Dems playing games in Senate now

MonsterMark

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This is exactly why this country is divided and partisanship rules the day.


By LIZ SIDOTI
Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON


Democrats forced the Republican-controlled Senate into an unusual closed session Tuesday, questioning intelligence that led to the Iraq war and deriding a lack of congressional inquiry.

"I demand on behalf of the America people that we understand why these investigations aren't being conducted," Democratic leader Harry Reid said.



Taken by surprise, Republicans derided the move as a political stunt.

"The United States Senate has been hijacked by the Democratic leadership," said Majority Leader Bill Frist. "They have no convictions, they have no principles, they have no ideas," the Republican leader said.

Reid demanded the Senate go into closed session. The public was ordered out of the chamber, the lights were dimmed, and the doors were closed. No vote is required in such circumstances.

Reid's move shone a spotlight on the continuing controversy over intelligence that President Bush cited in the run-up to the war in Iraq. Despite prewar claims, no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, and some Democrats have accused the administration of manipulating the information that was in their possession.

Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was indicted last Friday in an investigation that touched on the war, the leak of the identity of a CIA official married to a critic of the administration's Iraq policy.

"The Libby indictment provides a window into what this is really all about, how this administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions," Reid said before invoking Senate rules that led to the closed session.

Libby resigned from his White House post after being indicted on charges of obstruction of justice, making false statements and perjury.

Democrats contend that the unmasking of Valerie Plame was retribution for her husband, Joseph Wilson, publicly challenging the Bush administration's contention that Iraq was seeking to purchase uranium from Africa. That claim was part of the White House's justification for going to war.

Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., said Reid was making "some sort of stink about Scooter Libby and the CIA leak."

A former majority leader, Lott said a closed session was appropriate for such overarching matters as impeachment and chemical weapons _ the two topics that last sent the senators into such sessions.

In addition, Lott said, Reid's move violated the Senate's tradition of courtesy and consent. But there was nothing in Senate rules enabling Republicans to thwart Reid's effort.

As Reid spoke, Frist met in the back of the chamber with a half-dozen senior GOP senators, including Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts, who bore the brunt of Reid's criticism. Reid said Roberts reneged on a promise to fully investigate whether the administration exaggerated and manipulated intelligence leading up to the war.
 
That was a good article, not sure how it's partisan though. Some people want answers to why nothing that was promised (i.e. WMD's, Al Qaeda ties to Saddam, where's Osama, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ) didn't come to be. I think we owe the 2000 (and climbing) dead soldiers families at least a decent answer.
 
95DevilleNS said:
That was a good article, not sure how it's partisan though. Some people want answers to why nothing that was promised (i.e. WMD's, Al Qaeda ties to Saddam, where's Osama, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ) didn't come to be. I think we owe the 2000 and climbing dead soldiers families at least a decent answer.

Yes, I'm still waiting for Vitas and MonsterMark to answer my questions on the matter.
 
Great! Let's investigate the crap out of this thing, including, but not limited to: Why Clinton bombed Iraq in '98 saying he was a WMD threat, Joe Wilson's lies, who in the Senate (including Kerry and the Dems) said Iraq was a threat, the media's complicity, etc. Let's get it all on the table so we can resolve this!
 
Here's your reason.

2000+ Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airman and Coast Guardsmand voluntarily joined the Armed Forces of the United States of America. We vowed to defend not only our country soil and people but her interests as well. This includes the stability of Southwest Asia. The obvious reason being the massive oil reserves that our country apparently cannot live without. One of the byproducts of this is that we managed to plant a seed of freedom and hope in an area that has seen little of either. We now have a responsibility to see it through.

It is far too easy to think that the only reason we should involve ourselves militarily in world affairs is to protect our own freedom and democracy. We actually haven't done that since the war of 1812 (and WE started that one). Or when the world gets together to fight together like a big all star team. Well that doesn't work either because it ends up being mostly us and the brits with one french guy to wave a flag. Been there...seen that.

