'Ground Zero mosque'? The reality is less provocative

[hrmwrm]

Millions of Americans are furious about the 'Ground Zero mosque'. But it doesn't exist

Charlie Brooker The Guardian, Monday 23 August 2010 Article history


Things seem awfully heated in America right now; so heated you could probably toast a marshmallow by jabbing it on a stick and holding it toward the Atlantic. Millions are hopping mad over the news that a bunch of triumphalist Muslim extremists are about to build a "victory mosque" slap bang in the middle of Ground Zero.

The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is.

I'm exaggerating. But I'm only exaggerating a tad more than some of the professional exaggerators who initially raised objections to the "Ground Zero mosque". They keep calling it the "Ground Zero mosque", incidentally, because it's a catchy title that paints a powerful image – specifically, the image of a mosque at Ground Zero.

When I heard about it – in passing, in a soundbite – I figured it was a US example of the sort of inanely confrontational fantasy scheme Anjem Choudary might issue a press release about if he fancied winding up the tabloids for the 900th time this year. I was wrong. The "Ground Zero mosque" is a genuine proposal, but it's slightly less provocative than its critics' nickname makes it sound. For one thing, it's not at Ground Zero. Also, it isn't a mosque.

Wait, it gets duller. It's not being built by extremists either. Cordoba House, as it's known, is a proposed Islamic cultural centre, which, in addition to a prayer room, will include a basketball court, restaurant, and swimming pool. Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations. It'll probably also have comfy chairs and people who smile at you when you walk in, the monsters.

To get to the Cordoba Centre from Ground Zero, you'd have to walk in the opposite direction for two blocks, before turning a corner and walking a bit more. The journey should take roughly two minutes, or possibly slightly longer if you're heading an angry mob who can't hear your directions over the sound of their own enraged bellowing.

Perhaps spatial reality functions differently on the other side of the Atlantic, but here in London, something that is "two minutes' walk and round a corner" from something else isn't actually "in" the same place at all. I once had a poo in a pub about two minutes' walk from Buckingham Palace. I was not subsequently arrested and charged with crapping directly onto the Queen's pillow. That's how "distance" works in Britain. It's also how distance works in America, of course, but some people are currently pretending it doesn't, for daft political ends.

New York being a densely populated city, there are lots of other buildings and businesses within two blocks of Ground Zero, including a McDonald's and a Burger King, neither of which has yet been accused of serving milkshakes and fries on hallowed ground. Regardless, for the opponents of Cordoba House, two blocks is too close, period. Frustratingly, they haven't produced a map pinpointing precisely how close is OK.

That's literally all I'd ask them in an interview. I'd stand there pointing at a map of the city. Would it be offensive here? What about here? Or how about way over there? And when they finally picked a suitable spot, I'd ask them to draw it on the map, sketching out roughly how big it should be, and how many windows it's allowed to have. Then I'd hand them a colour swatch and ask them to decide on a colour for the lobby carpet. And the conversation would continue in this vein until everyone in the room was in tears. Myself included.

That hasn't happened. Instead, 70% of Americans are opposed to the "Ground Zero mosque", doubtless in many cases because they've been led to believe it literally is a mosque at Ground Zero. And if not . . . well, it must be something significant. Otherwise why would all these pundits be so angry about it? And why would anyone in the media listen to them with a straight face?

According to a recent poll, one in five Americans believes Barack Obama is a Muslim, even though he isn't. A quarter of those who believe he's a Muslim also claimed he talks about his faith too much. Americans aren't dumb. Clearly these particular Americans have either gone insane or been seriously misled. Where are they getting their information?

Sixty per cent said they learned it from the media. Which means it's time for the media to give up.

Seriously, broadcasters, journalists: just give up now. Because either you're making things worse, or no one's paying attention anyway. May as well knock back a few Jagermeisters, unplug the autocue, and just sit there dumbly repeating whichever reality-warping meme the far right wants to go viral this week. What's that? Obama is Gargamel and he's killing all the Smurfs? Sod it. Whatever. Roll titles.

 

[Calabrio]

It's a proposed 15 story, $100,000,000 dollar mosque/community center located two blocks, or about 600 feet from the WTC location. If you've never been to that part of Manhattan, it's hard to really envision how close things are in that part of the city. You will be able to view the WTC site from the upper floors of the building.

