Frustrated and Discouraged...engine problems, again!

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HawleyTronics

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I have been reading this forum for a while now, but finally joined today.

I have a 2000 Lincoln LS 3.9L V8 with around 150k miles on it.

It has been in the shop a little over a year ago for timing chain tensioners. The mechanic was a friend and wasn't a certified Ford/Lincoln mechanic, but he said he could do the repair. Before I brought it to him, the car was experiencing a very rough idle, engine shaking, and what sounded like lifters tapping (top end).

After 20+ hours of labor and $1,800 later, he said he replaced the timing chain tensioners. The car was running much better, but not perfect. It still had a slightly rough idle and I was told it could be coils and/or plugs.

I have dealt with the slightly rough idle for about a year but now it seems to be running terrible again, worse even, than before I brought it to the mechanic last year.

I can't understand how a timing chain tensioner could go bad after a year, unless he didn't really change ALL of them like he said. Now the engine is idling very rough and shaking and the "lifter noise" sounds loud and terrible!

The funny thing is, the car runs smooth and fine when I drive it, the lifter noise quieting down a bit while driving, but when I stop it is loud again and car shakes a bit with the rough idle.

What the hell is going on? This is really upsetting me because I keep asking myself why I love this car and why I am almost willing to drop some more $ into it to fix it yet again.

I am planning on pulling the valve covers this weekend to see if I can shed some light on the issue. Will I be able to tell if the timing chains are loose by pulling just the valve covers? I am assuming it may be a tensioner gone bad (or one that was never replaced when I was told it was).

It figures, I just completed a website job and scored around $850 but I paid some bills and upgraded my cell phone (to HTC Evo 4g) but if I knew this baby was gonna get very "sick" again, I would have saved the cash to put into it.

Frustrating!! I need to figure this out and hopefully not cost me another arm and leg. :mad:

lincoln2001.jpg
 
Seriously, a vacuum leak making the engine sound like its lifters are going to fly out of the valve covers? When I say LOUD lifter noise, I am not joking. It isn't just a slight tapping. We are talking midgets inside the engine banging on the valve covers with little ball-peen hammers.
 
HawleyTronics said:
Seriously, a vacuum leak making the engine sound like its lifters are going to fly out of the valve covers? When I say LOUD lifter noise, I am not joking. It isn't just a slight tapping. We are talking midgets inside the engine banging on the valve covers with little ball-peen hammers.
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Sounds to me like a secondary timing chain broke and that you will be able to see when you pull off the valve covers. $1800 should have easily covered a full timing assembly job. If that is the case of something broken, I would go back to your mechanic.
 
If the secondary timing chain broke, wouldn't the car not run?
It is making a loud "lifter" noise, but when I drive it, it drives fine and the noise quiets down a lot. It still has plenty of power and can definitely get out of its own way. I removed the RH valve cover last night and the timing chains look fine, as does the tensioner (attached photo). There is no slack in the larger chain and the smaller chain has maybe 1/4 slack, if that. So they seem fine to me.

As you can see from the photo, the engine has little to no sludge build-up (I have always kept up on the oil changes) and looks pretty clean. I checked all the camshaft mounts and none were loose and I also felt the cams, all seemed smooth with no marks or wear. As for the lifters, etc; I am not sure how I am going to check those without getting deeper into the engine as I am sure I am going to need to pull some parts off the front to get to the flywheel/pulley to put a breaker bar on it to turn it?

Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated. As for now, I have it parked in my garage, waiting for the next step, whatever that is...

RH_valve_cover_off.jpg


RH_timing_chains.jpg
 
No lifters on the LS. Shims are added or subtracted to adjust valve lash.

Check the metal casing around the chains to see any marks where the chains may have been hitting them. Check that the flats at the front of the camshafts line up.
 
The chains are tight, so any marks would have happened over a year ago, before the tensioners were replaced.

I am not sure what you mean by checking that the "flats" at the front of the camshafts line-up...

Is there a possibility that there may be a bent valve or something?
 
sounds more like an oil pump going out at idle. check to see what the oil pressure is
 
Also, FYI, I am using a Fram Oil Filter and I have read a lot here that people recommend a Motorcraft instead because the Frams don't allow the oil to flow as well as with the Motorcraft. So could that be a cause as well? (I find it absurd that a simple oil filter could cause that much noise in the top-end, but I won't count it out completely, yet.)

