DunItRight
Dedicated LVC Member
I thought it was Vigilantes that took the law into they're own hands not anarchists?
Cops Writing Cops
- Thread starter 04SCTLS
- Start date
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
This is like a clown show.
How is defending myself taking the law into my own hands?
DunItRight
Dedicated LVC Member
Hey man, don't take offense. When did I ever say you were either.
He is basically saying that since you decide to take action for yourself in certain scenario's you then take the law into your own hands disregarding the actual law set up by government or some crap that wikipedia said making you a Anarchist. Really thats not Anarchy.
But sorry for the misconception, I never accused you of being either.
He is basically saying that since you decide to take action for yourself in certain scenario's you then take the law into your own hands disregarding the actual law set up by government or some crap that wikipedia said making you a Anarchist. Really thats not Anarchy.
But sorry for the misconception, I never accused you of being either.
I support your desire to protect yourself. I think that it's important that American's not take personal security for granted and simply make it the responsibility of some third party to provide it.
With that said, I continue to take issue with your comments about law enforcement, and the wide brush you continue to smear all of law enforcement with.
Because you know of a jerk that became a police officer, you now think it's appropriate to attack the entire profession? And does that idiot you know, regardless of his motivation, still put himself at risk in order to protect the rights of the individuals in the community? More than likely, regardless his initial motivation, he does.
While you continue to point out these anecdotal exceptions to the rule, or when in the past you've sited nonsensical propaganda from fringe lunatics explaining how LEO's "stepped on their cats out of meanness", you refuse to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of good Americans who serve their community and nobly risk their lives to make their communities better places.
Again, you're right to consider the security of your family a personal responsibility.
But there's no reason to attack and dehumanize law enforcement.
Not saying your one of them, but there are some groups of people who do this because of some absurd and obscene "black helicopter" type conspiracy, they are fools. Local guys aren't involved in any such conspiracies....
With that said, I continue to take issue with your comments about law enforcement, and the wide brush you continue to smear all of law enforcement with.
Because you know of a jerk that became a police officer, you now think it's appropriate to attack the entire profession? And does that idiot you know, regardless of his motivation, still put himself at risk in order to protect the rights of the individuals in the community? More than likely, regardless his initial motivation, he does.
While you continue to point out these anecdotal exceptions to the rule, or when in the past you've sited nonsensical propaganda from fringe lunatics explaining how LEO's "stepped on their cats out of meanness", you refuse to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of good Americans who serve their community and nobly risk their lives to make their communities better places.
Again, you're right to consider the security of your family a personal responsibility.
But there's no reason to attack and dehumanize law enforcement.
Not saying your one of them, but there are some groups of people who do this because of some absurd and obscene "black helicopter" type conspiracy, they are fools. Local guys aren't involved in any such conspiracies....
ford nut
Local nut case
Ok I never said fossen is a Anarchist.
If you go back and read the post I asked fossen if he promoted Anarchy.
Defending yourself instead of calling the police is were question is based.
show me one quote fossen were I ever called you a name .
Here is a few nice words you have for me though.
Your such a nice guy.....need a hug ?
If you go back and read the post I asked fossen if he promoted Anarchy.
'
Defending yourself instead of calling the police is were question is based.
show me one quote fossen were I ever called you a name .
Here is a few nice words you have for me though.
Your such a nice guy.....need a hug ?
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Gee, what if an entire police department descends into brutality and civil rights violations? Is that good enough for you?
The great New Orleans gun grab during Hurricane Katrina wasn't just one isolated anecdotal incident. Thousands of law abiding citizens had their homes searched and their guns seized by law enforcement officers who were sworn to protect the rights of these citizens, despite the complete illegality of their actions. The courts, indeed, found that their actions were unlawful and issued a restraining order on any further seizures. In fact, the PR was so bad that Mayor Ray Nagin started denying that these abuses were taking place. But there is plenty of proof. Some people were forcibly removed from their homes, and in one documented case, a man was dragged by four cops off his driveway and brought to the police station, where he was tortured for hours. Then he was taken to the hospital with hematomas in his thighs from the shotgun beanbags they shot him with. It took him months to recover. His crime? He had filed a handwritten lawsuit against the city for seizing people's guns. Yes, he was a lawyer.
