Lincoln Zepher). Ford wants all manufacturing OFF-Shore as fast as possible so that it get its pension plan through bankruptcyand impact its suppliers and operations in a minimal way. with off-shore suppliers and manufacturing plants the "impact" to those operations can be minimal to non-existent if you file bankruptcy in the States. Ford is positioning itself for a 2007 bankruptcy. The unfortunate thing is that they may not make it? Various trading houses are starting to look at the Ford corporate bond rates and are concerned that Ford is closer to bankruptcy that we all think. One little downturn (ie; 9/11) incident and it may take them out. Its VERY close.

The issue with Ford is that there is no other company on the PLANET that could assume its debt and pension plan. It has a stable of overseas assembly plants making low volume cars that it has to support and its expensive. They are "FORDizing" Volvo pretty but all the other odd ball lines are so specialized that its hard to streamline them and get their production numbers up.

Ford is running a marathon, its running as fast as it can, to survive. All its free cash flow is being directed into off shore plants and facilitites, if this "plan" fails it will all overwith! Remember that it most countries Ford does NOT own the realestate or buildings that it uses! So they will have no asset base to sell off if they have to "fold up" any of these plants!

There are no suitors for FORD today, and FORD knows this. They MUST get all the US car plants closed (except the truck plants), and get into a 3-4 platform offering in low cost countries (LCC). In Hermisillo the fully burdened worker rate is $7.14/hr. In the States its near $40, or more. If they can pull this off and get the pension plan through bankruptcy in 2006-07-08 then they can be sold off and it may survive. But there is no room for error, its that close.

And we sit and talk about the LS and what offerings it will have next? It will have ZERO offerings that WE would like and appreciate! In fact, all of the Engineers that worked on the LS are now gone, or will be gone by July 2006, when the Wixom Lincoln plant closes. Its done. Toast!

What is Wixom going to build? The Ford GT? LOL Everyone says that the Wixom plant must stay open because it has a 3 year contract with the UAW? This is BS. What people don't know is that if FORD can show it is in financial trouble or files bankruptcy it can close ANY PLANT at any time!

People equate Fords success to the strong Mustang sales? Strong sales? While not a flop, but at the current rate of sales it will take FORD what...10 YEARS to recoupe the tooling and development costs of $900 million? Ford does not need stellar sales of any one car, it MUST have moderate sales and profitability across the line mix to generate an adequate EBITDA number to sustain operations. Currently it is not and there is no sign that in the near future it will.
 
Well Kelleyo, if you think her Murano is nice, then what are your thoughts on the new upcoming Aviator redesign?
 
captainalias said:
Well Kelleyo, if you think her Murano is nice, then what are your thoughts on the new upcoming Aviator redesign?

#1 Could she have gotten a slightly used redesigned Avaitor (25K miles) for $23,000?

#2 Is it available now? Her lease was up and had to get a new car.

If either of those answers are false it means nothing what I think of the new Aviator then doesn't it?

In other words, my wife needed a new car. She looked at what was available on the market. The new redesigned Aviator was not available.
 
Yeah... we pretty much cut our own throats...

I'm certain that this comment will piss somebody off, but here goes anyway...

I knew that the Big Three were in trouble, but not that bad. I guess the unions would rather make $40 an hour for two more years, and zero after that rather than come down and make a more reasonable number now, and moving forward. I'm sorry, I'm engineering myself and I don't even make $40 an hour... You can't pay unskilled labor that kind of money and expect to make a profit. Sorry.. Ain't gonna happen. I'm also sorry to say to the the workers, that yes, while you may do your job well, you're still not worth $40 an hour. I'm salaried, put it a lot more than 40 hours a week and put up with a lot more crap, and have way fewer benefits, and I somehow manage to make it to work every day.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fat at the top as well. But if you look at the numbers as far as how many are working under what group, there are a lot more people making outrageous rates for sweeping floors than there are making even more outrageous rates for trying to figure out how to keep the leaking ship afloat.

Sorry.. I'm just disapointed that good old American pride and know how has sold out to greed and laziness. We had better get our heads out of our cans before it's too late and we're ALL owned by somebody else.
 
Ken Motz....whether I....or anyone else agrees with you is moot to this post. That was one of the most well written and thought out posts I have ever read on any forum anywhere. I hope to God you're wrong.....
 
2001LS8Sport said:
Ken Motz....whether I....or anyone else agrees with you is moot to this post. That was one of the most well written and thought out posts I have ever read on any forum anywhere. I hope to God you're wrong.....


I agree with both of you. I just hope they get it sorted out, and fast...
 
I agree with most of what was said in this thread. There is a market for FWD fancy cars, but I'm definately not in it. I guess Ford has decided to try to compete more with Acura than the likes of Mercedes or BMW (hell, or Mopar for that matter).

I was raised a Mopar guy, but my last several cars have been Fords becuase I must have RWD. I had a '90 Crown Vic, '95 Mustang, '00 Mustang, '00 LS, but no more. My next car (in 2 weeks) will be a new Charger.

Why must Ford have both Mercury and Lincoln be rebadged Fords? That formula hasn't exactly resulted in them racking up the sales over the last 30 years. I just hope Mercury can survive.
 
Damn...Halloween and I was in a good mood too. :( I wish people would stick to buying American cars...even though Kleetus is right. I just visited family in Michigan and my uncle, who retired from a division of GM that was sold overseas, is probably going to lose his pension now and has to sell what he owns and downsize. I have relatives and friends who work at the big 3, and have other family that have businesses and jobs that rely on the US auto industry. If they fail, it will be worse than any of us think, I believe. :(

When in doubt, try to buy American. Then you can bitch about how poor the quality is like everyone else. :)
 
That would be sad if GM was purchased by Toyota.... but I think there would be an American public outcry if such a thing were to take place.
 
Dutch said:
I agree with most of what was said in this thread. There is a market for FWD fancy cars, but I'm definately not in it. I guess Ford has decided to try to compete more with Acura than the likes of Mercedes or BMW (hell, or Mopar for that matter).
.

Fomoco has stated Buick as the target for Lincoln.
 
Kelleyo said:
Fomoco has stated Buick as the target for Lincoln.

If that's the case, then Lincoln is in deep trouble. Why in the world would you target one of the slowest selling brands of cars there is? I would believe that Mercury is a better choice to go head to head with Buick. They both fit too...they are both dying a slow death.
 

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