Oh but then there's the "Saddam wasn't hurting anybody" bit. Well I would like you to meet some fighter pilots that were regularly shot at. I believe they could shoot holes all through that theory. Saddam was in direct violation of the UN resolutions from one day after Operation Desert Storm until the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The reasons for going into Iraq that were touted on television screens were wrong. I willingly admit to that. But there were far better reasons. Reasons that others understood and were not front page news. Some may not like them. They may not like that oil apparently is worth the blood of our sons and daughters. But that certainly doesn't stop them from filling up the Excursion.

Oh and Saddam had WMD's...where they are I do not know. We may never know. But just because Ted Kennedy ain't got any liquor on him doesn't mean he doesn't drink.
 
If there were better reasons for going into Iraq, I seriously think the Bush admin would of been happy to of said those than the one's touted on TV, which were wrong as you admit. That's like willingly telling a bad lie when you know the truth will be more acceptable.

If you know these better reasons please do tell, it would put many people at ease and definately help Bush with his war.

And if Saddam had WMD's, the terrorist we apparently are fighting in Iraq would of used them by now as someone else pointed out. Why kill 4-5 soldiers at a time with a human driven car bomb when one could let off a nuke or lay out some serine gas and kill hundreds if not thousands for example.
 
FreeFaller said:
Here's your reason.

2000+ Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airman and Coast Guardsmand voluntarily joined the Armed Forces of the United States of America. We vowed to defend not only our country soil and people but her interests as well. This includes the stability of Southwest Asia. The obvious reason being the massive oil reserves that our country apparently cannot live without. One of the byproducts of this is that we managed to plant a seed of freedom and hope in an area that has seen little of either. We now have a responsibility to see it through.

It is far too easy to think that the only reason we should involve ourselves militarily in world affairs is to protect our own freedom and democracy. We actually haven't done that since the war of 1812 (and WE started that one). Or when the world gets together to fight together like a big all star team. Well that doesn't work either because it ends up being mostly us and the brits with one french guy to wave a flag. Been there...seen that.

Oh but then there's the "Saddam wasn't hurting anybody" bit. Well I would like you to meet some fighter pilots that were regularly shot at. I believe they could shoot holes all through that theory. Saddam was in direct violation of the UN resolutions from one day after Operation Desert Storm until the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The reasons for going into Iraq that were touted on television screens were wrong. I willingly admit to that. But there were far better reasons. Reasons that others understood and were not front page news. Some may not like them. They may not like that oil apparently is worth the blood of our sons and daughters. But that certainly doesn't stop them from filling up the Excursion.

Oh and Saddam had WMD's...where they are I do not know. We may never know. But just because Ted Kennedy ain't got any liquor on him doesn't mean he doesn't drink.

I don't see why we need to involve ourselves in SW Asia. Let me ask, is it our 'right' to impose 'democracy' on other nations by force, if necessary? (Condi Rice said as much in her talk at Princeton University recently.) Whatever happened to self-determination?

So you're admitting that this is basically a war to protect our oil interests.
 
Ah, so it's ok to waste money on a special prosecutor and convene Congress for impeachment hearings b/c Clinton 'wasn't forthcoming about oral sex', where as it's not ok to waste money on a special prosecutor and convene Congress b/c Bush/LibbyCheney 'weren't forthcoming about war'?

I would think that misrepresentation about the justification for war is just as important, if not more so, than misrepresentation of oral sex in the Oval office.
 
captainalias said:
Ah, so it's ok to waste money on a special prosecutor and convene Congress for impeachment hearings b/c Clinton 'wasn't forthcoming about oral sex', where as it's not ok to waste money on a special prosecutor and convene Congress b/c Bush/LibbyCheney 'weren't forthcoming about war'?

I would think that misrepresentation about the justification for war is just as important, if not more so, than misrepresentation of oral sex in the Oval office.


I think it's a little more important, 2000 (and climbing) soldiers plus countless Iraqi men women and children didn’t die because Clinton lied about a BJ. Was it wrong that he lied and cheated on his wife? Sure it was, but the only casulty was one blue dress.

I'm curious to see what the conservatives respond with to your post.
 
