Choice

So now you are misrepresenting my actions; taking them out of context...but you are discussing things in good faith? :rolleyes:
I would like a real discussion with you shag - one where you support your source, in your own words. Do you understand and agree with the points in your source that cite Olasky? Do you think they are sound and are relevant to the issue at hand? Can you support them?

The classic thing is where Olasky is talking about abortions and then slides into infanticide. He wants you to equate the two as being equal, because he has a lot of cases that he can cite regarding infanticide. However, they are two different issues and presenting the issue of infanticide within this argument is just a red herring.
 
I guess all those years of parochial school are starting to fail me now... Bibles - my favorite is my white leather bound King James version given to me by my Grandparents when I was confirmed.... However it is the old school standby that gets the most use... complete with sticky notes, highlighter pen marks and tons of notes in the margins...
I take your unresponsive answer to mean that you acknowledge that I am correct - thus, using your logic, I declare victory. :rolleyes:
 
And once again foss - all I am asking is for verse that doesn't have to be interpreted to give us a definitive answer. You still are resorting to interpretation and 'indication'. You are using verse out of context, and are resorting to EXPLAINING the Bible in your viewpoint. I can explain the Bible too... Here, however I ask to set aside explanation. If you have to resort to explanation and interpretation, then the 'other side' can as well. Then you are in a quagmire of 'I think it means this' and 'no it means this'.

I would also like to see the concrete passage in the Constitution that doesn't allow a woman the right to an abortion. What is the common practice when there isn't a concrete 'law' that prohibits?
Easy for you to avoid having to explain the Bible by dismissing the need for explanation. Clever, but it proves you have no Biblical wisdom. In other words, you FAIL. Your absolute BEST argument is that neither of our opinions are better than the other, but rather cancel each other out. That is logically flawed as well, as it dismisses the possibility of right and wrong.

It's funny how you try to dismiss explanation when it suits you, but then in the same thread you demand explanation from Shag:

You aren't very good at debate shag, if you can't articulate in 'your own words' what all that cut and paste source that you are so fond of using really means, and then defend it, in your own words.
Emphasis YOURS! Hoist by your OWN PETARD, foxpaws, tsk tsk...

You're a pathetic hypocrite, Fox. You can't even keep up with all your lies.

You're also using the 'answer by question' fallacy. You're full of FAIL today.

Show me one verse I used out of context. If you don't answer within 5 minutes I will, much like you, assume you have no such example, and will claim victory. :rolleyes:
 
Your quote wears thin shag- because obviously you have no answer to my tearing apart olaksy... honestly If you do have a response to that, please post it - otherwise I am going to assume that I don't even need to respond to the second source, because I will get the same lack of informed discussion as I am getting with the Olasky debate.

1. Topic comes up
2. Discussion begins
3. Foxpaws shows up and draws false comparison or throws up straw men/red herrings or a bunch of nonsense
4. Conservs call her out for her dishonesty
5. Foxpaws happily plays victim and doggedly continues to defend, deflect, and change the subject
6. Everyone tires of her ad nauseum arguments and leaves the thread
7. Foxpaws claims victory
 
Easy for you to avoid having to explain the Bible by dismissing the need for explanation. Clever, but it proves you have no Biblical wisdom. In other words, you FAIL. Your absolute BEST argument is that neither of our opinions are better than the other, but rather cancel each other out. That is logically flawed as well, as it dismisses the possibility of right and wrong.

It's funny how you try to dismiss explanation when it suits you, but then in the same thread you demand explanation from Shag:


Emphasis YOURS! Hoist by your OWN PETARD, foxpaws, tsk tsk...

You're a pathetic hypocrite, Fox. You can't even keep up with all your lies.

You're also using the 'answer by question' fallacy. You're full of FAIL today.

Show me one verse I used out of context. If you don't answer within 5 minutes I will, much like you, assume you have no such example, and will claim victory. :rolleyes:
I am using my own words. You are using your own interpretation of the Bible to prove your point. I was using my interpretation to show how the Bible indicates where life begins. However, as I stated, in each case we have to use interpretation to find answers to this problem. There is no clear cut answer in the Bible, is there Foss?

And in your case you are using your religious edicts to dictate to others. Where life begins is different in many religions - Hindu, Judaism, Navajo. I will not let my religious beliefs override anyone else. I am against abortion at all stages, but that is my religious belief. My religious beliefs are not superior or subordinate to anyone else's. Nor would I expect their religious beliefs to trump mine...

