Don't Ask, Don't Tell

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JohnnyBz00LS

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Apparently you missed my response to you. Care to actually confront it?


Can you provide any textual foundation in the founding documents for the "right" you assert? Or are you simply making up things without any regard for truth or honesty in the name of political expediency?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
- Declaration of Independence 7/4/1776

Now if you want to show any shred of wanting to debate this in good faith, you must show me a constitutional justification for the discrimination against gays serving in the military enabled by DADT. Show me the constitunional basis for treating gays UN-equally.

Constitutional Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Reaches Trial

Amanda Bronstad

The National Law Journal
July 14, 2010

The Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy excludes open homosexuals from serving in the U.S. military "solely on the basis of status and conduct that is constitutionally protected," a lawyer for a gay Republican group argued as trial opened Tuesday in a case that seeks to bar enforcement of the law.

The bench trial opened before U.S. District Judge Virginia Phillips in Riverside, Calif., as debate continued in Washington over legislation to repeal the ban.

"This case involves one of the most pressing civil rights issues in our great country today: The discrimination against homosexuals by our country's military," said Dan Woods, a partner in the Los Angeles office of White & Case, who is representing Log Cabin Republicans in its challenge pro bono. "There is no legitimate basis for Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and there never has been."

Assistant U.S. Attorney Paul Freeborne, defending the statute underlying the ban despite the Obama administration's push to repeal it, continued to assert that the case shouldn't even be in trial. The government, which had four lawyers from the Justice Department's Washington office on hand Tuesday, does not plan to call witnesses or present evidence beyond explaining the legislative history of the policy, which President Clinton signed into law in 1993.

"LCR's entire case at its core is an attempt to re-do these proceedings before Congress," said Freeborne, who works for the Justice Department's civil division. "You will not hear a government witness outside of the statute and legislative history. That is what the law demands and what is appropriate in facial challenges."

The case represents the only formal constitutional challenge to Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which allows the discharge of service members who are found to have engaged in a homosexual act, make a statement that demonstrates a "propensity" to engage in a homosexual act or have entered into a same-sex marriage or attempted marriage.

In a courtroom nearly packed with attorneys and spectators, lawyers on both sides spent a combined 30 minutes outlining their arguments. The trial should last about a week, the attorneys said.

Woods based his arguments on two precedents -- the U.S. Supreme Court's 2003 ruling in Lawrence v. Texas, which declared unconstitutional the state's criminalization of private, consensual sodomy; and a 2008 ruling by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Witt v. Dep't of the Air Force, which cited Lawrence in reinstating a challenge brought by an Air Force nurse who was discharged after superiors learned that she lived with a woman off base.

Last month, Phillips ruled that the Log Cabin Republicans could apply the Witt standard in their case. That effectively forces the government to argue that Don't Ask, Don't Tell is necessary to advance a legitimate governmental interest.

On Tuesday, Woods said that he intends to present numerous exhibits and witnesses, including some who have served in the military and testified before Congress. In its complaint, the Log Cabin Republicans identified two of its members, Alex Nicholson and "John Doe," as victims of the policy. Nicholson, who was discharged in 2002 after one year as a human intelligence coordinator for the U.S. Army, is expected to testify.

Woods also plans to present numerous reports and call several experts to testify that no legitimate rationale underlies the argument that the policy protects unit cohesion and that, in fact, several foreign militaries have openly gay service members. He intends to present data demonstrating the number of women and non-combat service members who have been discharged under the policy, and that discharges have declined during wartime.

As for the statute's legislative history, Woods argued that it is "replete with homophobic and other inappropriate passages."

"The government will offer no witnesses, either from the military or any branch of the government, to defend Don't Ask, Don't Tell," he said. "The government will offer no report, no study, no analysis, no book, not a single document, showing that Don't Ask, Don't Tell advances any important government interest -- because there is no such document."