A simple question would be, if it were Clinton who invaded Iraq on the pretext of WMDs, don't you think the right would be clamoring for his impeachment and a special investigation?
 
95DevilleNS said:
If there were better reasons for going into Iraq, I seriously think the Bush admin would of been happy to of said those than the one's touted on TV, which were wrong as you admit...

Ah, but in saying that you verify that Bush didn't lie, but rather that the intelligence by which we went to war was faulty. Big difference. If there were better reasons, then he definitely would have said them? Then there weren't, right? So what he told us was what he believed. And what the press believed, and what the Brits believed, and what the Democrats believed, and what Clinton believed, ad infinitum.

Totally contradicts your previous assertions that Bush deliberately lied, not to mention the fact that you've never offered any proof that Bush lied.


95DevilleNS said:
If you know these better reasons please do tell, it would put many people at ease and definately help Bush with his war.

And if Saddam had WMD's, the terrorist we apparently are fighting in Iraq would of used them by now as someone else pointed out. Why kill 4-5 soldiers at a time with a human driven car bomb when one could let off a nuke or lay out some serine gas and kill hundreds if not thousands for example.

Why indeed.

Your cause-and-effect argument doesn't hold water. Your assumption is that the only reason we haven't seen the WMDs used is because they don't exist. There are plenty of possible reasons why they haven't been used, some of which are these:

1. The terrorists don't have them.
2. Syria's government has them.
3. They are being smuggled over to use on our homeland like 9/11.
4. They are being saved/smuggled for use against Israel.
5. They are being saved by the Syrian government for defense purposes.
6. They were so well hidden that no one can find them.

There. That took more time to write than to think of.

I bet if I thought for five minutes more I could think of another six reasons.

For you to assert your paper-thin argument assumes that all of the above (and several other possibilities) are not possible, and you simply can't do that because you just DON'T KNOW. Go back to the drawing board and use another argument, or better yet, how about presenting some facts for a change.
 
captainalias said:
A simple question would be, if it were Clinton who invaded Iraq on the pretext of WMDs, don't you think the right would be clamoring for his impeachment and a special investigation?

Actually, Clinton bombed Iraq on WMD suspicions, and nobody said a word.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

From CNN.com, December 16, 1998
Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike

CLINTON: Good evening.

Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

I want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish.

Six weeks ago, Saddam Hussein announced that he would no longer cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors called UNSCOM. They are highly professional experts from dozens of countries. Their job is to oversee the elimination of Iraq's capability to retain, create and use weapons of mass destruction, and to verify that Iraq does not attempt to rebuild that capability.

The inspectors undertook this mission first 7.5 years ago at the end of the Gulf War when Iraq agreed to declare and destroy its arsenal as a condition of the ceasefire.

The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.

The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again.

The United States has patiently worked to preserve UNSCOM as Iraq has sought to avoid its obligation to cooperate with the inspectors. On occasion, we've had to threaten military force, and Saddam has backed down.

Faced with Saddam's latest act of defiance in late October, we built intensive diplomatic pressure on Iraq backed by overwhelming military force in the region. The UN Security Council voted 15 to zero to condemn Saddam's actions and to demand that he immediately come into compliance.

Eight Arab nations -- Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman -- warned that Iraq alone would bear responsibility for the consequences of defying the UN.

When Saddam still failed to comply, we prepared to act militarily. It was only then at the last possible moment that Iraq backed down. It pledged to the UN that it had made, and I quote, a clear and unconditional decision to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors.

I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate.

I made it very clear at that time what unconditional cooperation meant, based on existing UN resolutions and Iraq's own commitments. And along with Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully, we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning.

Now over the past three weeks, the UN weapons inspectors have carried out their plan for testing Iraq's cooperation. The testing period ended this weekend, and last night, UNSCOM's chairman, Richard Butler, reported the results to UN Secretary-General Annan.

The conclusions are stark, sobering and profoundly disturbing.

In four out of the five categories set forth, Iraq has failed to cooperate. Indeed, it actually has placed new restrictions on the inspectors. Here are some of the particulars.