And just like in the constitution, there is no clear cut answer either way-pro or anti abortion. In the case where there is no law, what happens foss...

And I am at work - I don't have my bible with me...
 
so, back from lunch and a quick review - and this is only because I know of this one from a similar discussion in the past... I don't have all of those other verses memorized... or at my beck and call because I have used them so much in discussion...

Out of context...

Jeremiah 1:4-8
If you read the entire chapter, it's clear that God is talking specifically to Jeremiah, not to the entire human race, as he is telling him that he was born to be a prophet. He knew Jeremiah in the womb - not all of us. Jeremiah was special, he was born to be a prophet.

If you are going with 'I knew you in the womb' part...

I believe Matthew 19 is the suffer the children sermon... I am not sure what that has to do with when life starts, or how it would be anti abortion.

Matthew 7 is Judge not that ye be judged... but what 12 is? should do to you - the law of the prophets? Once again not sure of the connection here.

Proverbs 6 I believe was just for me... right?
 
I am using my own words. You are using your own interpretation of the Bible to prove your point. I was using my interpretation to show how the Bible indicates where life begins. However, as I stated, in each case we have to use interpretation to find answers to this problem. There is no clear cut answer in the Bible, is there Foss?
Tsk tsk, fox, there you go again, skimming posts. It's instructive how wasteful you are with your words. I point out a glaring hypocrisy in your statements, and you blithely (stupidly?) go on as if nothing happened. You tell Shag he's not good at debating because he won't explain himself, but then you claim you don't have to explain yourself.

Absolutely laughable.

Until you account for your hypocrisy, there's no need to discuss anything further. But you've deliberately derailed the thread, as usual. See my list below.

You still have several threads that you haven't responded to, because you disappear for days and then come back and act like it never happened. Not that we miss you, but when you come back there are standards of debate that you fail to adhere to on a daily basis. Even in this thread, I've made several points which you've ignored. Until you answer them, you're not entitled to change the subject.

Once again:

1. Topic comes up
2. Discussion begins
3. Foxpaws shows up and draws false comparison or throws up straw men/red herrings or a bunch of nonsense
4. Conservs call her out for her dishonesty
5. Foxpaws happily plays victim and doggedly continues to defend, deflect, and change the subject
6. Everyone tires of her ad nauseum arguments and leaves the thread
7. Foxpaws claims victory

We're about to step 6 now, although you've already gotten to 7 several times in this thread.
 
1. Topic comes up
2. Discussion begins
3. Foxpaws shows up and draws false comparison or throws up straw men/red herrings or a bunch of nonsense
4. Conservs call her out for her dishonesty
5. Foxpaws happily plays victim and doggedly continues to defend, deflect, and change the subject
6. Everyone tires of her ad nauseum arguments and leaves the thread
7. Foxpaws claims victory

8. The tension between Fox and Foss becomes so great that they decide to run away together to marry and we all attend. yayyy
 
"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull S H I T !!!"
Now everybody take that to mean the other side of the argument.:) :) :)
KS
 
Hi guys, just killing some time and saw this thread. This may have already been addressed, but I couldn't find it? Please forgive if it has. I just wanted to correct something that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

The bible doesn't really ever address abortion directly-however it does state that the penalty for causing a miscarriage was a monetary fine - not the penalty of 'eye for an eye'.

This is referring to a passage in Exodus chapter 21. Here it is in the New Living Translation which more fully explains versus other translations:

"22 Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. 23 But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life, 24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, "

King James uses the term "mischief" for "injury." Clearly this is talking about an injury to the unborn child and not the mother, since injuring normal people is covered throughout the Bible. This is God showing us, in case there were any doubts, that an unborn child is a person.

And please, no comments like "so you're condoning killing abortionists." I live under the grace of the Lord Jesus who freely forgives all who repent and believe in Him. The issue of abortion is appropriately addressed through legal and legislative avenues. I just wanted to clarify.
 
Hey Kbob! How you been doing!

You make a good point.

