first drive with LS/advancetrac in snow/ice

moe42171

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I couldn't move. I shut the AdvanceTrac off and it helped but still really struggled. I have new all seasons that are on my front wheel drive car and they get along fine. Going to put some weight in the trunk too. After returning home I saw in the owner's manual it says to hold the AdvanceTrac button down for 5 seconds and that will totally disable the system. Is that the trick? I am nowhere near being a rookie driving in snow or with rear wheel drive. I know I need some weight in the trunk and that will help. Any other tips?
 
weight in trunk helps out a lot...

snow tires also help (not the same as all seasons)

if your are serious about getting some traction, adding a LSD will help a ton



but at the end of the day its still a heavy RWD car. most FWD cars will still have an easier time getting going.
 
LSD? Will completely turning off the AdvanceTrac help also? The FWD car is to be my daughters which is why I bought the LS in the first place.
 
You can manually put the car in second gear and it will help keep the car from spinning on takeoff. The LS has an open diff, which means that when one wheel has traction and the other doesn't, the one that doesn't have traction will spin. If you have a hand brake instead of the little electric thing you can apply just enough parking brake to keep the free spinning wheel from spinning, which will force the car to apply power to both rear wheels equally acting like a LSD. Supposedly the electric parking brake allows the same thing (Joe said so, and he's an excellent source) but I can't say it does because I haven't yet played with it.

but at the end of the day its still a heavy RWD car. most FWD cars will still have an easier time getting going.

I always thought, and approved, of this as a way of keeping incompetent drivers off the road when it's snowing, and FWD is a way of allowing incompetent drivers to get a car moving that they have no business driving. Plus, any engine braking means the front wheels are sliding while the rear wheels are free rolling. Personally I've never had a problem driving RWD cars on ice and snow.
 
Thanks guys. Telco using the manual mode is a great idea. My FWD is a manual and I use the gears for slowing down all the time and of course early shifting to prefent spinning on acceleration too. I guess I wasn't prepared for the Advance Trac to start taking my power from my wheels while heading up a icy hill and by the time I thought to disable it I was in the middle of the hill and couldn't get going.
 
True snow tires all around - I never had an issue during last winter. In fact with the weather taking a nose drive this week, I plan this evening to swap on my set of slightly narrower minus zero sized 215/55-17 Michelin X-Ice Xi3 tires (XL load range 98H) on the second set of 17" rims.

I am still waiting on the aluminum differential case spreader tool to arrive so that I can install the LSD in the Gen I housing and get that along with the Gen I axle shafts installed as well.
 
It's a RWD car, so of course snow driving exciting. If you really have to drive it in snow, just don't leave yourself in a bad spot where you lose fwd momentum. I have found that as long as you keep moving she'll maintain course. I remember one time during a really bad storm I had to drive to work on 287 in NJ where there are loooong steep inclines, I had to keep feathering the throttle to keep her movin on up lol
 
What did we all do before the advent of FWD?????? The only reason for FWD is manufacturing simplicity. The myth that FWD is better in snow is/was a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to make us accept the limitations of FWD. There are many studies that compare FWD with RWD with AWD with 4WD. Balance was shown time and time again to be of much more importance than which wheels propelled the vehicle. The LS with proper snow tires is only limited by the lowish ground clearance.

And yes, I had a FWDer for 5 winters when we lived in SLC. Nothing like not being able to do anything in a traction-loss situation until the front wheels (hopefully) regain traction.
 
Couldn't have said it better. My LS has been my ski vehicle for the last 10 years. Good snows and momentum management will get you where you want to go. I carry chains but have only used them once.


What did we all do before the advent of FWD?????? The only reason for FWD is manufacturing simplicity. The myth that FWD is better in snow is/was a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to make us accept the limitations of FWD. There are many studies that compare FWD with RWD with AWD with 4WD. Balance was shown time and time again to be of much more importance than which wheels propelled the vehicle. The LS with proper snow tires is only limited by the lowish ground clearance.

And yes, I had a FWDer for 5 winters when we lived in SLC. Nothing like not being able to do anything in a traction-loss situation until the front wheels (hopefully) regain traction.
 
... If you have a hand brake instead of the little electric thing you can apply just enough parking brake to keep the free spinning wheel from spinning, which will force the car to apply power to both rear wheels equally acting like a LSD.


