BuSh lies again. How come he hasn't fired Rove as promised?

De-Spinning the Save-Rove Spin

I'm getting tired of de-spinning the Rove scandal. And I'm starting to think I prefer the silence-is-golden strategy of the White House to the lie-and-mislead approach of the Rove-backers who take to the airwaves and spout disinformation. At least, we don't have to factcheck Scott McClellan's remarks this week on the Rove matter.

I do wish I could keep track of all the bad info being peddled by Karl's Keystone Kops. But then I'd probably end up needing a nice room in a sanitarium. Here's a very unscientific sampling of what I've come across. (I've already debunked the top-priority spin of GOPers who insist that Rove did not leak classified information and that he is in no legal jeopardy because he did not actually ID Valerie Wilson by name to Matt Cooper. See two items below.)

* Yesterday, I was on a Colorado radio show with Tucker Eskew, a former Bush White House official. Eskew kept saying the Rove affair was a summer sideshow orchestrated by Democrats. Funny, I thought it was a criminal investigation being mounted by a special prosecutor--Patrick Fitzgerald--who was suggested for his job as US attorney in Illinois by then Senator Peter Fitzgerald, a Republican (no relation). Patrick Fitzgerald has targeted both Ds and Rs in the Land of Lincoln. Yet Eskew kept saying this was a trivial matter only being kept alive by partisan Democrats. Tell that to Fitzgerald. And, hey, doesn't the White House say no one should "prejudge the investigation." It's a clash of talking points! Shouldn't Bush, the titular head of the GOP, tell all those Republican mouthpieces to stop all the prejudging?

* On NPR's Diane Rehm Show this morning, David Keene, head of the American Conservative Union, said that Rove could not be prosecuted under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act because it's only a crime if a government official discloses the name of a covert agent "with the intent to impair national security." Wrong. There is no intent provision of that kind as the law applies to government officials like Karl Rove. To violate the law, one must intentionally reveal information that identifies an undercover intelligence officer and one must be aware that the officer is working under cover. But the motive is not relevant. Keene was not telling the truth. He also said, "It's clear from the documents that no law was violated." Then seconds later, he said, "We don't know all the facts." Moments after that, he asserted, "I don't think there's a legal pardon here." Well, which is it? If we don't know all the facts, how can we say no law was violated? It's amazing that when a veteran spinner like Keene spins, his head doesn't explode into very tiny pieces.

* Last night, I was on an NPR show with Representative Jack Kingston, a Republican. He claimed that no crime was committed in the Plame/CIA leak matter unless the leaker disclosed her identity "maliciously." I hope this guy is no lawyer. The law says nothing about malicious intent. He also noted that Joseph Wilson had donated money to the John Kerry campaign. I was confused by this. Does that mean it was okay to disclose the CIA identity of his wife? Kingston forgot to mention that Wilson also gave money to George W. Bush during the GOP presidential primary campaign in 2000. Wilson has repeatedly said he regrets doing so.

* Conservative columnist Byron York was also on that NPR show. He's one of the more reasonable rightwing reporters I know. But he, too, parroted the pro-Rove spin, saying, in his mild manner, that it was unclear to him whether Valerie Wilson was undercover in any significant way. From the start of this controversy, conservatives have been insinuating that Valerie Wilson was not under serious cover. their point: this leak was no biggie. In the early days of the controversy, Clifford May, a former New York Times reporter who went on to become a GOP spokesperson, maintained that it was widely known throughout Washington that Valerie Wilson worked at the CIA. Since then, there's been absolutely no evidence to support May's claim. But back to York's observation. Valerie Wilson worked at the CIA under what's called "nonofficial cover." She was a NOC. This means that when she worked overseas she did not have a diplomatic passport and did not pass herself off as an embassy official. If anything happened to her, she'd be in mucho trouble. And she worked with a front group that was set up to give her--and maybe other CIA officials working in the field of WMDs--cover as energy analysts. When the leak occurred, she was indeed at a desk job at the CIA. But NOCs can come and go from CIA headquarters. They maintain their cover so they can return to the field if necessary and to protect the operations they previously worked on and the people (sources, agents, fellow officers) they previously worked with. Outing a NOC can endanger more than the particular person.