Actually, the KJV does it justice:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life
 
You still have several threads that you haven't responded to, because you disappear for days and then come back and act like it never happened. Not that we miss you, but when you come back there are standards of debate that you fail to adhere to on a daily basis. Even in this thread, I've made several points which you've ignored. Until you answer them, you're not entitled to change the subject.
Well, needless to say - I work Foss, my time is not always my own. And, responding to threads where you call basically label me moronic and stupid - I don't need to answer those - why bother?

There are also the threads where you talk about how I look - once again, why should I bother answering those threads - it really isn't worth my time.

Here - you have misrepresented Exodus 21:22-25

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

This is a very illuminating passage, and really, the only passage in the Bible that actually refers to the loss of a fetus caused by an 'outside source', and the penalties that are involved. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the husband taking the men to court for a settlement (ah, women as chattel, love the old testament...). But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Not as you claim foss, that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. In context it is easy to see this isn't true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. It is easy to see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence - it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.
 
Well, needless to say - I work Foss, my time is not always my own. And, responding to threads where you call basically label me moronic and stupid - I don't need to answer those - why bother?
Ah, step 5, you become the victim.

Boo-freaking-hoo.

And yet you bother anyway.

Yawn. Step 6 - This topic is done, and you have nothing good to say anyway. Go back to 'work,' we're having a fine time without you. :rolleyes:

Here, I'll leave you some room to claim victory:



















.
 
Ah, step 5, you become the victim.

Boo-freaking-hoo.

And yet you bother anyway.

Yawn. Step 6 - This topic is done, and you have nothing good to say anyway. Go back to 'work,' we're having a fine time without you. :rolleyes:

Here, I'll leave you some room to claim victory:

Foss, on this thread you have yet to call me names, or talk about how I look. I am happy to discuss things civilly... when those things come into play, I don't need to discuss anything else on that particular thread.

And I noticed you haven't answered back to the fact that you misrepresented the Exodus quote...

Heck, you are the one that always wonders where I am, why have I just stopped answering, questions where does foxpaws weigh in on an issue...

I think you miss me when I am out of town on business...:p
 
I am happy to discuss things civilly...

It is uncivil to misrepresent the arguments and/or actions of those you are engaging.

It is uncivil to mislead.

It is uncivil to ignore arguments of those you are engaging.

It is uncivil to spread false stereotypes about those you are engaging.
 
It is uncivil to misrepresent the arguments and/or actions of those you are engaging.

It is uncivil to mislead.

It is uncivil to ignore arguments of those you are engaging.

It is uncivil to spread false stereotypes about those you are engaging.

So, just on this thread shag...

You mislead by posting articles that you don't really think about... such as the tidbit you posted citing Olasky from the Army of God website... Or maybe you really did read it and figured I wouldn't know about the holes in Olasky's arguments, which is classic misleading.

If you wanted me to defend Mohr you should have asked - instead you countered with a poorly researched bit of garbage. Your choice on counter - I proceeded to respond your Army of God article... I know points of debate - you obviously are missing something.

You ignore arguments - I delved into Olasky here, very clearly explaining he was who I was going to go after first, before attacking into the second part of your article, and you have never, ever been able to counter one of the points that I brought up.

So, want me to go on about stereotyping as well?
 
So, just on this thread shag...

You mislead by posting articles that you don't really think about... such as the tidbit you posted citing Olasky from the Army of God website... Or maybe you really did read it and figured I wouldn't know about the holes in Olasky's arguments, which is classic misleading.

If you wanted me to defend Mohr you should have asked - instead you countered with a poorly researched bit of garbage. Your choice on counter - I proceeded to respond your Army of God article... I know points of debate - you obviously are missing something.

You ignore arguments - I delved into Olasky here, very clearly explaining he was who I was going to go after first, before attacking into the second part of your article, and you have never, ever been able to counter one of the points that I brought up.

Funny thing is, in making those "points", you simply confirmed what I intimated about you in post #91.

You stay classy... ;)
 
And I noticed you haven't answered back to the fact that you misrepresented the Exodus quote...
I noticed that you haven't answered back on the hypocrisy of your two-faced approach to explaining positions. You're still demanding explanations while denying similar demands.

Your lack of response compels me to claim victory.

For that matter, there are a dozen points that you failed to counter. You're a big clump of FAIL today. And don't try playing the victim card. Nobody's calling you names.
 