Patty Konie had her door kicked in by cops who tackled her in her own home when she showed them her gun. They punched her and dragged her out of her house. She's in her freaking eighties. A real Bonnie and Clyde type, right?
Hey, you know what, if you are in such denial that you can't accept that cops can do and have done brutal things in large numbers when ordered to, why don't you watch the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4
Don't say it can't happen in this country. It already has. Ask yourself this question: Are the cops in New Orleans any worse brand of people than any other law enforcement branch anywhere else in the country? If in a similar situation where they are being ordered to violate people's rights, what would most cops do, take a stand against unlawful orders, or protect their careers? We already have an answer given by the N.O.P.D.
You cannot deny the truth that this happened. I don't care what lousy ad hominem attacks you launch on me, or what kind of smear you try to associate me with, such as your ridiculous black helicopter bull. THIS HAPPENED. Deal with it.
What if a police department did that? What's your point?
Because you have this concern that something might happen, you think that's good reason to simply attack and defame those who are serving right now?
What if the military engaged in a overthrow of the government, motivated by a as yet unknown, though highly charismatic General?? It's happen other times in world history, and we know how much firepower the military has... Should we just start posting harsh criticisms of the men and women in uniform right now based exclusively on your paranoia?
And as you'll go on to point out, the decision to engage in such a policy were made by elected law makers and determined to be unlawful. As a result of the legal challenge, we're much safer from that happening again.
Critical distinction, the decision to do this wasn't because of some desire to oppress the citizens, it was idiotic political leaders who were incapable of performing their jobs or making difficult decisions in a time of crisis.
Why this is justification for you to, again, condemn officers, is beyond me. And it's irrational. Hate politicians. Hate anti-gun zealots.
Furthermore, I've yet to find any specific information on how many weapons were seized. I've heard the isolated "horror stories" about over-zealous take downs, that experience the echo-chamber effect after being repeated over and over and over. The perception then becomes that a single event happened more frequently than it actually had.
Link please. I'm sure you have one, so I make the request not as a gesture of calling your bluff, but because I suspect there are some important parts of this story missing in your summary.
I suspect that you are talking about this guy.. purely a hunch though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1EdC5y8EGU
Wrong. But let me preface this with my recognition that the officers did not handle the situation well at all. I HAVE seen the video. They arrived at her home to evacuate her. Konie maintained that she was on dry land, had ample food supplies, and did not want to leave her animals.
She should have been permitted to stay. Unfortunately, in this victim-culture we live in, no one is responsible for themselves anymore.
She did display the revolver. She didn't "brandish it." And one of the cops lunged at her aggressively taking her down quite hard and seizing the revolver.
Totally unnecessary. Handled very poorly by those on the scene.
I've seen the video.
Don't say what can't happen? A local government in crisis and a negative ideology enacted policy that was illegal... and recognized as illegal by the courts, establishing firm precedent.
So you're response is to simply HATE all police and law. Since the National Guard was brought in to aid in the confiscation, I guess you now must extend that contempt towards the military too. And since they were under the direction of elected officials, expand the hate to the government and bureaucrats.
You have rage, you have no point. It's irrational. It resembles the ravings of lunatics.
I don't need to "smear you" because you incriminate yourself with every time you make this angry, irrational, paranoid posts.
As is so often the case when you make these paranoids arguments, do you have a solution. You are saying, simply, because you know of a single example of police, in a disaster, enforced bad policy- all of them are evil and should not be respect or trusted?
Because you know of one ayehole who became a cop, they are all power hungry freaks?
Do you have any idea how foolish and overly simplistic your rant is?