Freeborne's remarks mirrored many of his previous arguments. He continued to press the government's argument that the Log Cabin Republicans lacked standing to bring the suit, which was filed in 2004, because neither Nicholson nor Doe have sufficient membership in the organization. He also continued to point to 9th Circuit precedent -- specifically, two cases called Holmes v. Calif. Army Nat'l Guard and Philips v. Perry, both of which upheld Don't Ask, Don't Tell on constitutional grounds.

On the political front, the House of Representatives has approved an amendment to the defense authorization bill that would repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but the White House has threatened a veto over an unrelated matter -- because it would fund an alternative engine for the controversial F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The Senate is expected to take up the bill this summer.

The legislation in both chambers would require repeal only after a Defense Department review of the policy is completed in December and Obama and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates certify that the military is prepared for the change.

Although no senior ranking government officials are expected to testify, Woods said that he planned to present statements made by Obama, Gates and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mike Mullen in support of repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Your turn, Shag.
 
DADT was important for unit cohesion. I guess you'd favor military women and men sharing the same showers? Would that make the women comfortable? It's the same exact problem. Like it or not, a squadron/platoon/whatever isn't going to work as well as a unit when some of its members aren't comfortable with the environment.

The military should not be used as a laboratory for social experimentation.

Either way, I suggest the mods move this to a new thread and we invite all ex-military to opine on the issue.
 
Johnny, the idea that "all men are created equal" in no way supports your assertion of an "EQUAL rights to serve our country without being FORCED to LIE to your fellow soldiers."

First, you have to understand the context that line was created in. But observing context has never been your strong suit.

Even ignoring context, that line still doesn't support your claim. You would have to assume that it meant for equality in any and every imaginable sense, which is absurd. It limits to an observation about creation and that has no implications what so ever to serving the country.

Are you really this ignorant and moronic or are you simply being opportunistic and stubborn?
 
So much with debating the issue in good faith. As I predicted, you resort to personal attacks and parsing my words to twist the meaning in a lame attempt to play "gotcha" on some made up "technicality".

Johnny, the idea that "all men are created equal" in no way supports your assertion of an "EQUAL rights to serve our country without being FORCED to LIE to your fellow soldiers."

First, you have to understand the context that line was created in. But observing context has never been your strong suit.

Even ignoring context, that line still doesn't support your claim. You would have to assume that it meant for equality in any and every imaginable sense, which is absurd. It limits to an observation about creation and that has no implications what so ever to serving the country.

Maybe I needed to BOLD the entire sentence for your beedy little eyes to see:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
- Declaration of Independence 7/4/1776

It is no stretch that this statement means that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and are endowed with the same RIGHTS. It doesn't say "all men are created equal except if you are gay, in that case you don't get the same RIGHTS to liberty and to be happy as a non-gay".

It is also no stretch that being forced to live a lie while exercising LIBERTY to serve your own country is NOT a recipe for "HAPPINESS". Thus, DADT infringes on those rights.

If you are INCAPABLE of responding in kind, to my challenge, just admit it. I understand COMPLETELY that you of all people don't HAVE all the answers. I repeat for a 2nd time, show me a constitutional justification for the discrimination against gays serving in the military enabled by DADT. Show me the constitutional basis for treating gays UN-equally. If you CAN show me that, then I'll concede this debate to you. Simple as that.
 
Johnny, the portion you have bolded in no way supports your claim.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
You clearly do not understand the idea of Natural Rights that was being conveyed there. To misuse it as you do demonstrates that fact. Call it "personal attacks", throw all the temper tantrums and engage in all the self-righteous posturing you want, but that is simply an accurate observation from someone who has done extensive study of the views of the Framers and actually does understand what was and was not being inferred in that passage.

If that passage you cite in some way did support your claim, you could actually make the argument, show the logical connection (without distorting the meaning of that passage) instead of simply citing irrelevant passages of the Declaration and crying "personal attack!" when it is pointed out that there is no logical connection.