Here - you have misrepresented Exodus 21:22-25

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

This is a very illuminating passage, and really, the only passage in the Bible that actually refers to the loss of a fetus caused by an 'outside source', and the penalties that are involved. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the husband taking the men to court for a settlement (ah, women as chattel, love the old testament...). But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Not as you claim foss, that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. In context it is easy to see this isn't true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. It is easy to see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence - it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.
Tsk tsk, fox, you lack basic knowledge of the context of the Bible. If you go on to read the rest of Exodus 21, you can clearly see that the 'eye for an eye...' was a segue into what would later become Levitican law. Since you myopically examine those few verses sans context, you cannot be expected to understand what they mean.

Your little argument about the baby not having teeth or being burned is just sophistry. In fact, I actually laughed out loud when I read it, because it's the kind of argument a child would make. It's equally hilarious how you try to argue the meaning of a passage whilst simultaneously mocking it (chattel). Double minded, indeed.

Combining the Hebrew with the context, clearly the passage refers to the baby being born prematurely, but not being born dead. The fine is levied for premature birth, but if 'any mischief follow,' i.e. the baby or the mother dies, then you pay life for life. Nowhere in the text or the Hebrew does the Scripture imply that the baby dies during childbirth.

The NASB's use of the word 'miscarriage' is a mistranslation and is typical of the errors found throughout this flawed version.

Here's a quote for you to consider:

A word’s meaning in any language is determined in two steps. We learn a word’s range of meaning--its possible definitions--inductively by examining its general usage. We learn its specific meaning within that range by the immediate context.

The relevant phrase in the passage, “...she has a miscarriage...,” reads w˚yase û ye ladêhâ in the Hebrew. It’s a combination of a Hebrew noun--yeled--and a verb--yasa--and literally means “the child comes forth.” The NASB makes note of this literal rendering in the margin.

The Hebrew noun translated “child” in this passage is yeled[4] (yeladim in the plural), and means “child, son, boy, or youth.”[5] It comes from the primary root word yalad,[6] meaning “to bear, bring forth, or beget.” In the NASB yalad is translated “childbirth” 10 times, some form of “gave birth” over 50 times, and either “bore,” “born,” or “borne” 180 times.

The verb yasa[7] is a primary, primitive root that means “to go or come out.” It is used over a thousand times in the Hebrew Scriptures and has been translated 165 different ways in the NASB--escape, exported, go forth, proceed, take out, to name a few. This gives us a rich source for exegetical comparison. It’s translated with some form of “coming out” (e.g., “comes out,” “came out,” etc.) 103 times, and some form of “going” 445 times.

What’s most interesting is to see how frequently yasa refers to the emergence of a living thing:

Genesis 1:24 “Then God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind’; and it was so.”
Genesis 8:17 [to Noah] “Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth....”

Genesis 15:4 “This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body....”

Genesis 25:25-26 “Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau. And afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau’s heel, so his name was called Jacob.”

1 Kings 8:19 “Nevertheless you shall not build the house, but your son who shall be born to you, he shall build the house for My name.”

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

2 Kings 20:18 “And some of your sons who shall issue from you, whom you shall beget, shall be taken away; and they shall become officials in the palace of the king of Babylon.”

As you can see, it’s common for yasa to describe the “coming forth” of something living, frequently a child. There is only one time yasa is clearly used for a dead child. Numbers 12:12 says, “Oh, do not let her be like one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes from his mother’s womb!”

Note here, that we don’t infer the child’s death from the word yasa, but from explicit statements in the context. This is a still-birth, not a miscarriage. The child is dead before the birth (“whose flesh is half eaten away”), and doesn’t die as a result of the untimely delivery, as in a miscarriage.

Yasa is used 1,061 times in the Hebrew Bible. It is never translated “miscarriage” in any other case. Why should the Exodus passage be any different?

Clues from the Context

This inductive analysis shows us something important: Nothing about the word yasa implies the death of the child. The context may give us this information, as in Numbers 12:12, but the word itself does not.

This leads us to our next question: What in the context justifies our assumption that the child that “comes forth” is dead? The answer is, nothing does. There is no indication anywhere in the verse that a fine is assessed for a miscarriage and a more severe penalty is assessed for harming the mother.