Again, where does it end? local police are bad. state police are bad. federal law is bad. national guard is bad. And the military has access to weapons that you can't buy over the counter.... that's bad, thus the institutions are evil, those who engage in these noble pursuits are bad by association..
So we should desolve them all? Or maybe continue to continue good people, respectable and trustworthy people, to step up and assume those positions of responsibility?
Additional points, a lot of areas were devastated by hurricanes, only that one spot took such reckless, foolish, and illegal action. And after doing so, it was formally addressed by the courts.
It's not likely to happen again. And YES, I do think law enforcement would avoid enforcing the law if some over zealous leftist local governments attempted to do such a thing again, having the ability to see the consequences of such a knee-jerk reaction in hindsight.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
It's amazing how you can take a lively discussion and turn it into a hate-fest filled with pejoratives. Calabrio, your post is full of nothing but ad hominem excrement. You don't know me, yet you say I am full of hate. Show me where I said I hate cops. *crickets* Show me where I'm raging. You can't. You conjure up all this phlegm and you have zero basis by which to do so. I carefully pointed out a factual basis for my desire to rely on myself and you turned that into me hating cops??? 
If anybody's raging and pounding his keyboard with bloody fingertips, it's you.
It's interesting how you dismissively wave your hand and say that since the courts ruled on the issue, it's all better now. You couldn't be more wrong or ignorant. It's a FACT that Nagin IGNORED the court's ruling at first. You also share no reasoning as to why, considering the 2nd and 4th amendments are PRECEDENTS, this happened in the first place. So why would a district court's ruling SUDDENLY guarantee that it will never happen again? That's irrational, naive, and stupid.
You excuse the cops by saying that, well, they were just doing their jobs and besides, there was a natural disaster. Well, Hitler's soldiers were just doing their jobs too when they rounded up 6 million Jews. Didn't make it right. The ATF and FBI were just doing their jobs at Waco and Ruby Ridge, too, didn't make it right. But you just keep on blindly ignoring the Constitution and supporting all examples of authority, no matter what they do. If that makes you feel safe at night, bully for you.
The facts are the facts. Do I respect the rule of law? Yes I do. Do I hate cops? No I don't. Am I wary of cops? Yes I am. Am I going to wait around for them to come save me if I'm in trouble? No.
You call me paranoid, yet you don't dispute the facts I present. Nor do you explain which part of my post demonstrates paranoia. You call me irrational, yet there isn't one single sentence that you can point to that is irrational. Accusing me dozens of times in the same post of "hating" IS irrational and redundant. This is what you sound like:
"HATE HATE HATE HATE IRRATIONAL PARANOID WACKO HATE HATE HATE"
LOL I mean, who's being irrational here? Who sounds deranged? Sorry that posting facts causes you to fly into a rage. And of course you project your rage onto me. Classic paranoid.
Nobody's going to change your mind. You think I'm a cop hater. Big deal. I really don't care. You want to waste a bunch of time calling me names and smearing me, go ahead. You won't change a thing, nor will you be any closer to the truth. Keep living in your deluded world.
Any time you say "I guess" or "as you'll go on to point out" or "you are saying" you demonstrate that you are nothing but a pathetic, ranting, incompetent, ignorant demagogue sheeple who doesn't understand the difference between someone else's words and your own opinions.
Everybody else, take heed and re-read this thread. You can't say one thing bad about any cop, no matter what the guy did, or Calabrio will come down on you and call you names for hating all cops. What a maroon.
If anybody's raging and pounding his keyboard with bloody fingertips, it's you.It's interesting how you dismissively wave your hand and say that since the courts ruled on the issue, it's all better now. You couldn't be more wrong or ignorant. It's a FACT that Nagin IGNORED the court's ruling at first. You also share no reasoning as to why, considering the 2nd and 4th amendments are PRECEDENTS, this happened in the first place. So why would a district court's ruling SUDDENLY guarantee that it will never happen again? That's irrational, naive, and stupid.
