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I Corinthians 15,verses 24-28 says that God has subjected all things under Christ's feet,but verse 28 makes clear that the Son subjects himself to the Father so God is over everything.
So if Jesus is Yahweh,then who is subjecting himself to whom? Jesus said who he is...........the Son of God.
John 17,verses 25 and 26 says: `O righteous Father,the world hath not known thee,but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.'

Sound like Jesus is praying to himself here? Nope! He was declaring Yahweh's name, the name of his God.
Remember Jesus said........`I am going my way to MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER. To MY GOD and YOUR GOD.' (capitals mine)
So Jesus is the second most powerful being in the universe and all heaven, but his Father is Yahweh,the MOST powerful.

don-ohio :)^)
 
Cammer,

I wasn't thinking,,, nor was I implying,,, that you were directing your post towards me. What I said... was just to re-inforce,,, what you said. We're good! :-D
 
Don,

Maybe you should go to the Jews for Jesus website... and make your point of contention with them. I'm sure someone could educate you on the original Aramaic and Hebrew of the Old testament,,, and possibly do a better job of explaining how Jesus is GOD... better than I can.

All I can do at this point,,, is go back to Matthew 22:45:

45"If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”

Basically,,, in plain English... Jesus is saying in this verse:

"If David calls me GOD, then how can I be his son?"

I'll say this again also:

by JESUS' OWN definition,,, the second "lord" in Psalm 110:1... is referring to King David!!! So that means that Jesus is referencing HIMSELF as the first "LORD" in Psalm 110:1.

At this point Don... you are no longer debating or arguing with me. You are debating and arguing with JESUS!!!
 
Jesus is saying this? "If David calls me GOD, then how can I be his son?"

No WAY! That's the lesser Lord David is speaking of. You are confused again. don-ohio :)^)
 
And that is the point you refuse to see. What you are saying is NOT in the Christian Scriptures of Matthew 22:45... or Psalm 110:1. On top of that,,, Psalm 110 is a worship song to Yahweh. So again... the greater LORD, (GOD), is saying to the lesser Lord (DAVID)... "come sit at My right" in the song David wrote.

110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Look at the interlinear translation, (Hebrew to English), of Psalm 110:1

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/110-1.htm

Again... the word used for the lesser Lord... is la·ḏō·nî, which is only used for an earthly human being. Since Jesus had not yet become human when David wrote this song... there is no way the lesser Lord is Jesus. The lesser Lord IS David!

On top of that,,, since Jesus had not yet taken/received the throne, (even by your own beliefs), when David was alive... there is NO WAY the lesser Lord is Jesus.

So... if you looked at the Interlinear link I provided,,, you will see that "Yahweh says to la·ḏō·nî", (David).

If the lessser Lord were Jesus... the the interlinear of Psalm 110:1 would say: "Yahweh says to Meleḵ ha-Mašīaḥ (which is the Hebrew word for The Messiah).


AGAIN...

when Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1, (from Matthew 22.45) by JESUS' OWN definition,,, the lesser "lord" in Psalm 110:1... is referring to King David!!!
 
Now lets do a little comparison between mainstream Christianity Bibles... and The New World Translation.

How about Titus 2:13

Parallel Verses

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

International Standard Version
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

Now compare to the NWT:

13 while we wait for the happy hope+ and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

Don... The NWT was written specifically to match the tenets of the faith you follow. Whereas Mainsteam Christianity follows what the Bible says.
 
Quote Don:

"Jesus is saying this? "If David calls me GOD, then how can I be his son?"

No WAY! That's the lesser Lord David is speaking of. You are confused again. don-ohio :)^) "

Umm Don??? David is not speaking in Matthew 22:45... so yes,,, it is Jesus talking. I think maybe you are the one that is confused.
 