This becomes immediately clear when the Hebrew words are translated in their normal, conventional way (the word “further” in the NASB is not in the original):

“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that the child comes forth, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life....”
The text seems to require a fine for the premature birth, but injury to either of the parties involved incurs a more severe punishment.[8] Millard Erickson notes that “there is no specification as to who must be harmed for the lex talionis [life for life] to come into effect. Whether the mother or the child, the principle applies.”[9]

Gleason Archer, Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, concludes:

“There is no ambiguity here, whatever. What is required is that if there should be an injury either to the mother or to her children, the injury shall be avenged by a like injury to the assailant. If it involves the life (nepes) of the premature baby, then the assailant shall pay for it with his life. There is no second-class status attached to the fetus under this rule; he is avenged just as if he were a normally delivered child or an older person: life for life. Or if the injury is less, but not serious enough to involve inflicting a like injury on the offender, then he may offer compensation in monetary damages...”[10]

***

When someone raises this issue with you, ask these three questions.
First, why presume the child is dead? Though the English word “miscarriage” entails this notion, nothing in the Hebrew wording suggests it. Yasa doesn’t mean miscarriage; it means “to come forth.” The word itself never suggests death.[13] In fact, the word generally implies the opposite: live birth. If it’s never translated elsewhere as miscarriage, why translate it that way here?

Second, what in the context itself implies the death of the child? There’s nothing that does, nothing at all. The fine does not necessarily mean the child is dead, and even if it did this wouldn’t indicate that the child wasn’t fully human (as in the case of the slave in v. 32).

Third, ancient Hebrew had a specific word for miscarriage. It was used in other passages. Why not here? Because Moses didn’t mean miscarriage. When his words are simply taken at face value, there is no confusion at all. The verse is clear and straight-forward. Everything falls into place.

Regardless of the translation, it’s clear that killing the child--and the text does refer to the unborn as a child--is a criminal act. There is no justification for abortion-on-demand from the Torah. Instead, we have a reasonable--even powerful--argument that God views the unborn as valuable as any other human being.

Also, see this article by John Piper for further confirmation.
 
So, fox, are you in favor of capital punishment? The rest of Exodus 21 advocates it.

Also, are you against homosexuality now? Leviticus clearly prohibits it.

You can't cherrypick the Bible.
 
Hey, since all we are doing is trading articles... here is a good one...

I used parts of it for my last post... and yes, it is obvious to anyone other than zealots who read the bible that the miscarriage caused by the men fighting is penalized with a monetary fine handed down by judges - it is not 'murder'.

Do I believe in capital punishment - yes.

Do you believe in sending bears to kill and maul children because they tease someone who is bald foss? That is in the bible as well... you can't cherry pick either. II Kings 2:23-25


Why Abortion is Biblical
How anti-abortion activists misrepresent the biblical record

By Brian Elroy McKinley

One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the "Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions.

With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right?

Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.

This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms:

"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them."

Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed.

But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical.

Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being contradicted by other verses. Similarly, some verses that make perfect sense while standing alone take on a different feel when seen in the greater context in which they were written. And we can do some rather bizarre things to the Scriptures when we take disparate verses from the same context and use them as stand-alone doctrinal statements. Some prime examples of this come from the same book of the Bible as our last quote. Consider these verses that claim that God has abandoned us:

"Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?"

Psalm 10:1

"How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?"

Psalm 13:1

"O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us.

Psalm 60:1

Not only can we use out-of-context verses to support that God doesn't care for us anymore, we can even use them to show how we can ask God to do horrible and vile things to people we consider our enemies. In this example, King David even wanted God to cause harm to the innocent children of his enemy:

"Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children."

Psalm 109:8-12

Are we indeed to interpret that God, speaking through David in these Psalms, is saying we have been abandoned by God and that when wronged we can ask God to cause our enemies to die and cause our enemies' children to wander hungry and homeless? Indeed, it would seem the case.

But rather than interpret that God is with us as a fetus, but forgets us as adults, and yet will allow us to plead for the death of our enemies, we need to look at the greater context in which all these verses are found: songs.

Called Psalms, these are the songs of King David, a man of great faith who was also greatly tormented. He was a man of passions. He loved God, lusted for another man's wife, and murdered him to get her. He marveled at nature and at his own existence. All his great swings in emotion are recorded in the songs he wrote, and we can read them today in the Book of Psalms. What we cannot do is take one song, or one stanza of a song, and proclaim that it is indeed to be taken literally while taking other stanzas from David's songs and claim they should not be taken literally.