It was close enough to destruction that the landing gear from one of air line jets landed on the roof of the building and dozens of bodies were found near the location.

It's not being built by extremists either. Cordoba House, as it's known, is a proposed Islamic cultural centre, which, in addition to a prayer room, will include a basketball court, restaurant, and swimming pool. Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations. It'll probably also have comfy chairs and people who smile at you when you walk in, the monsters.

Actually, the smug author is wrong on this point as well.
First of all, even the name is offensive and radical. The Cordoba Project refers to the Cordoba region of Spain.

The lie is that this was a period of great tolerance and harmony. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It was a period of Islamic dominance over Europe forcing the population into dhimmitude. The Great Mosque of Cordoba was built on top of the Christian church that was there.

And the cozy YMCA feel that this author attributes to this "community center" is ridiculous. As is always the case, whatever facilities there will be extremely segregated along sex and religious lines, with male Islamic supremacy being at the core of these decisions.

And then, of course, there's the issue of who's behind the Cordoba Project, and where do they intend to raise the $100,000,000 that they expect the building to cost?

Faisel Rauf is a man that won't condemn Hamas or Hezbollah.
And he advocates Sharia law.
And he has a history of making comments like these:
YouTube- EXCLUSIVE: Imam Rauf Exposed: "America Has Muslim Blood on Hands,N**word, Suicide bombers

No one thinks that the Ground Zero Mosque is going to be located on the exact location of the Twin Towers. And i personally think it's a mistake to focus too harshly on the geographic location more than the founders, the symbolism, and where the funding is going to come from.

It's not uncommon for these Imams to speak badly about the U.S. in to foreign audiences while telling the English speak audience an entirely different story. But, even in English, Rauf will not refuse to accept money from Iran or from Hamas. He will not to refuse to take money from terrorist organizations. He also will not speak against them.

 

[hrmwrm]

that's funny. you admit it's not at ground zero, then refer to it properly, then return to calling it the ground zero mosque.
a ground zero mosque doesn't exist.

No one thinks that the Ground Zero Mosque is going to be located on the exact location of the Twin Towers.

right. how many people think obama is muslim?
you're a fool if you believe that.

 

[Calabrio]

that's funny. you admit it's not at ground zero, then refer to it properly, then return to calling it the ground zero mosque.
a ground zero mosque doesn't exist.

But I don't see your point, I could also call it the proposed Cordoba house. Park 51, The WTC Mosque, the Ground Zero mosque, or the old Burlington Coat Factory building, but that would have any bearing on everything I just said.

right. how many people think obama is muslim?
you're a fool if you believe that.

Let me state first that I do not think he's a Muslim, despite the fact that his father was a Muslim, his step-father was a Muslim, and his paternal family are all Muslims. I'd also add that his preacher, Rev. Write used to be a Muslim as well before converting to Christian liberation theology, and that the Egyptian Foreign Minister says that Obama told him that he was a Muslim.

I've read both Dreams from my Father and the awful "Audacity of Hope." I know the has embraced the black liberation theology preached by Rev. Write, Rev.Pflager, and Rev. James Cone and baptisted at the Trinity United Church in Chicago.

But,according to recent Pew polls, 18% of Americans think he's a Muslim. And that's curious, because the number has increased SINCE he became President. I don't think that's an indictment of the American people, I think that says something about our President. You'd think the public would better understand after nearly two years, but his actions leave most people confused. His views of religion are not consistent with most Americans.

43% of people in that poll simply said they "didn't know."
And 54% of Democrats poled said he wasn't a Christian or didn't know.

And regarding the location of the Cordoba House/Ground Zero/Park51/Burlington Coat Factory Mosque... Over 63% of New Yorkers oppose the mosque. Do you really think they don't the difference? The argument about it being 600' away has been widely repeated, proponents of the mosque have been lying and arguing it's more like 1500'.

Do you think all of the protesters who met there this week didn't realize they weren't standing in the footprint of the World Trade Center?

You shouldn't be so condescending, people know what's going on with this story.

 

[hrmwrm]

But I don't see your point, I could also call it the proposed Cordoba house. Park 51,

these would be what it is.
no other nearby buildings are called ground zero _______.

mosque and ground zero together is meant to invoke that fear response.