It's not going to force power anywhere, only reduce it as a system. You can get the same effect by putting it in 3rd or just controlling the gas better. Braking just the slipping wheel will "force" power to the other wheel, but braking both will not. TC brakes the slipping wheel and cuts power to maintain traction. ABS only [tries] to pulse the skidding wheel in a stop. Neither system want to brake all the wheels because that compounds the problem. TC becomes an issue in snow because it wants to maintain traction, not get you moving.

Would you use the regular brakes to get a FWD car moving? With the front weight distribution and forward brake bias, it'd pretty much be the same thing.
 
just throw a gerber e-tool in the trunk and you will be gtg soldier
 
Although I do love RWD, it's not as effecient to me in snow. I live in a place where we have invented
snow. LOL. I have had both FWD and RWD. Bar none to me, FWD in the snow is much better.
Especially if you have a V6 for the added weight, it's like a tractor.
 
But RWD is so much fun if you can find a nice safe wide open parking lot to do some figure eights :p
 
First and foremost no matter what, you new a good set of snow / winter tires.

Second you need to slow down and keep a safe distance between you and others.

Those are basic common sense type advice that applies to any vehicle.

Specifically for the LS - use the SST if you have it. Stay out of 1st gear! Start from a dead stop in 2nd gear. Only use 5th gear when driving on the highway. Basically you only need 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears (as well as Reverse) to get around. Try and keep the revs between 1000 and 2000 RPM. Up-shift at 2000 RPM and down-shift at 1000 RPM. Use engine compression braking to slow the car. Stay off the brake pedal until you have slowed the car down most of the way with the engine compression. Keep your momentum as much as possible in traffic - look ahead and try to gauge the traffic and lights. Heck, make a game out it - see how much better you can be than the other cars. If you do get stuck and you have Advance Trac - shut it completely off by holding the button down the full 5 seconds. Once you get moving again, turn it back on.

Yesterday and today I had to drive through white out conditions and several inches of lake effect snow with no issues at all. The low traction light came on once very briefly and I barely noticed. I was driving home on the freeway last evening in the high speed lane going 45 MPH passing everyone with zero issues in a lane that had not yet been plowed.

Yes I have owned many FWD cars and with snow tires they were darn near unstoppable in a straight line in winter weather - but they were also nose heavy pigs that under steered severely. At times you have to manhandle or slide the rear end around with the emergency brake to keep them off curbs and out of ditches when trying to make a turn. I learned how to drive in the blizzard winter of '76-77 in RWD cars. AWD and 4WD have their place, but they end up giving you a false sense of security and you can end up in a lot more trouble than it you didn't have them. Plus there are times with AWD and 4WD that you have to put the trany in neutral before you hit the brakes or on a slick surface you will spin like a top.

Good tires and a little common sense goes a long way.
 
It's not going to force power anywhere, only reduce it as a system. You can get the same effect by putting it in 3rd or just controlling the gas better. Braking just the slipping wheel will "force" power to the other wheel, but braking both will not. TC brakes the slipping wheel and cuts power to maintain traction. ABS only [tries] to pulse the skidding wheel in a stop. Neither system want to brake all the wheels because that compounds the problem. TC becomes an issue in snow because it wants to maintain traction, not get you moving.

Would you use the regular brakes to get a FWD car moving? With the front weight distribution and forward brake bias, it'd pretty much be the same thing.

Actually it does force power to both wheels. An open diff sends power to both wheel if both wheels have traction because of how it operates. The pinion spins the ring, the ring spins a side gear on one side, the differential pinion gears connect the opposite side gear. When both wheels have traction, the side gears do not spin in relation to each other and both wheels are driven. When one wheel loses traction in relation to the other, the differential pinion gears allow the side gears to spin in relation to each other, and power is routed to the wheel that has no traction. This is why you get such wonderful burnouts with an open differential. The fact that the rear axles are connected via side gears instead of a solid shaft is also what allows the rear wheels to spin at different speeds when going around corners. When you apply the parking brake enough to stop the free spinning of one wheel, the differential pinion no longer spins in relation to the side gears, and power is once again sent to both rear tires.