FYI, the constitution grants the military the authority to set whatever rules of conduct they deem appropriate. There is NO constitutional restriction on the military in this area whatsoever.

Your implication that somehow "rights" are being infringed upon, distorts the nature of rights (specifically how they were understood when the Declaration and the Constitution was written). Your argument is conceptually flawed in this area.

The military cannot, in it's rules of conduct infringe upon individual rights because, by signing up to serve in the military you inherently forfeit those rights in that role of military service. Your entire argument is conceptually flawed in this area as well.

The implication that somehow homosexuals rights are not being equally protected is another conceptual flaw that has been discussed countless times on this forum. It is a conceptual flaw that infers extra rights for homosexuals. If you are not going to familiarize yourself with those previous arguments, then you are being exceedingly presumptuous and rude. What else is new, eh? ;)
 
Johnny, the portion you have bolded in no way supports your claim.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
You clearly do not understand the idea of Natural Rights that was being conveyed there. To misuse it as you do demonstrates that fact. Call it "personal attacks", throw all the temper tantrums and engage in all the self-righteous posturing you want, but that is simply an accurate observation from someone who has done extensive study of the views of the Framers and actually does understand what was and was not being inferred in that passage.

If that passage you cite in some way did support your claim, you could actually make the argument, show the logical connection (without distorting the meaning of that passage) instead of simply citing irrelevant passages of the Declaration and crying "personal attack!" when it is pointed out that there is no logical connection.

FYI, the constitution grants the military the authority to set whatever rules of conduct they deem appropriate. There is NO constitutional restriction on the military in this area whatsoever.

Your implication that somehow "rights" are being infringed upon, distorts the nature of rights (specifically how they were understood when the Declaration and the Constitution was written). Your argument is conceptually flawed in this area.

The military cannot, in it's rules of conduct infringe upon individual rights because, by signing up to serve in the military you inherently forfeit those rights in that role of military service. Your entire argument is conceptually flawed in this area as well.

The implication that somehow homosexuals rights are not being equally protected is another conceptual flaw that has been discussed countless times on this forum. It is a conceptual flaw that infers extra rights for homosexuals. If you are not going to familiarize yourself with those previous arguments, then you are being exceedingly presumptuous and rude. What else is new, eh? ;)

You beat me to it, although you probably phrased it better than I would have. Let's see---
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." Nope, I don't see "...the right to proclaim a male choice of sucking a dick..." in there anywhere.
Sorry (at least a little) for the crudeness but I hope it gets the point across.

KS
 
fossten said:
I gave a good faith answer and you ignored it.
I wasn't referring to your post #62. You did NOT respond to my earlier question in post #46 in your response to your accusation way back in post #27. How much more simply do I have to spell it out for your feeble little brain?

Your refusal to respond to my EARLIER question gives me no reason to continue any discussion with you, and only proves your incapacity for a good-faith debate and your continued insistence to hide behind Cal's skirt.

cammerfe said:
Let's see---"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." Nope, I don't see "...the right to proclaim a male choice of sucking a dick..." in there anywhere.
Fortunately for you, the constitution does NOT RESTRICT your FREEDOM to be gay, if that is what makes you HAPPY. If you think the constitution DOES RESTRICT your freedom to be gay, then show me WHERE in the constitution it does that. Don't waste my time by responding unless you can do that.

The lack of explicitly stating that being gay is OK doesn't prove that being gay doesn't fall within "pursuit of Happiness" clause, just like the constitution doesn't explicitly say you have the freedom to pursue a career in Information Technology doesn't mean that you CAN'T.

The question on the table is more narrow: Is the military policy restricting openly gay people from serving in the military have any constitutional basis?

shagdrum said:
Johnny, the portion you have bolded in no way supports your claim.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness​

You clearly do not understand the idea of Natural Rights that was being conveyed there. To misuse it as you do demonstrates that fact. Call it "personal attacks", throw all the temper tantrums and engage in all the self-righteous posturing you want, but that is simply an accurate observation from someone who has done extensive study of the views of the Framers and actually does understand what was and was not being inferred in that passage.