You excuse the cops by saying that, well, they were just doing their jobs and besides, there was a natural disaster. Well, Hitler's soldiers were just doing their jobs too when they rounded up 6 million Jews. Didn't make it right. The ATF and FBI were just doing their jobs at Waco and Ruby Ridge, too, didn't make it right. But you just keep on blindly ignoring the Constitution and supporting all examples of authority, no matter what they do. If that makes you feel safe at night, bully for you.
The facts are the facts. Do I respect the rule of law? Yes I do. Do I hate cops? No I don't. Am I wary of cops? Yes I am. Am I going to wait around for them to come save me if I'm in trouble? No.
You call me paranoid, yet you don't dispute the facts I present. Nor do you explain which part of my post demonstrates paranoia. You call me irrational, yet there isn't one single sentence that you can point to that is irrational. Accusing me dozens of times in the same post of "hating" IS irrational and redundant. This is what you sound like:
"HATE HATE HATE HATE IRRATIONAL PARANOID WACKO HATE HATE HATE"
LOL I mean, who's being irrational here? Who sounds deranged? Sorry that posting facts causes you to fly into a rage. And of course you project your rage onto me. Classic paranoid.
Nobody's going to change your mind. You think I'm a cop hater. Big deal. I really don't care. You want to waste a bunch of time calling me names and smearing me, go ahead. You won't change a thing, nor will you be any closer to the truth. Keep living in your deluded world.
Any time you say "I guess" or "as you'll go on to point out" or "you are saying" you demonstrate that you are nothing but a pathetic, ranting, incompetent, ignorant demagogue sheeple who doesn't understand the difference between someone else's words and your own opinions.
Everybody else, take heed and re-read this thread. You can't say one thing bad about any cop, no matter what the guy did, or Calabrio will come down on you and call you names for hating all cops. What a maroon.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Calabrio,
Here's a partial list of your logical flaws and falsehoods:
Harsh criticisms of men and women in the military or in L.E. - I didn't do that, you made it up.
Attack and defame - I didn't do that, you made it up. Can't show me where I attacked anybody.
Paranoia - you have zero basis for using this word, mainly because everything I mentioned DID HAPPEN.
Desire to oppress the citizens - I didn't say that, you did.
Condemn officers - I didn't do that, you said that. Show me where I did that. Specifically.
You debunk the facts by saying, "I heard..." Real convincing. Not.
HATE - your word, not mine.
Contempt - your word, not mine. No evidence I have contempt for anybody. Except maybe for you.
Hate the government and bureaucrats - Didn't say that, you did.
And you have the audacity to call my post a foolish and overly simplistic rant? Now that's funny.
You need anger management. And a lesson in truthtelling.
Here's a partial list of your logical flaws and falsehoods:
Harsh criticisms of men and women in the military or in L.E. - I didn't do that, you made it up.
Attack and defame - I didn't do that, you made it up. Can't show me where I attacked anybody.
Paranoia - you have zero basis for using this word, mainly because everything I mentioned DID HAPPEN.
Desire to oppress the citizens - I didn't say that, you did.
Condemn officers - I didn't do that, you said that. Show me where I did that. Specifically.
You debunk the facts by saying, "I heard..." Real convincing. Not.
HATE - your word, not mine.
Contempt - your word, not mine. No evidence I have contempt for anybody. Except maybe for you.
Hate the government and bureaucrats - Didn't say that, you did.
And you have the audacity to call my post a foolish and overly simplistic rant? Now that's funny.
You need anger management. And a lesson in truthtelling.
You squirm seemingly convinced that your not expected to be held accountable for what you say or support what ever it is you mean.
You spew that paranoia around, seemingly convinced your in a vacuum, yet when you're challenged, you revert to victim status and deflection...
If you think I've misrepresented anything, then try clarifying your point. I'm confident I understand both your point, but if this is simply an issue of my misunderstanding what you're saying or your inability to express yourself, then clarify.
Because as is too often the point- you start off on sound logical footing and then fly off the handle into a world of dark fantasy. I'm not going to go through, line by line, demonstrating the hostility in your posts.