04_Sport_LS said:
LS4,,,

I was a little concernd that what I said was incorrect... so after service today I talked to my pastor. He agreed with me that the second use of the word "Lord" in Psalm110:1... is the word adonee,,, and is referring to King David. My pastor also agreed that the first use of the word "LORD" in Psalm 110:1 is referring to Jesus... and added that Jesus is referencing to HIMSELF in Matthew 22:41-45,,, whe HE quotes Psalm 110:1

It was a bit of a relief to find out I wasn't off base on this. As it happens,,, I talked to a couple other members before I talked to the pastor,,, and they had the same interpretation as you. While many times in Psalms,,, things imply the Messiah's kindom... in this instance it has to do with Jesus' (GOD'S) promise to David.
Click to expand...

I must respectfully disagree with your pastor. If David is talking about himself, why is he uncharacteristically talking about himself in the 3rd person? Were he speaking about himself it would read "Adonai says to me...." David didn't conquer any other kingdoms save the ones that attacked him. He didn't inhabit the kingdoms he conquered. Verse 4 is also a reference to Yeshua. Malki-Tzedek is the only king/priest mentioned in the Bible (Heb 7:1-3). Also, Abram honored him with a tenth of his possessions (an obvious reference to tithing). Who is the only one worthy of such honor? The Godhead of course! Just because two separate words are translated "lord" doesn't necessarily mean the two persons can't be the same. Yeshua as the 2nd person of the Godhead would need a different "subservient" word. That doesn't mean he isn't GOD (YHWH) with the same authority. Remember He said only the Father knows the time and season when he will return. He also said not His will but the Father's. Usually the simplest explanation is correct. Remember, when David wrote the Psalms (that he wrote) the people that sang them knew EXACTLY what he meant. As did the pharisees when Yeshua asked them the question. Yeshua's question in Matthew (22:41-46) also, IMHO, nails that the second "lord" is Yeshua Himself.

I think I'm rambling.....
 
I feel like this thread would have accomplished more if we were all speaking different languages to each other...
 
..Im thinking someone is expecting another to say... "OH, you know what...you right! Thanks!!!" It'll be a cold day in ...... (not going there)!!
 
Tetragrammaton LORD Yahweh is speaking to Jesus,not the other way around.Like I said,you are confused here. don-ohio :)^)
 
Let's work up a rip-snorting, sword-waving free-for-all regarding the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin!!!

Almost all of the IMPORTANT tenets of Christianity are agreed-to by everybody in the body of Christ. It's the picayune stuff that creates all the furor.

KS
 
Quote by 04:
Now compare to the NWT:

13 while we wait for the happy hope+ and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

Don... The NWT was written specifically to match the tenets of the faith you follow. Whereas Mainsteam Christianity follows what the Bible says.[/QUOTE]

Here. Study this,04. These are Greek scholars' opinions.

`In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Dr.*N.*J.*D.*White observes: “The grammatical argument .*.*. is too slender to bear much weight, especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but the omission of it before” ‘Savior’ in 1*Timothy 1:1; 4:10. And Dr.*Alford stresses that in other passages where Paul uses expressions like “God our Savior” he definitely does NOT mean Jesus, for “the Father and the Son are most plainly distinguished from one another.” (1*Tim. 1:1; 2:3-5) This agrees with the overall teaching of the Bible that Jesus is a created Son who is not equal to his Father.—John 14:28; 1*Cor. 11:3.
Thus, Dr.*White concludes: ‘On the whole, then, we decide in favour of the rendering of this passage, appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.’ A number of modern translations agree. In the main text or in footnotes they render Titus 2:13 as speaking of two distinct persons, “the great God” who is Jehovah, and his Son, “our Savior, Christ Jesus,” both of whom have glory. (Luke 9:26; 2*Tim. 1:10) See The New American Bible, The Authentic New Testament, The Jerusalem Bible (footnote) and the translations by J.*B.*Phillips, James Moffatt and Charles K.*Williams.

don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don post #362:

"Tetragrammaton LORD Yahweh is speaking to Jesus,not the other way around.Like I said,you are confused here. don-ohio :)^)"

Don,

It seems you are havaing a hard time separating what I am saying about Matthew 22:45... and waht I am saying about Psalm 110:1

Either you are misunderstanding what I am saying,,, or you aren't reading it correctly. God is not speaking to Jesus in Matthew 22:45, so I think you are the one confused.