Iraq repeatedly blocked UNSCOM from inspecting suspect sites. For example, it shut off access to the headquarters of its ruling party and said it will deny access to the party's other offices, even though UN resolutions make no exception for them and UNSCOM has inspected them in the past.

Iraq repeatedly restricted UNSCOM's ability to obtain necessary evidence. For example, Iraq obstructed UNSCOM's effort to photograph bombs related to its chemical weapons program.

It tried to stop an UNSCOM biological weapons team from videotaping a site and photocopying documents and prevented Iraqi personnel from answering UNSCOM's questions.

Prior to the inspection of another site, Iraq actually emptied out the building, removing not just documents but even the furniture and the equipment.

Iraq has failed to turn over virtually all the documents requested by the inspectors. Indeed, we know that Iraq ordered the destruction of weapons-related documents in anticipation of an UNSCOM inspection.

So Iraq has abused its final chance.

As the UNSCOM reports concludes, and again I quote, "Iraq's conduct ensured that no progress was able to be made in the fields of disarmament.

"In light of this experience, and in the absence of full cooperation by Iraq, it must regrettably be recorded again that the commission is not able to conduct the work mandated to it by the Security Council with respect to Iraq's prohibited weapons program."

In short, the inspectors are saying that even if they could stay in Iraq, their work would be a sham.

Saddam's deception has defeated their effectiveness. Instead of the inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors.

This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere. The international community gave Saddam one last chance to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors. Saddam has failed to seize the chance.

And so we had to act and act now.

Let me explain why.

First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.

Second, if Saddam can crippled the weapons inspection system and get away with it, he would conclude that the international community -- led by the United States -- has simply lost its will. He will surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction, and someday -- make no mistake -- he will use it again as he has in the past.

Third, in halting our air strikes in November, I gave Saddam a chance, not a license. If we turn our backs on his defiance, the credibility of U.S. power as a check against Saddam will be destroyed. We will not only have allowed Saddam to shatter the inspection system that controls his weapons of mass destruction program; we also will have fatally undercut the fear of force that stops Saddam from acting to gain domination in the region.

That is why, on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team -- including the vice president, the secretary of defense, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the secretary of state and the national security adviser -- I have ordered a strong, sustained series of air strikes against Iraq.

They are designed to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction, and to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbors.
At the same time, we are delivering a powerful message to Saddam. If you act recklessly, you will pay a heavy price. We acted today because, in the judgment of my military advisers, a swift response would provide the most surprise and the least opportunity for Saddam to prepare.

If we had delayed for even a matter of days from Chairman Butler's report, we would have given Saddam more time to disperse his forces and protect his weapons.

Also, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins this weekend. For us to initiate military action during Ramadan would be profoundly offensive to the Muslim world and, therefore, would damage our relations with Arab countries and the progress we have made in the Middle East.

That is something we wanted very much to avoid without giving Iraq's a month's head start to prepare for potential action against it.

Finally, our allies, including Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain, concurred that now is the time to strike. I hope Saddam will come into cooperation with the inspection system now and comply with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions. But we have to be prepared that he will not, and we must deal with the very real danger he poses.

So we will pursue a long-term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and work toward the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people.

First, we must be prepared to use force again if Saddam takes threatening actions, such as trying to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction or their delivery systems, threatening his neighbors, challenging allied aircraft over Iraq or moving against his own Kurdish citizens.

The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War.
Second, so long as Iraq remains out of compliance, we will work with the international community to maintain and enforce economic sanctions. Sanctions have cost Saddam more than $120 billion -- resources that would have been used to rebuild his military. The sanctions system allows Iraq to sell oil for food, for medicine, for other humanitarian supplies for the Iraqi people.

We have no quarrel with them. But without the sanctions, we would see the oil-for-food program become oil-for-tanks, resulting in a greater threat to Iraq's neighbors and less food for its people.

The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.
The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.
Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion.

We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully.

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people.

And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them.
Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.

Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down.

But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.
In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.

Tonight, the United States is doing just that. May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.
 