I may just go and get a Motorcraft filter anyway, just to eliminate that possibility. LOL
 
HawleyTronics said:
Also, FYI, I am using a Fram Oil Filter and I have read a lot here that people recommend a Motorcraft instead because the Frams don't allow the oil to flow as well as with the Motorcraft. So could that be a cause as well? (I find it absurd that a simple oil filter could cause that much noise in the top-end, but I won't count it out completely, yet.)

I may just go and get a Motorcraft filter anyway, just to eliminate that possibility. LOL
Click to expand...

Old internet urban legend from the 90's. I've been using nothing but Fram filters from WalMart in my 02 LSE v8 since I bought her with 8 miles on her brand new. I now have 139k miles and the engine is just as smooth as she was when I purchased the car
 
Ok, so nothing new to report, other than I've learned a few things during this issue from what people have told me...

1) I shouldn't use a Fram oil filter (even though I don't think changing brands of oil filter is going to fix my issue)
2) My engine doesn't have lifters, but "shims" instead. What's the difference? Shims can't collapse like lifters?

I would put my valve cover back on and record a video of my engine so you guys can see/hear it, but I can just refer you to that other thread that has a video of the guy's LS engine running, mine sounds pretty much the same, but not quite as bad as in the video...
( http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=62335 )

On the side where I hear the noise, I've removed the valve cover and looked at the timing chains/tensioners. The front timing chain which is on the larger sprocket is tight, the other timing chain that is on the smaller sprocket is only loose a tad (less than 1/4" play) and the tensioner looks fine. (They better since they were supposedly replaced only a year and a half ago.)

So, from what I've read, the timing cannot be adjusted manually but rather is controlled/adjusted by the PCM? What about if the timing chains were not replaced in the correct position, maybe a tooth or two off...would that cause the issues I am experiencing? From working with older engines, the symptoms seem to point to being out of timing. Idling rough, pinging, etc. But I know this engine is different so I cannot go by my previous experiences.

I have the valve cover off at this point, so I guess I am not sure what to do next...
 
have you ever though about swapping an lsx engine? I know that when my engine or tranny fails im swapping in one, its not going to be easy but i just think it'll be cheaper.
 
UglyLS said:
have you ever though about swapping an lsx engine? I know that when my engine or tranny fails im swapping in one, its not going to be easy but i just think it'll be cheaper.
Click to expand...

Like most of the electronics not working. Who needs A/C, heat, radio, etc. anyway.
 
Mine is doing almost exactly the same thing... Cyl Number 7 Misfire. Bank 1 Running Lean
Bank 2 Running Rich.
Rough idle.
Tapping noise driver side top end..
Replaced the secondary timing chain tensioner.. It was toast when i got the car..
Replacing the tensioner had no effect it seems..
My neighbor thinks the timing jumped a tooth or something. is this possible??
 
HawleyTronics said:
The chains are tight, so any marks would have happened over a year ago, before the tensioners were replaced.

I am not sure what you mean by checking that the "flats" at the front of the camshafts line-up...

Is there a possibility that there may be a bent valve or something?
Click to expand...
About an inch or so from the front of the cams, there are flat spots on the cams. Check to make sure that they are completely flat across both intake and exhaust cams.
 
UglyLS said:
its not going to be easy but i just think it'll be cheaper.
Click to expand...

not likely, the cost of the engine, trans, new computers, wiring harness, fuel system upgrades, custom drive shaft, custom engine mounts, custom exhaust, new gauges, custom gauge cluster to hold the new gauges...

did i mention all of the one off custom parts? i guess if your a machinist and a welder with a lot of extra time on your hands, it might not cost a fortune to have it done.

then after all the money you've spent to get the stuff, then you have to spend the time chasing down all the misc. stuff that doesn't work like the AC and the heater, who knows what problems you gonna have with the traction control, ABS, SRS systems?

that wont be easy or cheap no matter how you slice it.
 
Secondary tensioner is broken...