If that passage you cite in some way did support your claim, you could actually make the argument, show the logical connection (without distorting the meaning of that passage) instead of simply citing irrelevant passages of the Declaration and crying "personal attack!" when it is pointed out that there is no logical connection.

So you admit to interpreting the founding documents to formulate your own understanding of them. Got it. And QUIT with the personal attacks and SHOW me where in the constitution or any of the founding documents that it states gays are NOT "created" equal and shall NOT be granted the SAME rights as any other person. It is ABSOLUTELY LOGICAL to conclude that gays are entitled to these same Natural Rights as heterosexuals. “All men are created equal” is THE basic fundamental ideal upon which this great country is founded. You’d have to apply some twisted logic to conclude that “all men are created equal” means that homosexuals do NOT have the same fundamental rights as heterosexuals.

It seems you are attempting to rationalize your "no logical connection" claim with some theory that gays are "not created equal" to heterosexual people. I'd be interested in hearing about your theory on how it is determined upon birth whether an infant has a homo- or heterosexual orientation.

shagdrum said:
FYI, the constitution grants the military the authority to set whatever rules of conduct they deem appropriate. There is NO constitutional restriction on the military in this area whatsoever.

Your implication that somehow "rights" are being infringed upon, distorts the nature of rights (specifically how they were understood when the Declaration and the Constitution was written). Your argument is conceptually flawed in this area.

The military cannot, in it's rules of conduct infringe upon individual rights because, by signing up to serve in the military you inherently forfeit those rights in that role of military service. Your entire argument is conceptually flawed in this area as well.

I have not contended that the military is not allowed to restrict service member's rights. However, not ALL rights are surrendered and I believe the military must justify any restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell
Don't ask, don't tell (DADT) is the common term for the policy restricting the United States military from efforts to discover or reveal closeted gay, lesbian, and bisexual service members or applicants, while barring those who are openly gay, lesbian, or bisexual from military service. The restrictions are mandated by federal law Pub.L. 103-160 (10 U.S.C. § 654). Unless one of the exceptions from 10 U.S.C. § 654(b) applies, the policy prohibits anyone who "demonstrate(s) a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts" from serving in the armed forces of the United States, because "it would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability." The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces.

So, I'll concede that indirectly, the constitution allows the military to discriminate against gays, but only if they can justify it. Specifically, discrimination against gays by the military is not inherently allowed willy-nilly by the constitution as you seem to be implying it is. Additionally, the military’s justification for that discrimination against gays is on loose footing.

From the same link:

In 1993, Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., associate research psychologist at the University of California at Davis and a national authority on public attitudes toward lesbians and gay men, testified before the House Armed Services Committee, chaired by Representative Ron Dellums. Dr. Herek testified on behalf of the American Psychological Association and five other national professional organizations; the American Psychiatric Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Counseling Association, the American Nursing Association, and the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States. Dr. Herek testified: "My written testimony to the Committee summarizes the results of an extensive review of the relevant published research from the social and behavioral sciences. That review is lengthy. However, I can summarize its conclusions in a few words: The research data show that there is nothing about lesbians and gay men that makes them inherently unfit for military service, and there is nothing about heterosexuals that makes them inherently unable to work and live with gay people in close quarters."[25] In his testimony, Dr. Herek reviewed existing scientific research concerning issues of unit cohesion and effectiveness and the fitness of lesbians and gay men for military service. He concluded that straight personnel can overcome their prejudices and adapt to living and working in close quarters with gays. Furthermore, he said gays are not inherently less capable of military service than are straight women and men. "The assumption that heterosexuals cannot overcome their prejudices toward gay people is a mistaken one," said Dr. Herek.[26] Dr. Herek stated in 2008: "Today, as then (1993), the real question is not whether sexual minorities can be successfully integrated into the military. The social science data answered this question in the affirmative then, and do so even more clearly now. Rather, the issue is whether the United States is willing to repudiate its current practice of antigay discrimination and address the challenges associated with a new policy."[27]