95DevilleNS said:
If you know these better reasons please do tell, it would put many people at ease and definately help Bush with his war.

I already stated the reason in my post. He repeatedly violated UN resolutions by firing on US aircraft and violating the no-fly zone. The UN was far too inept to do anything about it. This alone was reason enough to go to war but the majority of Americans didn't find this a valid reason for us to do so. So in order to placate the narrow minded "I only care about my world" people the administration had to use another reason that was far less concrete.

Clinton allowed us to be pushed around by bullies for too long. It took a determined administration to show the world that we were no longer the paper tiger that they had thought us to be.
 
fossten said:
Ah, but in saying that you verify that Bush didn't lie, but rather that the intelligence by which we went to war was faulty. Big difference. If there were better reasons, then he definitely would have said them? Then there weren't, right? So what he told us was what he believed. And what the press believed, and what the Brits believed, and what the Democrats believed, and what Clinton believed, ad infinitum.

Totally contradicts your previous assertions that Bush deliberately lied, not to mention the fact that you've never offered any proof that Bush lied.




Why indeed.

Your cause-and-effect argument doesn't hold water. Your assumption is that the only reason we haven't seen the WMDs used is because they don't exist. There are plenty of possible reasons why they haven't been used, some of which are these:

1. The terrorists don't have them.
2. Syria's government has them.
3. They are being smuggled over to use on our homeland like 9/11.
4. They are being saved/smuggled for use against Israel.
5. They are being saved by the Syrian government for defense purposes.
6. They were so well hidden that no one can find them.

There. That took more time to write than to think of.

I bet if I thought for five minutes more I could think of another six reasons.

For you to assert your paper-thin argument assumes that all of the above (and several other possibilities) are not possible, and you simply can't do that because you just DON'T KNOW. Go back to the drawing board and use another argument, or better yet, how about presenting some facts for a change.

Ah fossten, pulling the Syria card as expected. Really, you should try to keep up with more current sources.

Try this article for starters; Report finds no evidence of WMD transfers to Syria, Jane's Intelligence Review, 1 June 2005.

Let's consider all the possibilities for why we haven't found the WMDs yet.

1) They don't exist.
2) They're too well hidden.

Since you don't seem inclined to believe #1, let's look at #2. Why is it that before the war, the Bush administration said they knew exactly where the WMDs were? Given that the ISG has conducted an exhaustive review, searched the corners of Iraq, interviewed thousands of Iraqis without turning up a link, and discovered that many Iraqis who previously said that there were WMDs were lying to gain permanent asylum- well, reason #2 is just a bum reason.

Heck, I could say, that there are WMDs at fossten's house, and if I don't find them, arrest you anyway and say that you must have hidden them somewhere? Maybe, smuggling them to Vitas' house? The burden of proof to produce evidence is on the accuser, and probability wise, it doesn't look like the US can produce such evidence, making #2 very unlikely.
 
FreeFaller said:
I already stated the reason in my post. He repeatedly violated UN resolutions by firing on US aircraft and violating the no-fly zone. The UN was far too inept to do anything about it. This alone was reason enough to go to war but the majority of Americans didn't find this a valid reason for us to do so. So in order to placate the narrow minded "I only care about my world" people the administration had to use another reason that was far less concrete.

Clinton allowed us to be pushed around by bullies for too long. It took a determined administration to show the world that we were no longer the paper tiger that they had thought us to be.

So, the reason we're going to war is b/c he broke a few UN resolutions (and breaking them did not automatically give carte blanche for war) and because it's time for the US to flex its muscles and practice war on some 3rd world country?
 
fossten said:
Actually, Clinton bombed Iraq on WMD suspicions, and nobody said a word.

Too bad Lincoln didn't make the LS back in the 90s, otherwise you would've heard me complaining about the bombings, and the NATO bombings of Serbia.

So obviously, if you think Clinton erred in bombing Iraq for false WMD reasons, then you must also agree that Bush is also in error.

QED.
 
captainalias said:
I don't see why we need to involve ourselves in SW Asia.