Let me state first that I do not think he's a Muslim

i was only trying to make a point. many people falsley believe that.
and it was not to imply that you believe it.
ahhh. upon further reading, i see now. the "you're a fool if you believe that"
was meant to the quote, not obama the muslim. no, it's not clear. sorry.

Many news organizations ran headlines this past weekend describing a "Ground Zero mosque," including the Associated Press, Huffington Post, Washington Post, Fox News, New York Daily News, Politico, and AOL's Politics Daily site.

without a further understanding, many will think it actually might be a part of the rebuilding of the site. not everyone lives in or knows about new york.
until that sarah palin refudiate fiasco, i hadn't heard about it, and at that time thought it was at the site until further educating myself. many won't bother.

 

[Calabrio]

and at that time thought it was at the site until further educating myself. many won't bother.

Most don't need to because you and this author apparently weren't aware of one of the main, hot button issues associated with this story-

first, there's the national outrage that nearly 10 years after the fact, the WTC is still a massive hole in the ground.

And second, the initial statements from this mosque said that they were going to have it completed and officially opened on 9/11/11. Initially there was outrage over the fact that date and the fact this mosque would be built completed long before the Freedom Towers (or whatever they intend to call it) was built.

So, I think you're projecting.
The vast majority know that it's not in the footprint of the Twin Towers. Whether they think it's across the street, or 600 feet, or 1500 feet doesn't really matter.

 

[Marcus]

And second, the initial statements from this mosque said that they were going to have it completed and officially opened on 9/11/11. Initially there was outrage over the fact that date and the fact this mosque would be built completed long before the Freedom Towers (or whatever they intend to call it) was built.

Bullsh!t. No one ever said anything of the sort. This idiotic myth is based entirely on a column from the New York Post. Note that it's a column, not a news article, and that she cites no sources, nor has anyone else. Glenn Beck and everyone else spouting this BS are basing it on this one column. This article, written after the Post column, plainly states that not only are there no plans to open it on the anniversary, but that it won't even be completed for another 18 months to three years.

Rauf said the mosque will not open on the anniversary of 9/11, and that it will take between 18 months and three years before the money is raised to open the center at the old Burlington Coat Factory building on Park Place, which was damaged on 9/11. Rauf said the building will either be demolished, or renovated depending on a pending landmark status application.​

 

[shagdrum]

Thank you, Marcus, for your civil, respectful contribution.

 

[foxpaws]

Thank you, Marcus, for your civil, respectful contribution.

So, Marcus points out a obvious problem with part of the article, has source to back up his statements, and this is your response?

In the past I would have to agree with you Shag - that the first part of the post was lacking in civil discourse. However, I know how you and the others have treated this sort of 'in your face' evidence in the past. Marcus probably knew that any attempt at showing the flaws within the article was really futile, why not add a little editorial statement at the beginning, since the actual evidence would be totally ignored.

 

[fossten]

Bullsh!t. No one ever said anything of the sort. This idiotic myth is based entirely on a column from the New York Post. Note that it's a column, not a news article, and that she cites no sources, nor has anyone else. Glenn Beck and everyone else spouting this BS are basing it on this one column. This article, written after the Post column, plainly states that not only are there no plans to open it on the anniversary, but that it won't even be completed for another 18 months to three years.

Rauf said the mosque will not open on the anniversary of 9/11, and that it will take between 18 months and three years before the money is raised to open the center at the old Burlington Coat Factory building on Park Place, which was damaged on 9/11. Rauf said the building will either be demolished, or renovated depending on a pending landmark status application.
​

:bsflag:
With all due respect, Marcus (since you gave Cal all due respect with your BS comment), you'll understand why I discount your 'source' considering it is Rauf the subversive.

Vinny Gambini: Uh... everything that guy just said is bullsh!t... Thank you.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Objection. Counsel's entire opening statement is argumentative.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Sustained. Counselor's entire opening statement... with the exception of "thank you"... will be stricken from the record.

 

[FIND]

With all due respect, Marcus (since you gave Cal all due respect with your BS comment), you'll understand why I discount your 'source' considering it is Rauf the subversive.

Then look beyond his source to pure logic. It would be impossible to construct and open the "ground zero" mosque in the timeframe the New York Post and Glenn Beck are advertising.

 

[Marcus]

:bsflag:
With all due respect, Marcus (since you gave Cal all due respect with your BS comment), you'll understand why I discount your 'source' considering it is Rauf the subversive.