The idea behind a limited slip is to force the axles to lock to each other, transmitting power to both rear wheels regardless of traction. An Eaton style LSD operates as an open differential, but when one starts spinning faster than the other the clutches inside the LSD are forced together, effectively locking the axles together. This is why an LSD car will fishtail a bit, as power is initially not applied to both rear wheels equially. This is also why they stutter when going around corners, as the clutches are almost but not quite engaging each other because there is almost but not quite enough difference in speed for a good grab.

Then, of course, you have the Torsen style rear end which locks the rear wheels together at all times, and allows smooth cornering. There's a nice write-up on Wiki about them you can go look at, as I don't know them all that well. The open and Eaton I'm fairly familiar with though.

So far as whether I'd use the brakes in the same manner to get a front wheel drive moving, -I- would not. I do not drive front wheel drive trash, do not know how the differentials work in them, have no INTEREST in learning how they work, and will not really pay attention to anyone who posts how they work. Might as well ask me about the details of how to do successful Japanese style crappy karaoke as to how front wheel drive works. I'd actually be more interested in Japanese style crappy karaoke than front wheel drive. My interest in Japanese style crappy karaoke is only 0 percent. My interest in front wheel drive is way, way, way under that.
 
First and foremost no matter what, you new a good set of snow / winter tires.

Second you need to slow down and keep a safe distance between you and others.

Those are basic common sense type advice that applies to any vehicle.

Specifically for the LS - use the SST if you have it. Stay out of 1st gear! Start from a dead stop in 2nd gear. Only use 5th gear when driving on the highway. Basically you only need 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears (as well as Reverse) to get around. Try and keep the revs between 1000 and 2000 RPM. Up-shift at 2000 RPM and down-shift at 1000 RPM. Use engine compression braking to slow the car. Stay off the brake pedal until you have slowed the car down most of the way with the engine compression. Keep your momentum as much as possible in traffic - look ahead and try to gauge the traffic and lights. Heck, make a game out it - see how much better you can be than the other cars. If you do get stuck and you have Advance Trac - shut it completely off by holding the button down the full 5 seconds. Once you get moving again, turn it back on.

Yesterday and today I had to drive through white out conditions and several inches of lake effect snow with no issues at all. The low traction light came on once very briefly and I barely noticed. I was driving home on the freeway last evening in the high speed lane going 45 MPH passing everyone with zero issues in a lane that had not yet been plowed.

Yes I have owned many FWD cars and with snow tires they were darn near unstoppable in a straight line in winter weather - but they were also nose heavy pigs that under steered severely. At times you have to manhandle or slide the rear end around with the emergency brake to keep them off curbs and out of ditches when trying to make a turn. I learned how to drive in the blizzard winter of '76-77 in RWD cars. AWD and 4WD have their place, but they end up giving you a false sense of security and you can end up in a lot more trouble than it you didn't have them. Plus there are times with AWD and 4WD that you have to put the trany in neutral before you hit the brakes or on a slick surface you will spin like a top.

Good tires and a little common sense goes a long way.

THANK you. See, I am not the only one who has used a hand brake to control a car's direction on icy roads. In my area, what you see in the ditch is front wheel drives and 4 wheel drives, and usually the 4 wheel drives are jacked up redneck riders on their roofs. People who drive rear wheel drive cars who are good enough drivers to get them moving are also good enough drivers to keep them moving safely. FWD lets people who aren't capable drivers get their cars rolling, then when they try to stop the front wheels lock and there goes engine braking, steering and primary braking all in one go. A hand brake and neutral is the only way to regain control at that point, and you've got to be damned fast getting off the brakes, into neutral and hand on the handbrake before you spin out. And I see a lot of 4x4 trains when it snows in my area, where you have a half dozen 4x4s running 80MPH bumper to bumper. They fly by you now, then 3 miles or 10 minutes later there they are, upside down in a ditch looking all confused because they just found out 4x4s spin and roll when you stand on the brakes at 80MPH on icy roads. I drive a 4x4 as well as a RWD, but when the roads are icy I'm not hard charging down the road like I'm impervious to it all. I'm driving nice and easy, and I know I'll get where I'm going. Hell, I even drove a 93 Mercury Cougar V8 down HWY 81 from Maryland to Tennessee during that March 1993 blizzard. Drove the whole way about 20MPH all night long, no problems. Well, I did have problems making it between bathrooms, but I was the only one on the highway for miles. I just stopped in the middle of the interstate on the straightaways and let fly.
 