If you ever get the nerve or ability to directly respond to my challenges, I look forward to it. This nonsense where you simply deflect and avoid them is tiresome and boring.
You continually speak poorly of law enforcement. This thread isn't an isolated incident. Then you provide a few poorly reported anecdotal incidents to indite a huge population of men and women serving in an extremely noble career.
I'm "wary" of the power of the government.
But wary of the police? Those are the sworn, civilian men and women who are dedicated to protecting the community. That's why they pursue that line of work. That's why they risk their lives to make their communities better places.
But you're "wary" of those INDIVIDUALS because you can find isolated examples where you don't agree with how they performed? Yes, isolated. In a country with several hundred thousand law enforcement officers, the mere fact that you can find a handful of stories over the past 30 years indicates these are isolated problems.
You have made attacks on police, you did generalize them because you knew "a" guy who happened to be a power hungry jerk before applying for the job. He's the exception, not the rule. Most cops don't want to work with a guy like that either.
Additionally, you don't post "facts." That was even demonstrated in your last post where you grossly misrepresented the facts surrounding the Patricia Konie story. The true story was damning enough, but you reported an embellished version of the story.
As is often the case with these facts, as I have demonstrated in the past. Knowingly omitting the truth can be just as bad as lying. I'm not saying YOU are lying, but you do trust sources sometimes that are highly suspect. The stories repeated are often echoed through out the internet based on the subjective, and self-interested, versions of the story provided by the "victims." And usually, those versions omit critical pieces of information that provide crucial context.
....and I've been very careful to NOT call you names. I've called your theories paranoid, but I've refrained from actually inditing you of anything. That is a courtesy you're clearly not interested in extending to me, despite your repeated cries implying victim hood.
And to save time, I'll just repost this thread where you demonstrated your critically flawed logic on this subject.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=33700
You spew that paranoia around, seemingly convinced your in a vacuum, yet when you're challenged, you revert to victim status and deflection...
If you think I've misrepresented anything, then try clarifying your point. I'm confident I understand both your point, but if this is simply an issue of my misunderstanding what you're saying or your inability to express yourself, then clarify.
Because as is too often the point- you start off on sound logical footing and then fly off the handle into a world of dark fantasy. I'm not going to go through, line by line, demonstrating the hostility in your posts.
If you ever get the nerve or ability to directly respond to my challenges, I look forward to it. This nonsense where you simply deflect and avoid them is tiresome and boring.
You continually speak poorly of law enforcement. This thread isn't an isolated incident. Then you provide a few poorly reported anecdotal incidents to indite a huge population of men and women serving in an extremely noble career.
O.k
I'm "wary" of the power of the government.
But wary of the police? Those are the sworn, civilian men and women who are dedicated to protecting the community. That's why they pursue that line of work. That's why they risk their lives to make their communities better places.
But you're "wary" of those INDIVIDUALS because you can find isolated examples where you don't agree with how they performed? Yes, isolated. In a country with several hundred thousand law enforcement officers, the mere fact that you can find a handful of stories over the past 30 years indicates these are isolated problems.
You have made attacks on police, you did generalize them because you knew "a" guy who happened to be a power hungry jerk before applying for the job. He's the exception, not the rule. Most cops don't want to work with a guy like that either.
Additionally, you don't post "facts." That was even demonstrated in your last post where you grossly misrepresented the facts surrounding the Patricia Konie story. The true story was damning enough, but you reported an embellished version of the story.
As is often the case with these facts, as I have demonstrated in the past. Knowingly omitting the truth can be just as bad as lying. I'm not saying YOU are lying, but you do trust sources sometimes that are highly suspect. The stories repeated are often echoed through out the internet based on the subjective, and self-interested, versions of the story provided by the "victims." And usually, those versions omit critical pieces of information that provide crucial context.
....and I've been very careful to NOT call you names. I've called your theories paranoid, but I've refrained from actually inditing you of anything. That is a courtesy you're clearly not interested in extending to me, despite your repeated cries implying victim hood.