After looking closer I realized the tensioner is broken. You can see the piece broken and wedged between the pulley and cam mount. I pulled it out with a pair of tweezers. Can I simply remove the broken tensioner as-is and replace with a new one without tearing the engine down too much? (As in remove only the two mounting bolts?)

BTW, the flats of the two cams aren't facing straight up, but they both appear to be facing the same direction. But I assume if one is off a tooth it would be hard to tell anyway?

225688_1973085160859_1054925821_32360519_7722318_n.jpg
 
HawleyTronics said:
Secondary tensioner is broken...

After looking closer I realized the tensioner is broken. You can see the piece broken and wedged between the pulley and cam mount. I pulled it out with a pair of tweezers. Can I simply remove the broken tensioner as-is and replace with a new one without tearing the engine down too much? (As in remove only the two mounting bolts?)

BTW, the flats of the two cams aren't facing straight up, but they both appear to be facing the same direction. But I assume if one is off a tooth it would be hard to tell anyway?
Click to expand...

Is this the same side that you had problems with a year ago? Seeing your car didnt break a chain, therefore you didnt damage a head, I would go ahead and replace all primary and secondary tensioners, guides, and chains.
 
SlickLS said:
Is this the same side that you had problems with a year ago? Seeing your car didnt break a chain, therefore you didnt damage a head, I would go ahead and replace all primary and secondary tensioners, guides, and chains.
Click to expand...

I think that if he does any less than that, he'll just be back into it again very soon.
 
SlickLS said:
Is this the same side that you had problems with a year ago? Seeing your car didnt break a chain, therefore you didnt damage a head, I would go ahead and replace all primary and secondary tensioners, guides, and chains.
Click to expand...

Sadly, I think I was "taken for a ride" a year ago when they supposedly replaced the tensioners. For $1,800 they should have replaced all tensioners and timing chains, but this tells me they didn't replace this one.

After a closer inspection the cam on the secondary chain is indeed off a tooth or two. So my game plan is to replace that secondary tensioner and while I am at it, align that cam's flat up with the cam on the primary chain.

I don't see a need in replacing anything else since the primary chains are tight and everything else seems fine.

If it fixes my issue great, if not, I will take the next step. I would rather start off with that and see where it takes me. I am pretty sure the primary tensioners must be what they replaced, because if they didn't replace the secondary, what DID they replace?

Has anyone ever heard of a secondary tensioner breaking after a year and a half? (Which brings me to believe that no one changed it.)
 
HawleyTronics said:
Sadly, I think I was "taken for a ride" a year ago when they supposedly replaced the tensioners. For $1,800 they should have replaced all tensioners and timing chains, but this tells me they didn't replace this one.

After a closer inspection the cam on the secondary chain is indeed off a tooth or two. So my game plan is to replace that secondary tensioner and while I am at it, align that cam's flat up with the cam on the primary chain.

I don't see a need in replacing anything else since the primary chains are tight and everything else seems fine.

If it fixes my issue great, if not, I will take the next step. I would rather start off with that and see where it takes me. I am pretty sure the primary tensioners must be what they replaced, because if they didn't replace the secondary, what DID they replace?

Has anyone ever heard of a secondary tensioner breaking after a year and a half? (Which brings me to believe that no one changed it.)
Click to expand...

Trust me, if the mechanic didn't replace the secondary tensioners, then NO WAY he touched the primary tensioners. You have to take the whole front of the motor off to get to the primary tensioners. To get to them you need to remove the front fan assembly, power steering pump, A/C compressor, pulleys, timing cover, and I am pretty sure I am missing something seeing I am not looking at my engine right now. Take mine and Joegr's advice and replace it all now before you damage it worse. You might even have damaged a valve seeing you said a cam was one tooth off. Might want to check into that now.
 
So this was done a year ago do you have any documentation like a receipt I will go back there and give them a piece if my mind or boot that's alot for a issue that didn't go away.
 
Hawley Tell me what your outcome of all of this is. My LS Is doing almost the exact same thing. And for it being a tooth or two off.. How did you find this out? Was the flats not lined up. Before I take mine apart im trying to see what the outcome of your teardown and all goes. Thanks!
 
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