Electrically Confused

[WendellAM]

As a disclaimer i found a thread that had the same problem dating back to 2009 but it didnt provide any resolution to the problem. and after skimming through about 7 pages of new searches i found i few similar issues but they didnt seem to be as compounding as mine.
I just recently joined the forum, and so far have really appreciated the depth of knowledge ive seen.

MY Problem: I started the Car and the Check Charging System(CCS) reads in the car status display. As im driving it back to my room, The ABS and AdvanceTrak lights come on when i pull into the Parking lot. Once parked i shut off the car, and then restart it to see if it will reproduce these symptoms. Turns over twice with no start. Off and On again, Same result. Off and On a Third Time Starts right up but with CCS in the display again. The Previous warnings come on and Then the radio cuts in and out, the headlights flicker (xenon headlights) and with the headlight flicker, the gauge cluster light goes out (cycle power restores lights briefly). i shut off power and leave it be very confused. Then in the morning i try to start it and the battery has nothing left. 1 turn over first start try, nothing but clicks next 2 tries.

In the thread i read that i unfortunately cant find again the OP had pretty much every symptom i had and the response was that someone had the same issue and took it to a dealer and they replaced fuses. And that was where the thread ended. Now I may be wrong but I thought fuses were a Go or No Go kinda thing. So im wondering if I have multiple simultaneous issues , and thats where i should start my potentially long and arduous process that is IHateElectricalProblems or if maybe someone can shed light as to why all these systems would be going insane at relatively the same time. Is it all a symptom of a bad alternator or maybe starter relay? being that my first symptom was the CCS status display.

Any help or Insight would be much appreciated.
Thank you

 

[1LoudLS]

sounds to me like you have a classic problem with the alternator (check charging system)

if the alternator is not working correctly, it can not charge the battery.

if nothing is charging the battery, then every thing is draining the battery.

if the battery gets too low, it will have problems starting the car like you mention, until it wont start at all.

driving around with a bad alt and draining the battery too low to much can cause damage to the battery.

a bad battery can cause the warnings for ABS, trac control, emergency brakes to go off all the time or randomly.

with out a good battery, its going to be hard for all of the electronic stuff in the car that you are complaining about to work properly.

when an alternator fails or a battery fails, it usually takes the other one out if not fixed quick enough.





now i could be totally wrong on this one, but it sounds like every single other case of bad battery/alternator we read about every week, not really so sure why you think your is so different from all the other pages of this?

 

[Wavez]

I agree sounds like a bad alternator

 

[WendellAM]

now i could be totally wrong on this one, but it sounds like every single other case of bad battery/alternator we read about every week, not really so sure why you think your is so different from all the other pages of this?

I was actually hoping to hear that it wasn't. Haha. I just didn't see the same combination of things not working,except in one thread, the one that i did find didn't have a solution.
And that may have just been the search terms i was using to try and find similar combinations. I just wanted to double check that there was a possibility of all these things being related. I talked to a guy up at the Firestone on base and he was hesitant to help because of the # of systems it seemed to be effecting. So that had me worried a little.
Ill change out the my now dead battery and test and confirm and get a new alternator in then.

 

[purevilpleasure]

How old is the battery?

 

[joegr]

...
Ill change out the my now dead battery and test and confirm and get a new alternator in then.

You really need to replace the alternator and the battery at the same time in your case. Otherwise, your bad alternator will damage the new battery, and your now damaged battery will hurt your new alternator.

 

[Telco]

You really need to replace the alternator and the battery at the same time in your case. Otherwise, your bad alternator will damage the new battery, and your now damaged battery will hurt your new alternator.

X2 on that. I played that game with an old El Camino I had once. Changed batteries and alternators about a week apart for about 6 weeks before it occurred to me that I needed to replace both at the same time. When I did that, the problem was solved. First batt and alt were because they were old, second cycle I assumed that the alt was bad out of the box since it was an Auto Zone rebuild and that it killed the second battery, third cycle the light came on and I replaced with a new, not rebuilt alternator and replaced the battery at the same time. Now I don't replace one without replacing the other, and it's either a brand new alternator or a rebuild that comes from a local shop that rebuilds them correctly. The major parts stores send them out to a rebuilder in Asia that replaces the bare minimum to get it back on the shelf and I've heard tell that sometimes the rebuild consists of degreasing the alternator without ever cracking it open.

 

[WendellAM]

Ok so thanks for all the input guys totally fixed my issue.....
but now i have 2 more issues haha
i replaced the alternator and battery and all the electrical now works fine... except the overhead lights and the floor board lights wont shut off when i lock the car.
......And now the car wont start. it turns over continuously but never actually starts. has gas and lifted the rear seat to listen to the fuel pump hum.

 

[1LoudLS]

the overhead lights and the floor board lights wont shut off when i lock the car.

check the roller switch for the dash board dimmer, and make sure it is not rolled all the way up, you should be able to feel the notch to shut them off but have the dash lights @ 100%

 

[joegr]

....And now the car wont start. it turns over continuously but never actually starts. has gas and lifted the rear seat to listen to the fuel pump hum.

Some quick things to try here...
What's the PATS light doing while you are trying to start it.
Check the fuses under the hood.
First, unplug the MAF and see if it will start then.
Try some starter fluid sprayed into the intake while cranking.
Measure the fuel pressure.