Did you read the post? Deaconblue says he used the handbrake in FWD cars to swing the rear around curbs. He used it to break traction, not maintain it.

Your understanding of how a FWD transmission doesn't matter. An open diff is an open diff. It's irrelevant how any of them operate internally because the brakes are only directly affecting the wheels. All that matters is how much the diffs will let the wheels rotate relative to each other (open=100% slip, LSD=~25%). You don't have to be arrogant about your complete disinterest in FWD "trash" and how poor their drivers are. Have you considered the increase in number of vehicles on the road, increase in population, and increased prevalence of FWD/AWD/4WD vehicles in your observations about most vehicles in the ditch being one of those drivetrain configurations? From 1970, the number of passenger vehicles has gone from 111,000,000 to 233,000,000. The US population has gone from 205,000,000 residents to 316,000,000. Both have approximately doubled. I can't find stats on RWD vs FWD sales, but the trend is apparent in that time frame.

Using the handbrake is applying a negative force on both drive wheels, effectively reducing total torque of the engine, not necessarily the individual wheels. Applying a left or right rear handbrake independently will absolutely regain traction, but I cannot see how applying the handbrake to both can increase traction any better than a higher gear with lower wheel torque.
 
...I can't find stats on RWD vs FWD sales, but the trend is apparent in that time frame.

That isn't a fair trend as starting in the late-70's/early 80's the vast majority of available cars were FWD. Outside of the S2000 I don't think Honda has ever sold a RWD car in this country. By the mid-80's it was tough to find a RWD family hauler (outside of the luxury marques). IIRC, Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge was totally FWD outside of their trucks. Even now, the only RWD car that FOMOCO sells is the Mustang! RWD is making a comeback, fortunately!

I bought in to the FWD myth until I actually had to deal with it over 6 winters. I was stuck with wrong way engine facing/nose heavy FWD for almost 20 years..... I'm not going back unless I'm forced to; again.
 
That isn't a fair trend as starting in the late-70's/early 80's the vast majority of available cars were FWD. Outside of the S2000 I don't think Honda has ever sold a RWD car in this country. By the mid-80's it was tough to find a RWD family hauler (outside of the luxury marques). IIRC, Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge was totally FWD outside of their trucks. Even now, the only RWD car that FOMOCO sells is the Mustang! RWD is making a comeback, fortunately!

I bought in to the FWD myth until I actually had to deal with it over 6 winters. I was stuck with wrong way engine facing/nose heavy FWD for almost 20 years..... I'm not going back unless I'm forced to; again.

The point is most cars sold in the last 40 years have been FWD, so most cars in the ditch are, statistically, going to be FWD. Yes, manufacturers quickly switched to FWD, but RWD vehicles still took time to phase out of use (save for the few models that have stayed RWD), through accidents and age. So what makes that an unfair comparison?

For the record, I'm all for RWD and prefer to not go back to FWD, either. I'll consider a FWD-based AWD vehicle, but as long as I can keep some performance-oriented RWD car on hand, I'm happy.
 
Jesus, this forum is inundated with this idiotic RWD, RWD, AWD argument.



I have driven many a winters in snowfall intensive locations in both RWD Crown Vics and FWD Impalas. Both are different beasts but the best thing you can do is get proper snow tires, they have the biggest impact by far.

This pissing match between FWD and RWD in the snow is useless banter because their advantages over each other are very situation specific. Once both are cruising down the road, its mostly the same. FWD is better for traction from a start due to the obvious weight over the drive axle, but this becomes an issue when trying to turn, especially while trying to turn and maintain speed/momentum. Likewise, starting from a stop in a RWD car can be extremely difficult because of the weight, but steering and throttle inputs can both be done together much easier than a FWD.

In a snowy ****show, neither is outright better than the other. Both are a huge compromise for a properly equipped vehicle. This argument here is nothing more than which one sucks less :slam




Outside of that, its simple tricks of the trade you learn that help. For instance I know most of us here have SST and have mentioned starting in 2nd. Well as far as basic automatics go, putting a Ford in "2" will actually start you off in "2", really useful. However, a Chevy will still start you off in "1" and let you get to "2", stupid. Back in my days of the Crown Vic I used bags of quickcrete in the trunk and dedicated snow tires and I got along just fine.