Discount all you want, but no one has yet to provide a single 'source' to support the original claim.

 

[hrmwrm]

first, there's the national outrage that nearly 10 years after the fact, the WTC is still a massive hole in the ground.

so it is plausible it could be built there since nothing else yet exists there.

And second, the initial statements from this mosque said that they were going to have it completed and officially opened on 9/11/11. Initially there was outrage over the fact that date and the fact this mosque would be built completed long before the Freedom Towers (or whatever they intend to call it) was built.

well, apparently this has been addressed.

So, I think you're projecting.
The vast majority know that it's not in the footprint of the Twin Towers. Whether they think it's across the street, or 600 feet, or 1500 feet doesn't really matter.

i don't think so. i'm sure if you polled people, many would think of it that way.
but many are just jumpin the bandwagon of discourse, due yet again to that fear factor right.

 

[Calabrio]

due yet again to that fear factor right.

It's not a right or left issue.
The opposition to this mosque is bipartisan. From Harry Reid to Newt Gingrich.
From Howard Dean to Peter King.

 

[FIND]

It's not a right or left issue.
The opposition to this mosque is bipartisan. From Harry Reid to Newt Gingrich.
From Howard Dean to Peter King.

However, one must admit that at least a part of that opposition is based in the fact that many people believe that the mosque is being built at "ground zero".

 

[hrmwrm]

No one thinks that the Ground Zero Mosque is going to be located on the exact location of the Twin Towers.

i would doubt that, since it seems new yorkers are the least bothered. at least those that are closest.

By a dramatic margin, a majority of the country opposes the construction of the so-called "Ground Zero mosque," a new CNN poll finds. According to the new survey, 68% of Americans are against building the Cordoba House, a Muslim community center planned to be constructed two blocks from the former site of the World Trade Center. Twenty-nine percent favor the plan.

As The New Yorker's Hendrik Hertzberg has written, opposition to the Islamic center seems "roughly proportional to distance." While 68% of Americans disapprove of the plan, a recent Marist poll found that 53% of New York City residents disapprove, including only 31% of Manhattan residents.

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has come out in favor of the plan, while a number of Republicans nationwide have vocally opposed it.

The CNN poll, which surveyed 1,009 adults, has a margin of error of ±3.0 percentage points.

 

[hrmwrm]

3 Reasons the "Ground Zero Mosque" Debate Makes No Sense
By: Gladstone August 20th, 2010 478,612 views.

I don’t usually write about politics. It’s important, but something I want no part of – kind of like a raw sewage treatment facility. But frankly, I haven’t been this upset in a long time. And it's due to the logic-hating, herd-mentality rhetoric that some have been flinging in opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque.” For the uninitiated, there are plans to construct an Islamic community center in lower Manhattan. And, of course, lower Manhattan is where the World Trade Center stood before terrorists destroyed it, thereby murdering 3,000 Americans. I was working in New York City at the time. As was my father. As was my pregnant wife. I remember the day well. And the days that followed. I think most of all, I remember standing on the Staten Island Ferry, coming home with 200 other silent, reverent New Yorkers of every age, race, and religion, as we watched our city still smoldering a full week later. And it is with this backdrop that I can say to every politician spouting off and opposing the construction of this Islamic community center: “Shut up. Go away. You hate America.”


I’m talking about people like professional political tumor, Newt Gingrich, and future worst President ever, Sarah Palin, who have both slammed supporters of the Islamic community center with rhetoric so flawed, I’m afraid even linking to it might impair your computer’s higher functioning circuits. But it's not just them. Due to the wave of misinformation being spread, apparently 68% of Americans also oppose the mosque.


How did this happen? Well, basically a complacent or a complicit media helped perpetuate three ideas that are either outright lies or intellectually dishonest arguments designed to bring out the very worst in all of us. And as you continue to hear them--and you will--take out this column which you will have already printed and laminated, and recite thusly:

1. It’s Not at Ground Zero

The proposed structure is not on the hallowed ground of the former World Trade Center. It’s at an abandoned and private building blocks away that used to be the Burlington Coat Factory. That means that if every one of the “g’s” that Sarah Palin drops when she’s talkin’ folksy were 10 by10 feet large, you could still stack over 120 of them from Ground Zero to this community center. Easy.