 

[WendellAM]

check the roller switch for the dash board dimmer, and make sure it is not rolled all the way up, you should be able to feel the notch to shut them off but have the dash lights @ 100%

Dimmer Switch Success!
now i just have the starting problem
pre-alternator battery swap good to go
post-engine sounds like it wants to turn over but won't do it
a relay possibly? .... something easy :shifty: possibly? eh?
lol its takes me a little while to get stuff done because im in an dorm with no garage

 

[WendellAM]

Some quick things to try here...
What's the PATS light doing while you are trying to start it.
Check the fuses under the hood.
First, unplug the MAF and see if it will start then.
Try some starter fluid sprayed into the intake while cranking.
Measure the fuel pressure.

going to start it and watch the PATS (didnt know it would do anything peculiar)
*PATS doesnt do anything while trying to start (blinks when turned on in sequence with dash indications )
all the fuses check good (checked all 3 boxes)
and then going to unplug the MAF and try that
*Same result
I dont know if i have a readily available way to test fuel pressure

 

[joegr]

going to start it and watch the PATS (didnt know it would do anything peculiar)
*PATS doesnt do anything while trying to start (blinks when turned on in sequence with dash indications )...

It should be on steady while trying to start the engine. If it is flashing rapidly, then it is indicating a problem. Leave the key on and when it slows down it will flash out one or more two digit codes a few times. If this is what it is doing, post the codes here.

 

[WendellAM]

PATS light is the red LED by the windshield correct?
blinks on with dash start up indications then turns off as the dash indications do
No constant per while starting and No rapid blinking or slow blinking for code while in ON position.

 

[WendellAM]

Thanks for all the help guys! i just realized i should been looking at other threads as far as the not starting problem goes. haha

 

[WendellAM]

Oh dear god help!
It happened again
Exact same symptoms every system went haywire and now the car won't start.
Barely even wants to turn over only tried twice cuz I don't want to completely kill the battery
Alternator and battery less than 2 months old.
I have no idea this time around
Any help at all would be a god send

 

[RigsLS]

Wow, sorry for your luck with that one, sounds nasty.

Perhaps double check your black negative grounding wiring from both battery and alternator ?

Has this LS seen a lot of aftermarket wiring done to it in the past,
anyone mess with the original wiring, tapping in to leads and such ?

 

[1LoudLS]

Oh dear god help!
It happened again
Exact same symptoms every system went haywire and now the car won't start.
Barely even wants to turn over only tried twice cuz I don't want to completely kill the battery
Alternator and battery less than 2 months old.
I have no idea this time around
Any help at all would be a god send

well a battery being dead, could actually not be anything wrong with the battery or the alternator...



you could have a drain issue, as in something in your car is not shutting down properly and draining the battery dead as it sits.

 

[WendellAM]

I haven't seen any indications of wire tapping aside from an aftermarket radio which I installed.
Any ideas as to what might be staying on? Something. That occurred with others of the same year. Or is that a shot in the dark and hope for some luck? The car threw up a check charging system warning before the electrics crashed. I had a friend jump me off and I got 5 miles before everything cut out I would have just driven it home but given it is dark that wasn't a risk I was willing to take.
If there was a drain on the battery would it have a few key components I could test through to help eliminate possible stray wire testing?

 

[WendellAM]

The check charging system coming up during normal driving is what led me to the alternator and battery swap a month and a half ago. And that solved the problem. I notices the first time around that higher rpm would remove the check charging light. Now I'm not sure if that was coincidental or a symptom result

 

[joegr]

What replacement alternator did you use? The LS doesn't play well with non-Ford alternators. Also be aware that you could have an electrical system problem related to the charging system that is not the alternator.

 

[WendellAM]

I didn't use a ford alternator.
What are other components are in the charging system. The alternator was the common denominator in a lot of the other threads so that was my go to fix. Which kinda worked haha. So I can't be sure but I imagine if I get the alternator out that it'll check good. Hopefully. And that will lead me to a short or battery drain elsewhere.

 

[scjmc]

What replacement alternator did you use? The LS doesn't play well with non-Ford alternators. Also be aware that you could have an electrical system problem related to the charging system that is not the alternator.

I went through 4 aftermarket alternators before I bought a Motorcraft. I had some fail within about a month. No joke (with good charged battery, good cables, connections etc.). I bet your alternator is gone again. Go warranty whatever aftermarket alternator you got for a replacement that will again fail in short order, or try to get your money back and buy a motorcraft reman.

 

[scjmc]

The alternator is regulated externally IIRC. I had a local trusted mechanic spend a ton of time troubleshooting after the third failure or so. He was concerned about the SIN wave on the charge command wire (or something like that coming from the PCM). He thought that the PCM might have been sending garbage signals to the alternator. My choices were change PCM, or change that alternator again (I was getting good at it). I changes the alternator again (part under warranty anyway), and problem solved...... Less that a year later I had another failure. Final resolution was installation of a Motorcraft reman. Sometimes I could get the check charging system light to go away by reving the engine. Other times the light and message would be on while it was actually charging. Again, resolution was Motorcraft replacement. The other alternators that I was using were NAPA remans.

 

[joegr]

I didn't use a ford alternator.
...

There's your problem.