Moreover, the CIA thought the leak justified an investigation. It requested that the Justice Department pursue the matter. The Justice Department eventually handed the case to Fitzgerald, and he has seen reason to mount a fierce inquiry. And several federal judges who have reviewed his court filings--in the cases involving Matt Cooper and Judith Miller--all supported Fitzgerald's claim that the leak amounted to a serious breach. True, we still don't know exactly what Valerie Wilson did as a NOC. But York's gentle suggestion that her CIA identity was a minor and not-all-that-important secret is contradicted by the public record.

* Today's Washington Post reported this: "Victoria Toensing, who helped write the [Intelligence Identities Protection Act], has said that there is likely no such evidence [that could convict the leaker] in this case, because the statute was designed to have a high standard and requires proof of intent to harm national security." Well, I would respectfully suggest that Toensing--a good Republican lawyer and commentator, which is not how she is identified in the Post, who is always willing to talk to me--should go back and review the law she helped write. It reads:

Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

Where's the part that says the leaker has to leak purposefully to harm national security? There is no such standard. Perhaps the Post reporters should also read the law.
 
There's a thing called due process in this country. How's about we let that happen...

It doesn't matter how guilty or not guilty anyone thinks he is. If there's sufficient evidence he will be charged.

Hell, Bin Laden hasn't been charged with masterminding 9\11. But he will...just give it time.

If Karl Rove is guilty I hope he is punished within the boundries of the law. But using this situation as some sort of witch hunt is just plain silly...
 
I would remind you that Karl Rove hasn't even been named as a target in this investigation.
 
I heard an interesting comment today about thos controversy. Dick Morris (helped Clinton win in '92/'96, same position as Rove had), anyway, he said all of this hubris came up in 1993. If Bush had not won the election in 2004, would we be talking about it now? You can bet your sweet bippy we wouldn't be. That says it all as far as I am concerned. Just a witch-hunt is all it is. And I have to laugh. Rove isn't even a part of the investigation at this point.
 
Bryan,

Rove may not have committed any crime. In that case the President has no obligation to get rid of him. However, If indeed he did reveal an agent's identity in revenge for criticism is that not a major moral infraction? Rove has been referred to as "Bush's Brain". Should that person be advising our CIC?
 
barry2952 said:
Bryan,

Rove may not have committed any crime. In that case the President has no obligation to get rid of him. However, If indeed he did reveal an agent's identity in revenge for criticism is that not a major moral infraction? Rove has been referred to as "Bush's Brain". Should that person be advising our CIC?

No, if you look back on it, Rove was trying to keep a reporter from printing a false story. That's why he told the reporter to leave the story alone.

Why would it matter? If you read Joe Wilson's book, his wife-to-be (Valerie Plame) told him she was a secret CIA agent while on their third date several years ago. And he outed her in his book anyway. This doesn't sound like the actions of people who are fastidious about keeping secrets.
 
Here is an excerpt of some pretty good questions that need to be answered.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/29/160443.shtml
[font=ARIAL, HELVETICA]With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff[/font] [font=ARIAL, HELVETICA]For the story behind the story... [/font]


spacer.gif
[font=Courier, Times New Roman]Thursday, April 29, 2004 4:02 p.m. EDT

Joe Wilson's Book: Questions That Need to Be Asked


The White House is said to be bracing for Uraniumgate accuser Joe Wilson's new book, "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity" - set for release on Friday. [snip]





You said the White House put your wife's life in danger when it revealed she worked for the CIA. But then you allowed a photo of her - disguised only by sunglasses and a headscarf - to be splashed all over the centerfold of Vanity Fair magazine. Didn't that further put her in danger?

<LI>In your comments to Vanity Fair, you reveal that your wife told you she was a CIA agent during what you said was "a heavy make-out session" on your "third or fourth date." If she was in the habit of telling her dates that she worked for the CIA, was her identity really all that secret?

<LI>If her identity was indeed that sensitive, did your wife violate CIA secrecy rules by telling you who she worked for?