Seriously though if you expect to drive in any substantial snowfall, just get snow tires, this is not an option.
 
In one our crazy provinces here in Canada they've even gone as far as to make it illegal to drive without snow tires during the winter season.
All seasons won't do, they must equip their cars in that province with snow tires or face penalties. Demerit points also, I had understood.


"In the province of Quebec, Canada, winter tires are mandatory on all vehicles from Dec 15 to March 15"
 
Man, if you guys think the LS is bad, this is the second time I've had to pull out one of my F-Bodies in Wisconsin winters. A few years back, I had a '94 Formula 6-speed dropping about 420whp. My Volvo went down, and I had to drive the Formula for a month. I have a 140 mile a day commute. That was fun. Car had never seen winter before. I had snow tires on the stock 16's the 3rd day.

I'm doing it again right now. My daily driver was totaled hitting a deer on the highway. I'm driving my '94 z28 while I shop for a new car. Not as much power, being only 304whp, but the 3.73 gears and built auto trans aren't making it easy. I even hijacked my wife's AWD Pacifica one day.

I'm actually looking at LS's to replace the daily commuter. I test drove one during our last snow storm at a small dealer, and it did ok. Too bad the car was a POS. Completely neglected, and more than some far cleaner cars I've seen on CL.
 
Did you read the post? Deaconblue says he used the handbrake in FWD cars to swing the rear around curbs. He used it to break traction, not maintain it.

Your understanding of how a FWD transmission doesn't matter. An open diff is an open diff. It's irrelevant how any of them operate internally because the brakes are only directly affecting the wheels. All that matters is how much the diffs will let the wheels rotate relative to each other (open=100% slip, LSD=~25%). You don't have to be arrogant about your complete disinterest in FWD "trash" and how poor their drivers are. Have you considered the increase in number of vehicles on the road, increase in population, and increased prevalence of FWD/AWD/4WD vehicles in your observations about most vehicles in the ditch being one of those drivetrain configurations? From 1970, the number of passenger vehicles has gone from 111,000,000 to 233,000,000. The US population has gone from 205,000,000 residents to 316,000,000. Both have approximately doubled. I can't find stats on RWD vs FWD sales, but the trend is apparent in that time frame.

Using the handbrake is applying a negative force on both drive wheels, effectively reducing total torque of the engine, not necessarily the individual wheels. Applying a left or right rear handbrake independently will absolutely regain traction, but I cannot see how applying the handbrake to both can increase traction any better than a higher gear with lower wheel torque.

Yes, I read his post. He used the emergency brake to help control his car while in motion, which I have also done in the past. Did you not read MY post? I explained, pretty clearly, how the emergency brake can be used to help an open diff car get moving, and explained WHY using the emergency brake works. Applying the emergency brake makes certain that there is resistance on both rear wheels, which prevents the open diff from dumping all power to the wheel with no traction. Putting the car into a higher gear won't help if one wheel is on ice and the other has traction because it will still push power to the wheel that is on ice and not to the one that has traction. Obviously you don't drive all over town with the emergency brake on, you apply it slowly until the rear diff balances power transfer and gets you moving.

So far as what you were saying on FWD, sorry, that just kinda glazed. Any time someone starts talking about wrong wheel drive, I lose interest in what's being written. Don't care, won't care, won't change my opinion of it, will ignore any stats that support it, and am quite opinionated about it.
 
That isn't a fair trend as starting in the late-70's/early 80's the vast majority of available cars were FWD. Outside of the S2000 I don't think Honda has ever sold a RWD car in this country. By the mid-80's it was tough to find a RWD family hauler (outside of the luxury marques). IIRC, Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge was totally FWD outside of their trucks. Even now, the only RWD car that FOMOCO sells is the Mustang! RWD is making a comeback, fortunately!

I bought in to the FWD myth until I actually had to deal with it over 6 winters. I was stuck with wrong way engine facing/nose heavy FWD for almost 20 years..... I'm not going back unless I'm forced to; again.

Did you ever notice that this is also when the truck and SUV became the go-to vehicles of the American family? Had they kept making RWD cars, the SUV would never have come into prominence as it did, IMO.
 

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