American Psychological Association states:

Empirical evidence fails to show that sexual orientation is germane to any aspect of military effectiveness including unit cohesion, morale, recruitment and retention (Belkin, 2003; Belkin & Bateman, 2003; Herek, Jobe, & Carney, 1996; MacCoun, 1996; National Defense Research Institute, 1993).

Comparative data from foreign militaries and domestic police and fire departments show that when lesbians, gay men and bisexuals are allowed to serve openly there is no evidence of disruption or loss of mission effectiveness (Belkin & McNichol, 2000–2001; Gade, Segal, & Johnson, 1996; Koegel, 1996).

When openly gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals have been allowed to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces (Cammermeyer v. Aspin, 1994; Watkins v. United States Army, 1989/1990), there has been no evidence of disruption or loss of mission effectiveness.

The U.S. military is capable of integrating members of groups historically excluded from its ranks, as demonstrated by its success in reducing both racial and gender discrimination (Binkin & Bach, 1977; Binkin, Eitelberg, Schexnider, & Smith, 1982; Kauth & Landis, 1996; Landis, Hope, & Day, 1984; Thomas & Thomas, 1996).[28]​

And…….

Military personnel opinion

A 2006 Zogby International poll of military members found that 26% favor of gays serving in the military, 37% opposed, and 37% expressed no preference or were unsure. 66% of respondents who had experience with gays in their unit said their presence had either no impact or a positive impact on their personal morale, while 64% said the same applied to overall unit morale. As for respondents uncertain whether they had served with gay personnel, 51% thought gays would have a neutral or positive effect on personal morale, while 48% thought that they would have a negative effect. More generally, 73% of respondents said that they felt comfortable in the presence of gay and lesbian personnel.[34]

Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John Shalikashvili (Ret.)[35] and former Senator and Secretary of Defense William Cohen[36] spoke against the policy publicly in January 2007: "I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces," General Shalikashvili wrote. "Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job."[37]

In December 2007, 28 retired generals and admirals urged Congress to repeal the policy, citing evidence that 65,000 gay men and women are currently serving in the armed forces and that there are over 1,000,000 gay veterans.[37][38] On November 17, 2008, 104 retired generals and admirals signed a similar statement.[38]

On May 4, 2008, while Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen addressed the graduating cadets at West Point, a cadet asked what would happen if the next administration were supportive of legislation allowing gays to serve openly. Mullen responded, "Congress, and not the military, is responsible for [DADT]." Previously, during his Senate confirmation hearing in 2007, Mullen told lawmakers, "I really think it is for the American people to come forward, really through this body, to both debate that policy and make changes, if that's appropriate." He went on to say, "I'd love to have Congress make its own decisions" with respect to considering repeal.[39]

In an interview on CNN's State of the Union broadcast on July 5, 2009, Colin Powell said he thought that the policy was "correct for the time" but that "sixteen years have now gone by, and I think a lot has changed with respect to attitudes within our country, and therefore I think this is a policy and a law that should be reviewed." In the same program, Admiral Mullen said the policy would continue to be implemented until the law was repealed, and that his advice was to "move in a measured way... At a time when we're fighting two conflicts there is a great deal of pressure on our forces and their families."[40]

What proponents of DADT are relying on:

Letter of support for maintaining DADT
Citing a letter signed by "over one thousand former general and flag officers who have weighed in on this issue," Senator John McCain of Arizona claimed that "we should pay attention and benefit from the experience and knowledge" of these officers. At the February 2, 2010 congressional hearing of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, McCain read directly from the letter, saying "We firmly believe that this law, which Congress passed to protect good order, discipline and morale in the unique environment of the armed forces deserves continued support." Servicemembers United, a veterans' group opposed to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," issued a subsequent report on the letter’s legitimacy. They found that the letter’s claimed signees included officers who had no knowledge of their inclusion, who had refused to be included, and even veterans who had died before the survey was conducted, including one instance of a widow signing the letter in the guise of her husband, a former general. The average age of the officers listed in the letter was 74, the oldest was 98, and Servicemembers United noted that "only a small fraction of these officers have even served in the military during the 'Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell' period, much less in the 21st century military.