<LI>Former CIA agent Larry Johnson told PBS in October that your wife has been an undercover CIA agent for three decades. Yet the Washington Post has reported that she's just 40 years old, which would mean she was 10 when she joined the agency.

How long did your wife spend undercover and was she still truly undercover at the time she was outed?

<LI>In October, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof reported: "The C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given Mrs. Wilson's name [along with those of other spies] to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994."

At the time, Kristof noted, your wife was brought home for safety reasons and "was already in transition away from undercover work to management, and to liaison roles with other intelligence agencies. So this year, even before she was outed, she was moving away from 'noc' – which means non-official cover."

If true, how could she have still been undercover when she was outed?



<LI>Doesn't some of the harsh rhetoric you've directed toward the Bush White House also call into question your objectivity? For instance, well before your wife was outed, you wrote in The Nation magazine that under George Bush, "America has entered one of it periods of historical madness."

Then, according to Slate magazine, after she was outed you called the Bush White House a bunch of "f--king a--holes and thugs." By publicly expressing such vitriol, haven't you thoroughly compromised your credibility?

<LI>You've repeatedly said there's no evidence that Iraq purchased yellowcake uranium from Niger. But President Bush never claimed it did. What Bush said was "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Are you saying there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Iraq sought uranium from Niger, especially since it purchased hundreds of tons of yellowcake from Niger in the 1980s?

<LI>You and other Bush critics have repeatedly said that British intelligence on Iraq's attempt to purchase yellowcake uranium was based on forged documents. But Tony Blair has specifically said his intelligence relies on separate information that has nothing to do with the forged documents. How can you say that there's no evidence unless you know what evidence Tony Blair has? If Mr. Russert asks Wilson even a few of the above questions, we suspect that the Uraniumgate scandal - along with sales of Wilson's book - will collapse like a house of cards.

[/font]
 
Ok, guys, it's over. Rove has been exonerated. Read article from none other than the New York Times. In fact, if anybody should be investigated at this point, it's the liar Joe Wilson.

So, libs, WHO'S NEXT?
 
fossten said:
Ok, guys, it's over. Rove has been exonerated. Read article from none other than the New York Times. In fact, if anybody should be investigated at this point, it's the liar Joe Wilson.

So, libs, WHO'S NEXT?
The Justice department is conducting the investigation, not the NYTimes. You right wingers are always saying the Times is a liberal rag, now you're jumping to them to exonerate Shrubs brain?
 
MonsterMark said:
Here is an excerpt of some pretty good questions that need to be answered.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/29/160443.shtml
[font=ARIAL, HELVETICA]With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff[/font] [font=ARIAL, HELVETICA]For the story behind the story... [/font]


spacer.gif
[font=Courier, Times New Roman]Thursday, April 29, 2004 4:02 p.m. EDT

Joe Wilson's Book: Questions That Need to Be Asked


The White House is said to be bracing for Uraniumgate accuser Joe Wilson's new book, "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity" - set for release on Friday. [snip]





You said the White House put your wife's life in danger when it revealed she worked for the CIA. But then you allowed a photo of her - disguised only by sunglasses and a headscarf - to be splashed all over the centerfold of Vanity Fair magazine. Didn't that further put her in danger?

<LI>In your comments to Vanity Fair, you reveal that your wife told you she was a CIA agent during what you said was "a heavy make-out session" on your "third or fourth date." If she was in the habit of telling her dates that she worked for the CIA, was her identity really all that secret?

<LI>If her identity was indeed that sensitive, did your wife violate CIA secrecy rules by telling you who she worked for?

<LI>Former CIA agent Larry Johnson told PBS in October that your wife has been an undercover CIA agent for three decades. Yet the Washington Post has reported that she's just 40 years old, which would mean she was 10 when she joined the agency.

How long did your wife spend undercover and was she still truly undercover at the time she was outed?

<LI>In October, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof reported: "The C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given Mrs. Wilson's name [along with those of other spies] to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994."

At the time, Kristof noted, your wife was brought home for safety reasons and "was already in transition away from undercover work to management, and to liaison roles with other intelligence agencies. So this year, even before she was outed, she was moving away from 'noc' – which means non-official cover."

If true, how could she have still been undercover when she was outed?