Or is that the "witness" way??? If you get backed into a corner,,, then twist what the other person is saying???
 
Quote Loud:

"I feel like this thread would have accomplished more if we were all speaking different languages to each other..."

Actually Loud... some of are.
 
Quote LS4:

I must respectfully disagree with your pastor. If David is talking about himself, why is he uncharacteristically talking about himself in the 3rd person? Were he speaking about himself it would read "Adonai says to me...." David didn't conquer any other kingdoms save the ones that attacked him. He didn't inhabit the kingdoms he conquered. Verse 4 is also a reference to Yeshua. Malki-Tzedek is the only king/priest mentioned in the Bible (Heb 7:1-3). Also, Abram honored him with a tenth of his possessions (an obvious reference to tithing). Who is the only one worthy of such honor? The Godhead of course! Just because two separate words are translated "lord" doesn't necessarily mean the two persons can't be the same. Yeshua as the 2nd person of the Godhead would need a different "subservient" word. That doesn't mean he isn't GOD (YHWH) with the same authority. Remember He said only the Father knows the time and season when he will return. He also said not His will but the Father's. Usually the simplest explanation is correct. Remember, when David wrote the Psalms (that he wrote) the people that sang them knew EXACTLY what he meant. As did the pharisees when Yeshua asked them the question. Yeshua's question in Matthew (22:41-46) also, IMHO, nails that the second "lord" is Yeshua Himself.

I think I'm rambling.....

LS4,

No... you're not rambling Brother. I figured by your delayed response that you might have some comments about what I have said. I did some more digging,,, and the word "la·ḏō·nî" occurs 24 times in the Old Testament... and is always used in the context of titleship/respect for an earthly, human master,,, not GOD/Jesus.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/ladoni_113.htm

Considering the word "la·ḏō·nî" is used in the second half of Psalm 110:1... this tells me that David is saying "God said to me".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/110-1.htm

I'm not making issue with you about any of this. I know my pastor is only human... but he is much more scholared than I am. If I have time,,, I will ask a couple more pastors I know... about this and see what they say.

Shalom
 
04_Sport_LS said:
Quote LS4:

I must respectfully disagree with your pastor. If David is talking about himself, why is he uncharacteristically talking about himself in the 3rd person? Were he speaking about himself it would read "Adonai says to me...." David didn't conquer any other kingdoms save the ones that attacked him. He didn't inhabit the kingdoms he conquered. Verse 4 is also a reference to Yeshua. Malki-Tzedek is the only king/priest mentioned in the Bible (Heb 7:1-3). Also, Abram honored him with a tenth of his possessions (an obvious reference to tithing). Who is the only one worthy of such honor? The Godhead of course! Just because two separate words are translated "lord" doesn't necessarily mean the two persons can't be the same. Yeshua as the 2nd person of the Godhead would need a different "subservient" word. That doesn't mean he isn't GOD (YHWH) with the same authority. Remember He said only the Father knows the time and season when he will return. He also said not His will but the Father's. Usually the simplest explanation is correct. Remember, when David wrote the Psalms (that he wrote) the people that sang them knew EXACTLY what he meant. As did the pharisees when Yeshua asked them the question. Yeshua's question in Matthew (22:41-46) also, IMHO, nails that the second "lord" is Yeshua Himself.

I think I'm rambling.....