That sort of makes all the difference, doesn’t it? I know, when I first heard they were building a mosque at Ground Zero, I literally said, “What the :q:q:q:q.” Like out loud and everything. I didn’t even pull a “WTF” despite years of writing for the Internet. That’s because for the last nine years, we New Yorkers have listened to countless proposals and plans and ideas of how to best rebuild the area while honoring the memories of those who died. And suddenly it seemed we were being told, “Yep, it’s all decided. Mosque. We want a mosque here. Just feels right.”


So yeah, of course, no one was on board. That just made no sense. What happened to that proposed waterfall and wall of names? Nothing happened. Because no one was ever building a mosque on that site. It’s just a lie that was told to you by people who wanted you to be afraid, upset, and hurt. People who wanted to manipulate your tender emotions to inspire contempt for the government. It’s about as intellectually dishonest as manipulating debate footage to make it appear that “Drill, baby, drill” is Sarah Palin’s stance on partial birth abortions. It's just wrong.


And to those who say that any location in lower Manhattan is too close for a Muslim structure, let me remind you that right now, in the shadow of what would be the former World Trade Center, there’s a Halal Meat Hot Truck with a multi-denominational line that wraps around my building every day at lunch time. And I’m positive that’s owned by a Muslim. And I’ve even suffered at his hands. (Spoiler alert: avoid the goat rhoti). Should he move a few more blocks away too? Of course, not. That would just be silly, right? Is it different? Why? Because mosques are religious and the 911 terrorists perverted Islam into something violent and hateful? Guess what? Those knights did the same thing to Christianity for the 300 years of the Crusades, and no one’s saying that churches shouldn’t be built anywhere in … Europe.



2. It’s Not Strictly A Mosque

A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it, do you? Well, maybe you do. You read about politics on the Internet from a guy who claims not to write about politics, so maybe you’re functionally illiterate. But the point is, you shouldn’t.


But “Islamic Community Center open to the public” doesn’t have the same ability to scare people the way "mosque" does. I mean, you hear "mosque" you think mosquito, you think STING! You hear "mosque" you think “mask,” you think DECEPTION! You hear “community center” you think “OK. One more place I’ll never go.” So, yeah, clearly the decision was made by those who hate you to call this the “Ground Zero Mosque” even though it’s not at Ground Zero and not technically a mosque. Why are we still discussing this? Why haven’t you already asked Sarah Palin if she’s the devil on her Twitter account? Oh, that’s right. Because the devil is supposed to be good at lying.

3. You Can’t Simultaneously Acknowledge A Right And Insist That Your Government Suppress It

But the real reason I’m writing is not just because of people like Sarah Palin, but because of shameful, spineless panderers like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Here’s a statement from each of them designed to give the appearance of being tolerant while adhering to good old-fashioned common sense values:

From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:

“We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid "thinks this mosque should be built some place else," his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.


Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

You can’t legally stop people from obeying the law.


The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?



And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights? I can’t think of anything less American than that? This is America. We do what we want. And all you have to do to have that right is be a citizen here. And if you’re a traitor, well then we will prosecute you for treason and penalize you for taking up arms against the greatest country in the world, but we will NOT start curtailing your freedoms based on mere speculation fueled by lies about what you’re building and where you’re building it.


In the days following 911 it was very popular to say that we couldn’t do anything differently in America or “the terrorists would win.” We can’t stop driving gas guzzling cars. We can’t stop supporting dictators in other parts of the world for financial or political gain. We can’t vote for a Democrat. Most of that was rhetoric. Some of it was probably true. But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. And I don’t want to see that. Because unlike those with power and influence who would lie to you, I love America.



http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/

 

[foxpaws]

This was part of Shag's thread - Last refuge of a liberal... but it does really fit here...

The intelligentsia is near unanimous that the only possible grounds for opposition is bigotry toward Muslims. This smug attribution of bigotry to two-thirds of the population hinges on the insistence on a complete lack of connection between Islam and radical Islam, a proposition that dovetails perfectly with the Obama administration's pretense that we are at war with nothing more than "violent extremists" of inscrutable motive and indiscernible belief. Those who reject this as both ridiculous and politically correct (an admitted redundancy) are declared Islamophobes, the ad hominem du jour.

So what are the grounds - I would really like to know. I know there are no legal reasons - so what would the 'grounds' be?