And to save time, I'll just repost this thread where you demonstrated your critically flawed logic on this subject.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=33700
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Dude. Let it go. Your blood pressure is too high, as is your hard-on for me. You might have a heart attack. If you're okay with being an ignorant a-hole, then that's all that matters. Live and let live.
Try using a tranquilizer tonight. We don't want to have to call the EMTs.
Try using a tranquilizer tonight. We don't want to have to call the EMTs.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
[Back on topic now? Good.]
Gun owner receives apology from police chief
Chief's letter, more training follow officer's confusion, threat of arrest
By Matt Lakin
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/22/gun-owner-receives-apology/
Saturday, September 22, 2007
Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didn’t.
“When I told him that I hadn’t done anything, he said he’d find a reason to put me in jail,” said Putnam, 24, who works with guns every day as vice president of Coal Creek Armory in West Knoxville.
“It’s not that I have a problem with police officers. I deal with police officers nationwide from Arizona to Maine every day. But I lost my confidence in a legal right that I knew I had.”
Knoxville police officers will get a refresher course on the state’s gun permit laws after an officer who didn’t know the law stopped, frisked and threatened to arrest Putnam for legally carrying a gun inside a Wal-Mart this summer.
Officer Glenn Todd Greene’s actions June 21 at the store on Walbrook Drive in West Knoxville earned him a written reprimand and remedial training for rudeness and not knowing the law, Internal Affairs records show. He’s worked for the Knoxville Police Department for about seven years.
Putnam got a written apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
“The officer was wrong I want to personally apologize to you for any embarrassment or inconvenience you may have suffered as a result of this incident,” the chief wrote.
“The Knoxville Police Department takes pride in the training offered to its officers, and the training provided far exceeds state requirements. Unfortunately, officers aren’t perfect, and sometimes mistakes are made. As you can see from the remedial measures taken, we want to learn from our mistakes so they won’t be repeated in the future.”
The trouble started when Putnam and his girlfriend, Samantha Williams, stopped at the store to buy groceries around 10 p.m. Putnam, who holds a gun permit, carried his Colt handgun inside with him, holstered on his right hip.
“It’s like a seat belt or a fire extinguisher,” he said. “It goes everywhere with me. It was warm that night, so I left my jacket in the car.”
State law allows gun permit holders to carry their guns openly or concealed. Putnam said he usually tucks his shirt over the gun but forgot to that night.
As they walked out, Greene, who’d gone to the store to investigate a shoplifting call, told Putnam to stop. Greene asked for Putnam’s identification, grabbed his arm when he reached for his wallet and then asked why he carried a gun in public, records show.
Putnam ended up against a concrete wall being frisked as Greene took his gun.
“It’s called a concealed carry permit. State law says you carry it concealed, not in plain view (with the) hammer back,” Greene said. “I’ve been doing this for 12 years. I can put you in jail for something. It’s called inducing a panic.”
Greene ultimately let Putnam go after talking with another officer but told him to pull his shirt over the gun. He told Internal Affairs investigators he thought Tennessee and Ohio, where he previously served as a police officer, prohibited open carrying. Neither state does.
“There’s an issue there where there could be panic,” he said in a recorded statement. “I’m thinking the law is a concealed law. I’m not going to deal with a guy that has a loaded gun until I secure a weapon.”
Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either.
Investigators reviewed video from Greene’s in-car camera and found him in violation of KPD policy. They sustained part of Putnam’s complaint but ruled Greene hadn’t used excessive force in putting him against the wall.
Putnam questions that decision.
“On the one hand, I’m glad they didn’t ignore it,” he said. “On the other, I don’t feel it was a wholly appropriate response to everything the officer threatened to do.”
The department trains all recruits on the state’s gun permit laws, said KPD Lt. Jeff Stiles, who oversees training for the department. All officers will get another dose of training during the next annual session, he said.