You are demonstrating the exact reason why we have so many problems today. For too long the United States was willing to sit idle while our enemies plotted against us and probed our defenses. You say we should not get involved in southwest Asia when the security of that region is strategically imperative to our national security. I would like to think you are not that shortsighted.


captainalias said:
Let me ask, is it our 'right' to impose 'democracy' on other nations by force, if necessary? (Condi Rice said as much in her talk at Princeton University recently.) Whatever happened to self-determination?

Once again you state that we are imposing our will on a people. Let me tell you, many of these people had no idea what true freedom was. They went about their daily lives in fear. Fearing for their lives and the lives of their families. Those who managed to find some sort of freedom far away from civilization were forced to stay there in order to have some semblence of a free life. We did not go there to conquer...we went there because we knew that a free society would be a far better partner in managing the resources of the world. I am not ignorant to the fact that petrolium is extremely important to the future stability of every country in the world...especially ours. I would hope that you are not as well.

captainalias said:
So you're admitting that this is basically a war to protect our oil interests.

Pretty much answered this one already...although not the way you would have liked.


Remember that our enemies constantly plot against us. We must remain ever vigilant of those who seek to take what we hold dear. To turn your back on your enemy is to invite his blade. We must strategically plan for the future and never forget the past. Far too many people in this country make a habit of forgetting...and turning their backs.
 
captainalias said:
Ah fossten, pulling the Syria card as expected. Really, you should try to keep up with more current sources.

Try this article for starters; Report finds no evidence of WMD transfers to Syria, Jane's Intelligence Review, 1 June 2005.

Let's consider all the possibilities for why we haven't found the WMDs yet.

1) They don't exist.
2) They're too well hidden.

Since you don't seem inclined to believe #1, let's look at #2. Why is it that before the war, the Bush administration said they knew exactly where the WMDs were? Given that the ISG has conducted an exhaustive review, searched the corners of Iraq, interviewed thousands of Iraqis without turning up a link, and discovered that many Iraqis who previously said that there were WMDs were lying to gain permanent asylum- well, reason #2 is just a bum reason.

Heck, I could say, that there are WMDs at fossten's house, and if I don't find them, arrest you anyway and say that you must have hidden them somewhere? Maybe, smuggling them to Vitas' house? The burden of proof to produce evidence is on the accuser, and probability wise, it doesn't look like the US can produce such evidence, making #2 very unlikely.

Your feeble attempts to pigeonhole me and my beliefs fall pitifully short. I have never stated that I don't believe #1. Any attempt on your part to put words in my mouth and then leap to a conclusion will go ignored.

Furthermore, your subsequent assertions don't prove a thing. You haven't personally searched Syria, or any other Arab country for that matter. Neither have we. It's interesting how you like to focus on how we need to find bin Laden, yet we should abandon trying to find the WMDs because they don't exist.

It's clear that the Bush administration was acting on intelligence that was supplied to them. Anybody can see that Bush didn't search Iraq personally. The fact that they weren't where the intelligence said they were STILL DOESN'T PROVE THAT BUSH WAS LYING. Too bad.

In addition to that, it's far less of a stretch, given the history of Saddam's use of chemical weapons on his own people, to believe that the weapons were disposed of or hidden in some way at the last minute, than to believe that this is some diabolical conspiracy fomented by George Bush himself, whom you libs believe doesn't have the intelligence to tell a rhino from a gnat. In asserting that Bush lied you must produce a viable motive for that. And don't give me that BIG OIL crap. I've seen Bush spend enough effort trying to get more of our own energy reserves increased to tell that we don't need Iraq's oil. And even further, if there were any corruption in BIG OIL, it would be the so-called United Nations who took bribes from Saddam's oil-for-food program. I don't hear even one of you liberals mentioning that, yet it's now public knowledge.

Finally, your own quote shows that if anybody was lying, it was the Iraqis who were giving us the intel. It's not lying to rely on someone else's word in good faith. Furthermore, based upon the stinging attacks by the Dems and the media on Bush for not being ready for 9/11, who could blame him for being nervy about a second possible threat? If it had been you, standing in the shadow of 9/11, you would have ignored the intelligence that was coming from all sides?