Yet that is exactly what anti-abortion Christians are asking us to do. They use those few verses from the Psalms to support their dogma that abortion is wrong. They proclaim those verses as holy writ and the other verses as poetry that we should not be following. Clearly, this is a perfect example of taking verses out of context. And it leads us to only one conclusion: if we cannot trust that God wants to kill our enemies and abandon us, we must also conclude that we cannot trust that God has defined the fetus as being a person.

For indeed, if we allow that kind of thinking we could also make an argument that God is willing to maul children to death if they make fun of a bald guy who just happens to be in God's favor. You think I'm joking, but I'm not. In the book of Second Kings, our hero, the Prophet Elisha, who was quite bald, so it seems, was taunted by a group of young boys. Elisha's response was bitter and cruel:

"...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number."

2 Kings 2:22-24

Did God kill those forty-two kids for making fun of a bald prophet? We can certainly make an argument for that if we use the anti-abortionists' kind of thinking.

Likewise we can also use the anti-abortionists' methods to establish that God approves of pornography, as seen in these following verses by Solomon as he pondered the female body:

"How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The curves of your hips are like jewels, the work of the hands of an artist. Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks for mixed wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle."

"Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I said 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine."

Song of Solomon 7:1-3,7-9

Pretty steamy stuff. Taken by itself, it would appear God is indeed promoting a written form of pornography. But just like Psalm 139:13-16, we cannot take it by itself. Instead we must take it within the context it was written.

The same is true with the other two verses used by anti-abortion Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, these Crusaders are fond of quoting the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee," from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably:

"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant."

Jeremiah 1:4-10

This is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed all of us "over the nations and over the kingdoms" of the world. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not; therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.

Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.

The last verse most often quoted by anti-abortion Christians relates the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant. When they meet, the pre-born John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb at Mary's salutation. Let's read the original:

"And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:"

Luke 1:39-41

As much as the anti-abortion lobby would like this to mean that all fetuses are sentient persons because one is recorded as knowing Mary's words and then leapt inside the womb, the logic is as flawed as the Isaiah misquote. Again we have a miraculous event. Again we have a divine prophet whom God had ordained since before he was conceived. And this time it's even more miraculous, because the gestating John the Baptist is reacting to the approach of Mary, who at the time was pregnant with Jesus. Unless we believe all of us are chosen before birth to be the divine prophet ordained by God to herald the arrival of Christ on earth, then we cannot claim this passage refers to us. And indeed, it does not. While gestating fetuses are known to move and kick as their nervous systems and muscles are under construction, only divinely-inspired babies understand the spoken words of the mother of Jesus and can leap in recognition.

The point to all this is simple: we cannot take the verses we like and interpret them to support what we want to support. And, more to the point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context. We cannot, as we have shown, simply interpret those few verses from Psalms, Isaiah, and Luke as a reason to be against abortion. And, as we will see in a moment, there are still other verses -- if interpreted in the sloppy manner demonstrated by anti-abortion Christians -- in the Bible that could easily lead us to argue that indeed God, at times, supports abortion. Let's take a look.

In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements:

"If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

Clearly there is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is made even more clear in these following verses:

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

Here we have an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember, we're not talking about David's songs here. We're reading the words of the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom.

And Solomon was not alone in this argument. Consider the words of Job, a man of great faith and wealth, when his life fell upon the hardest of times:

"And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness; let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'"

"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master."

Job 3:2-4,11-19

And again a few chapters later Job reiterates the greater grace he would have known if his life had been terminated as a fetus:

"Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb."

Job 10:18-19

Clearly there is a strong argument here that the quality of a life is as important if not more important than the act of being born. Indeed, we could claim that the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without quality. And, if I wanted to be bold, I could claim that this interpretation is in fact a biblical mandate to support the use of abortion as a way to improve our quality of life. And taking these verses to their extreme, I could claim that abortion is not just a good idea, it is a sacrament.

Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and decide for themselves the meanings therein.

For indeed, there is one passage in the Bible that deals specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to believe:

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.