 

[shagdrum]

So what are the grounds - I would really like to know. I know there are no legal reasons - so what would the 'grounds' be?

Are you talking the physical grounds? That is a red herring.

It doesn't matter weather the mosque is right at ground zero, or simply in close proximity, it is not there by accident and most American's view it as exceedingly insensitive and even insulting. Considering the more incremental, subversive agenda of those promoting Shari’ah law, as there is justification for serious concern as well.

To simply write off that outrage as "bigotry" is not only insulting but exceedingly dishonest; a means of stifling discourse and marginalizing a legitimate point of view instead of taking the time to understand the point of view, reflect on it and reach an objective conclusion.

However, when you are on the losing side of an argument (as polls on this consistently show those supporting the Mosque to be), it is much more convenient and expedient to posture, feign outrage and impugn the opposing position rather then give it honest consideration or allow it to be honestly considered in the court of public opinion. However, doing so is an act of desperation.

That was, essentially, the point of the Krauthammer article, though he was also making much broader implications as well. It can be summed up in this line:

Pull out the bigotry charge, the trump that preempts debate and gives no credit to the seriousness and substance of the contrary argument.​

And the conclusion is worth noting as well:

The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them.​

 

[foxpaws]

Are you talking the physical grounds? That is a red herring.

No shag, what are the legal grounds - if there are no legal grounds, then it becomes 'personal' doesn't it?

 

[shagdrum]

No shag, what are the legal grounds - if there are no legal grounds, then it becomes 'personal' doesn't it?

Why does there need to be legal grounds to simply find the placement of the Mosque exceedingly insensitive and insulting?

 

[foxpaws]

so it is just personal - 'insensitive and insulting'.

Isn't the strip bar that is across the street - closer than the mosque, 'insensitive and insulting'?

 

[shagdrum]

so it is just personal - 'insensitive and insulting'.

Isn't the strip bar that is across the street - closer than the mosque, 'insensitive and insulting'?

Did strippers fly two plans into the WTC (collapsing them), another one into the Pentagon (and attempt to hijack a fourth) in a terrorist attack that killed 3000 almost 10 years ago?

Do you really think two-thirds of Americans would be outraged by a strip club? How of them frequent strip clubs?

Another interesting question; why would any muslim want to build a Mosque near a strip club?

Also, I wouldn't characterize it as "just personal". All politics starts at the personal level and this is unquestionably political.

 

[FIND]

Did strippers fly two plans into the WTC (collapsing them), another one into the Pentagon (and attempt to hijack a fourth) in a terrorist attack that killed 3000 almost 10 years ago?

Do you really think two-thirds of Americans would be outraged by a strip club? How of them frequent strip clubs?

Another interesting question; why would any muslim want to build a Mosque near a strip club?

Also, I wouldn't characterize it as "just personal". All politics starts at the personal level and this is unquestionably political.

Did decent, wage-earning, average people fly planes into the WTC, or did Al-Qaeda terrorists, extremists, fly planes into the WTC? Last I checked, this wasn't being built to shelter Al-Qaeda or as a monument to those people. This is being built two blocks away.... How far away is far enough to not offend you? Because a group of extremists attacked a site, muslims should know better than to go there ever again? It is off-limits to them?

Two thirds of America are outraged by a mosque being built at the site of the WTC that will open on 9-11-11 because Fox News seems to want to "bend" the truth to spark outrage. Go ahead, do a poll on the streets. Ask people where the "ground zero" mosque is being built.

Why not build a mosque near a strip-club? Maybe they hope that having it there will serve as a moral lighthouse for some people.

 

[foxpaws]

Did strippers fly two plans into the WTC (collapsing them), another one into the Pentagon (and attempt to hijack a fourth) in a terrorist attack that killed 3000 almost 10 years ago?

Do you really think two-thirds of Americans would be outraged by a strip club? How of them frequent strip clubs?

Another interesting question; why would any muslim want to build a Mosque near a strip club?

Also, I wouldn't characterize it as "just personal". All politics starts at the personal level and this is unquestionably political.

Do strip clubs demean women - did women die in the World Trade Center? Aren't most people outraged if a strip club wants to move next to their house?

So, if people aren't outraged at something as demeaning and outrageous as a strip club near ground zero - it doesn't really have anything to do with the 'what' but perhaps the 'who' - correct?

Not political - very personal...