LS4,

No... you're not rambling Brother. I figured by your delayed response that you might have some comments about what I have said. I did some more digging,,, and the word "la·ḏō·nî" occurs 24 times in the Old Testament... and is always used in the context of titleship/respect for an earthly, human master,,, not GOD/Jesus.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/ladoni_113.htm

Considering the word "la·ḏō·nî" is used in the second half of Psalm 110:1... this tells me that David is saying "God said to me".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/110-1.htm

I'm not making issue with you about any of this. I know my pastor is only human... but he is much more scholared than I am. If I have time,,, I will ask a couple more pastors I know... about this and see what they say.

Shalom
Click to expand...

NO issue at all is taken!! This is iron sharpening iron! You're making me do deeper and that's a good thing!

After deeper investigation I believe the "ladoni" is referring to Yeshua's humanity. That is what confounded the poeple in Matthew. They couldn't grasp Him being fully "The Name" and fully of human origin (part of Don's problem and part of the "mystery" Messiah). I read a Jewish source that said the second "lord" should be translated "master", which coincides with a wonderful translation I have called The Scriptures. The first "LORD" is correctly translated as the Tetragrammaton. In the Orthodox Jewisw translation the second "lord" is "Moshiach Adoneinu", Messiah.

1 (Of Dovid. Mizmor). Hashem said unto Adoni [i.e., Moshiach Adoneinu; Malachi 3:1], Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet.

Seems to me the exchange in Matthew 22:41-45 is Yeshua driving home the point that Messiah (Him) pre-existed David (as the second part of the Godhead) and is also his descendent (His human nature). Remember, Mt. 22:43 says David was "in the Spitit" when he wrote Psalm 110. Another point.... Just HOW would Yeshua know David was "in the Spirit" unless He was there??? IMHO, Psalm 110 and Matther 22:41ff are inextricably linked. It's almost as if Psalm 110 was written for Yeshua to use!

I could go on but typing and searching is terrible on an iPad!! :).

Shalom my brother!!
 
Cammer,

I remember many posts back... when you asked how Leviticus applied to us in todays world. Shame on you. :-D You've been sandbagging this whole time. :p
 
LS4,

I agree with you for the most part,,, but when Jesus says Matthew, that David was speaking in the spirit... where in Psalm 110 was Jesus getting that from???

I suggest, (and still stand by), Psalm 110:1... where David says, (paraphrased), "God said to me". This is the only place in the Psalm were Jesus could could be making reference to David... in Matthew. This is how David may be speaking in the "third person" narrative in Psalm 110:1.

Am I making sense?

I also did some more study,,, and David conquered a several kingdoms during his reign.

http://www.bible-history.com/maps/nations_david_defeated.html

In your defense... if it had not been for seeing the reference Jesus makes in Matthew,,, quoting Psalms... I would have thought that Psalm 110 was only about Jesus. However... I now see a parallel, (actually a double parallel), between Jesus and David in Psalm 110.

Psalm 110 describes BOTH David's... AND Jesus' coming reign in Psalm 110:2-7. Ironically,,, at the same time... David was part of the direct human lineage,,, that preceded Jesus before his birth. You may or may not know this... but BOTH Mary and Joseph,,, were part of the direct lineage to Christ also.

What else I find interesting,,, is that a couple of people in Christ's lineage were "grafted in", (adopted)... which is a forshadowing of what Christ did with the gentiles,,, during HIS time on earth... and especially after HIS death, (WHICH IS WHEN HE TOOK THE THRONE... Don,,, are you listening???)

We are good brother,,, and you have helped me dig deeper into what the Scriptures say. At the same time,,, I have to give some credit to Don... because if it had not been for his challenging contradictions,,, I never would have dug into any of this. Seems not only that iron sharpens iron,,, but that testing does too.
 
BigRig,

I watched your video link. Looks interesting. Keep in mind though,,, that man made religious laws were what determined priests were not to get married. Not too much different from the Saducees and Pharisees centuries ago. Ironically... in Jesus' day,,, and before,,, and to this day. Jewish Rabbis are allowed to get married... and by their faith are actually encouraged to get married.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/248162/jewish/Can-a-Rabbi-Get-Married.htm
 
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