“We don’t get that many questions about it over here,” Stiles said. “But we cover that aspect. We go straight to the experts to teach the law. We don’t guess, and we don’t speculate.”
Matt Lakin may be reached at 865-342-6306.
Gun owner receives apology from police chief
Chief's letter, more training follow officer's confusion, threat of arrest
By Matt Lakin
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/sep/22/gun-owner-receives-apology/
Saturday, September 22, 2007
Trevor Putnam knew the gun laws. The officer who stopped him didn’t.
“When I told him that I hadn’t done anything, he said he’d find a reason to put me in jail,” said Putnam, 24, who works with guns every day as vice president of Coal Creek Armory in West Knoxville.
“It’s not that I have a problem with police officers. I deal with police officers nationwide from Arizona to Maine every day. But I lost my confidence in a legal right that I knew I had.”
Knoxville police officers will get a refresher course on the state’s gun permit laws after an officer who didn’t know the law stopped, frisked and threatened to arrest Putnam for legally carrying a gun inside a Wal-Mart this summer.
Officer Glenn Todd Greene’s actions June 21 at the store on Walbrook Drive in West Knoxville earned him a written reprimand and remedial training for rudeness and not knowing the law, Internal Affairs records show. He’s worked for the Knoxville Police Department for about seven years.
Putnam got a written apology from Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV.
“The officer was wrong I want to personally apologize to you for any embarrassment or inconvenience you may have suffered as a result of this incident,” the chief wrote.
“The Knoxville Police Department takes pride in the training offered to its officers, and the training provided far exceeds state requirements. Unfortunately, officers aren’t perfect, and sometimes mistakes are made. As you can see from the remedial measures taken, we want to learn from our mistakes so they won’t be repeated in the future.”
The trouble started when Putnam and his girlfriend, Samantha Williams, stopped at the store to buy groceries around 10 p.m. Putnam, who holds a gun permit, carried his Colt handgun inside with him, holstered on his right hip.
“It’s like a seat belt or a fire extinguisher,” he said. “It goes everywhere with me. It was warm that night, so I left my jacket in the car.”
State law allows gun permit holders to carry their guns openly or concealed. Putnam said he usually tucks his shirt over the gun but forgot to that night.
As they walked out, Greene, who’d gone to the store to investigate a shoplifting call, told Putnam to stop. Greene asked for Putnam’s identification, grabbed his arm when he reached for his wallet and then asked why he carried a gun in public, records show.
Putnam ended up against a concrete wall being frisked as Greene took his gun.
“It’s called a concealed carry permit. State law says you carry it concealed, not in plain view (with the) hammer back,” Greene said. “I’ve been doing this for 12 years. I can put you in jail for something. It’s called inducing a panic.”
Greene ultimately let Putnam go after talking with another officer but told him to pull his shirt over the gun. He told Internal Affairs investigators he thought Tennessee and Ohio, where he previously served as a police officer, prohibited open carrying. Neither state does.
“There’s an issue there where there could be panic,” he said in a recorded statement. “I’m thinking the law is a concealed law. I’m not going to deal with a guy that has a loaded gun until I secure a weapon.”
Greene said he asked other officers about the law and that they didn’t know, either.
Investigators reviewed video from Greene’s in-car camera and found him in violation of KPD policy. They sustained part of Putnam’s complaint but ruled Greene hadn’t used excessive force in putting him against the wall.
Putnam questions that decision.
“On the one hand, I’m glad they didn’t ignore it,” he said. “On the other, I don’t feel it was a wholly appropriate response to everything the officer threatened to do.”
The department trains all recruits on the state’s gun permit laws, said KPD Lt. Jeff Stiles, who oversees training for the department. All officers will get another dose of training during the next annual session, he said.
“We don’t get that many questions about it over here,” Stiles said. “But we cover that aspect. We go straight to the experts to teach the law. We don’t guess, and we don’t speculate.”
Matt Lakin may be reached at 865-342-6306.
DunItRight
Dedicated LVC Member
I thought the topic was that website?