Get real.
 
captainalias said:
So, the reason we're going to war is b/c he broke a few UN resolutions (and breaking them did not automatically give carte blanche for war) and because it's time for the US to flex its muscles and practice war on some 3rd world country?

OMG!!!

So that guy that broke into your neighbors house and raped his wife and killed his sons does not deserve to be punished? He broke the PEACE TREATY. We had every right to go in there and sieze control. I cannot understand how you continue to think that if we turn a blind eye to misconduct it will all work out in the end.

YES!!! We are the big boy on the block. As the sole superpower and the country to which every other looks for guidance we must set an example. We may not be perfect but we are the best. I truly believe that what we do we do to better the world. You may believe that US foreign policy is evil and full of contempt but I have been on the tip of that policy and I am here to tell you we are the good guys. When will you people realize that sometimes daddy has to spank you for your own good. Or maybe you don't believe in spanking. I forgot...it takes a village to raise a child...or some liberal drivel like that.
 
FreeFaller said:
Once again you state that we are imposing our will on a people. Let me tell you, many of these people had no idea what true freedom was.

You speak like an idealist FreeFaller, and I respect that. However, the US isn't going into Iraq to give Iraqis true freedom; the US is supporting its own selfish interests. Where was true freedom when we supported Saddam in the 80s, when we gave him the chemical weapons to drop on his own people? Where was true freedom when Rumsfeld supported Saddam? Where was true freedom when the US supported Iraq's using WMD against Iran?
 
FreeFaller said:
OMG!!!

So that guy that broke into your neighbors house and raped his wife and killed his sons does not deserve to be punished? He broke the PEACE TREATY. We had every right to go in there and sieze control. I cannot understand how you continue to think that if we turn a blind eye to misconduct it will all work out in the end.

Read the fine print for Resolution 1441 and 678, not just what newsmax tells you. And your analogy doesn't make sense, being in material breach is not the same thing as raping my neighbor's wife.
 
captainalias said:
Too bad Lincoln didn't make the LS back in the 90s, otherwise you would've heard me complaining about the bombings, and the NATO bombings of Serbia.

So obviously, if you think Clinton erred in bombing Iraq for false WMD reasons, then you must also agree that Bush is also in error.

QED.

Interestingly partisan choice of words. You libs previously assert that Bush lied, but Clinton only erred?

If it was an error on both their parts, then you must also differentiate between lying and erring.
 
captainalias said:
Too bad Lincoln didn't make the LS back in the 90s, otherwise you would've heard me complaining about the bombings, and the NATO bombings of Serbia.

So the lawful intervention of the slaughter of countless civilians that threatened to destabilize the entire Baltic region and quite possibly spread further into europe was not a good enough reason. Ever hear of WWI and WWII? How do you think they started?
 
fossten said:
Ah, but in saying that you verify that Bush didn't lie.

No, I think he lied to sell us his war, I have said so. I was quoting someone else's 'he had better reason than what he said' bit. Which I stand by, 'If he had better reasons, why not use the better ones.' the world knows his 'Its not my fault, I was told wrongful information' speech.

fossten said:
Your cause-and-effect argument doesn't hold water. Your assumption is that the only reason we haven't seen the WMDs used is because they don't exist. There are plenty of possible reasons why they haven't been used, some of which are these.

Listen, I don't know where they could be IF they ever did exist which I don't think they did. But I do not have the resources of the United States Goverment, the CIA and the worlds best army at my disposal to do a search. I would think with these resources at Bush's disposal they would be found if they existed. Yes you gave plenty of 'maybe' reasons. But 'maybe' isn’t good enough to go to war over. You assume yourself that the WMD’s do exist because they haven’t been found, yet I am wrong for assuming and you are not?

fossten said:
Go back to the drawing board and use another argument, or better yet, how about presenting some facts for a change.

Want a fact?

1) No (zero) Weapons Of Mass Destruction have been found. Thats a FACT
.
 

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