So in a nutshell, the constitution allows the military to set POLICY they deem is necessary to perform their duties. The military evolves a series of policies beginning in 1942 restricting the ability for gays to serve in the military, resulting in the UCMJ passed by Congress in 1950. In partial response to the gay and lesbian rights movement in the ‘70s, in 1982 the DOD issued a Defense Directive 1332.14 which established that it was military policy that "homosexuality is incompatible with military service" and persons who engaged in homosexual acts or stated that they are homosexual or bisexual were discharged. In response to the brutal murder of of gay U.S. Navy petty officer Allen R. Schindler, Jr. by shipmate Terry M. Helvey in 1992, presidential candidate Bill Clinton promised to repeal that directive. After Clinton won the presidency, Congress rushed to enact the existing gay ban policy into federal law, outflanking Clinton's planned repeal effort. After Clinton’s election to the presidency, he introduced Congressional legislation to overturn the ban, but it encountered intense scrutiny by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, members of Congress, and portions of the U.S. public. “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” emerged as a compromise policy. Now a generation later attitudes have progressed and it seems that it is time for DADT to be repealed (except for a handful of proponents who resort to falsifying signatures to make their case).

This doesn’t change the fact that DADT and all of the anti-gay military policies that preceded it are discriminatory in nature towards gays, and as such conflicts with the fundamental notion that all Americans should be treated equally (which was my original point). There may have been valid justification to restrict gays serving in the military back in the 1940s before the US learned to overcome their hatred towards gays, but that is no longer the case today for mainstream America OR today's military servicemen and women.

shagdrum said:
The implication that somehow homosexuals rights are not being equally protected is another conceptual flaw that has been discussed countless times on this forum. It is a conceptual flaw that infers extra rights for homosexuals.

Yeah, I am familiar with your straw-man arguments that turn facts on their heads and draw flawed comparisons so that you can “infer” a conceptual win. (YAWN). Wake me up when/if you ever provide that constitutional excerpt that says it’s “the American way” to discriminate against gays. Until then, I’m done wasting my time with you.
 
And QUIT with the personal attacks and SHOW me where in the constitution or any of the founding documents that it states gays are NOT "created" equal and shall NOT be granted the SAME rights as any other person.

You are still functioning under a false premise. Unless you can justify that premise this is a loaded question. This is not an issue of "rights" and you can't show it is yet your argument operationally assumes it is.

It is ABSOLUTELY LOGICAL to conclude that gays are entitled to these same Natural Rights as heterosexuals. “All men are created equal” is THE basic fundamental ideal upon which this great country is founded.

Yes, and I have never said or implied anything differently. But not anything and everything is a right and rights are not whatever you want them to be. You are, again, functioning under a conceptual flaw here. Unless you have a grasp of what rights are and are not, where they come from and how they work within the government, we are simply yelling past each other and there is no discourse to be had.

It seems you are attempting to rationalize your "no logical connection" claim with some theory that gays are "not created equal" to heterosexual people.

Not at all.

You are twisting my words; likely to fit some preconceived stereotype of the "typical" conservative argument on this issue.

My argument is my own, not what you may want it to be out of convenience for your argument. If you cannot confront my argument there is no dialog to be had.

However, not ALL rights are surrendered and I believe the military must justify any restrictions.

I am not contending that all rights are surrendered. Just whatever is necessary for the purposes of the military.
 
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