It's important to note that some anti-abortion lobbyists want to convince us the baby in this passage survived the miscarriage. They point to the more "politically-correct" translation they find in the New International Version of the Bible. There it translates the term "miscarriage" into "gives birth prematurely" (the actual words in Hebrew translate "she lose her offspring"). While this may give them the warm and fuzzy notion that this verse might actually support their cause if maybe the child survived, it is wishful thinking at best. In our modern era of miracle medicine only 60% of all premature births survive. Three thousand years ago, when this passage was written, they did not have modern technology to keep a preemie alive. In fact, at that time, more than half of all live births died before their first birthday. In a world like that, a premature birth was a death sentence.

Others have looked to the actual Hebrew words, themselves, to try and refute these verses. They note that the word "yalad" is used in verse 22 to describe the untimely birth, and that yalad is also used in other places to describe a live birth. They then go on to say other places in the Bible use the words "nefel" and "shakol" to describe a miscarriage. Therefore, the argument goes, the baby in Exodus 21:22 must have been born alive. It's easy to see how a novice might make this mistake, but a closer look at the words in question reveal the flaw in this argument.

The word yalad is a verb that describes the process of something coming out - the departing of the fetus. Since it is describing the process, and not the result, it could be used to describe either a live birth or a miscarriage. Shakol which shows up in Hosea 9:14, is also a verb, but its meaning is to make a woman barren. Now a barren woman certainly might miscarry, but with this understanding of the word, it's clear why the writer of Exodus would not have used it since this miscarriage was caused by an accident, not by barrenness. And the word nefel is not even a verb. It's a noun. True, as a noun it is the term for a miscarried fetus, but the writer wasn't using a noun. He was using a verb to describe the coming out of the fetus. Thus, if I were describing a man falling to his death, I would use the verb "to fall" which can be used for both those who die and those who survive a fall, but to describe the man himself I would use the word the "fatality." So we can see that while a novice might mistake a verb for a noun and come to the wrong conclusions about the original Hebrew words used in the Exodus passage, a more careful look proves that the words only describe the action of losing the fetus, not the fetus itself. And that being the case, we can't use the Hebrew translations to determine if the fetus was alive or not when it came out - so we are forced to accept that in all certainly, considering the medical knowledge at the time, the preemie died. This makes it even more clear that the "tooth for a tooth" passage refers only to the mother, not to the miscarried fetus.

What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

It is time to stop the one-sided view of abortion being proclaimed by Christian leaders. These leaders do not -- despite their claims -- have a biblical mandate for their theologies. It is time to stop preaching that the Bible contains an undeniable doctrine against abortion. It is time to stop the anger and hatred being heaped on abortion doctors and upon women who have abortions, especially when it's done in the name of a God who has not written such condemnations in his Bible. It is time to stop, because the act of making a judgment against people in God's name, when God is not behind the judging, is nothing short of claiming that our own beliefs are more important than God's. We must stop, because if we don't, then indeed the very type of theological argument being used against abortion can be turned around and used to proclaim that abortion is biblical.
 
Tsk tsk, fox, violating your own 'standard' that you whined about so often in the past - and PLAGIARIZING? Well done! You didn't even bother to link the passage that you c/p'd. That's a cardinal sin even by your pathetic standards. Joe Biden would be so proud of you.

I hereby pronounce you devoid of credibility.

Fox, since you didn't bother to read my article, I assume you have given up arguing. You've been unable to move me off my point and prove that the Bible advocates abortion. At best, you've only been able to make weak arguments that ignore the most elementary contextual and translation principles.

Now you're just spamming.

Thanks for proving your ignorance of the Bible, yet again.

And you still haven't addressed my question about homosexuality.
 
Tsk tsk, fox, violating your own 'standard' that you whined about so often in the past - and PLAGIARIZING? Well done! You didn't even bother to link the passage that you c/p'd. That's a cardinal sin even by your pathetic standards. Joe Biden would be so proud of you.

I hereby pronounce you devoid of credibility.

Fox, since you didn't bother to read my article, I assume you have given up arguing. You've been unable to move me off my point and prove that the Bible advocates abortion. At best, you've only been able to make weak arguments that ignore the most elementary contextual and translation principles.

Now you're just spamming.

Thanks for proving your ignorance of the Bible, yet again.

And you still haven't addressed my question about homosexuality.

And obviously you haven't read my article-I don't mind plagiarizing, since Brian and I are friends and I helped him when he was writing this... he wanted someone who knew the Bible fairly well...

You know it better than I Foss - the words - but, your interpretation is far different than many people's...

So, it is OK to kill and maim children for teasing a bald man?
 

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