<LI>Doesn't some of the harsh rhetoric you've directed toward the Bush White House also call into question your objectivity? For instance, well before your wife was outed, you wrote in The Nation magazine that under George Bush, "America has entered one of it periods of historical madness."

Then, according to Slate magazine, after she was outed you called the Bush White House a bunch of "f--king a--holes and thugs." By publicly expressing such vitriol, haven't you thoroughly compromised your credibility?

<LI>You've repeatedly said there's no evidence that Iraq purchased yellowcake uranium from Niger. But President Bush never claimed it did. What Bush said was "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Are you saying there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Iraq sought uranium from Niger, especially since it purchased hundreds of tons of yellowcake from Niger in the 1980s?

<LI>You and other Bush critics have repeatedly said that British intelligence on Iraq's attempt to purchase yellowcake uranium was based on forged documents. But Tony Blair has specifically said his intelligence relies on separate information that has nothing to do with the forged documents. How can you say that there's no evidence unless you know what evidence Tony Blair has? If Mr. Russert asks Wilson even a few of the above questions, we suspect that the Uraniumgate scandal - along with sales of Wilson's book - will collapse like a house of cards.

[/font]

Seems pretty one sided to me, bryan. Where are wilsons responses to the questions?
 
Go to Original

Rove Leak is Just Part of Larger Scandal
By Daniel Schorr
The Christian Science Monitor

Friday 15 July 2005

Washington - Let me remind you that the underlying issue in the Karl Rove controversy is not a leak, but a war and how America was misled into that war.

In 2002 President Bush, having decided to invade Iraq, was casting about for a casus belli. The weapons of mass destruction theme was not yielding very much until a dubious Italian intelligence report, based partly on forged documents (it later turned out), provided reason to speculate that Iraq might be trying to buy so-called yellowcake uranium from the African country of Niger. It did not seem to matter that the CIA advised that the Italian information was "fragmentary and lacked detail."

Prodded by Vice President Dick Cheney and in the hope of getting more conclusive information, the CIA sent Joseph Wilson, an old Africa hand, to Niger to investigate. Mr. Wilson spent eight days talking to everyone in Niger possibly involved and came back to report no sign of an Iraqi bid for uranium and, anyway, Niger's uranium was committed to other countries for many years to come.

No news is bad news for an administration gearing up for war. Ignoring Wilson's report, Cheney talked on TV about Iraq's nuclear potential. And the president himself, in his 2003 State of the Union address no less, pronounced: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Wilson declined to maintain a discreet silence. He told various people that the president was at least mistaken, at most telling an untruth. Finally Wilson directly challenged the administration with a July 6, 2003 New York Times op-ed headlined, "What I didn't find in Africa," and making clear his belief that the president deliberately manipulated intelligence in order to justify an invasion.

One can imagine the fury in the White House. We now know from the e-mail traffic of Time's correspondent Matt Cooper that five days after the op-ed appeared, he advised his bureau chief of a super-secret conversation with Karl Rove who alerted him to the fact that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and may have recommended him for the Niger assignment. Three days later, Bob Novak's column appeared giving Wilson's wife's name, Valerie Plame, and the fact she was an undercover CIA officer. Mr. Novak has yet to say, in public, whether Mr. Rove was his source. Enough is known to surmise that the leaks of Rove, or others deputized by him, amounted to retaliation against someone who had the temerity to challenge the president of the United States when he was striving to find some plausible reason for invading Iraq.

The role of Rove and associates added up to a small incident in a very large scandal - the effort to delude America into thinking it faced a threat dire enough to justify a war.

Daniel Schorr is the senior news analyst at National Public Radio.



Go to Original

Rove Tied to Tom DeLay Lobbying Scandal
Campaign for a Cleaner Congress | Press Release

Thursday 14 July 2005

Washington - Karl Rove's involvement in leaking the name of a CIA operative for political advantage during wartime could be just the tip of the iceberg as far as unethical behavior, since his web of influence extends to the most notorious figure of the House Lobbying Scandal.

"It's widely known that Karl Rove has been pulling strings all over Washington for years, obviously not just in the case of the Plame leak," said Peter L. Kelley, manager of the Campaign for a Cleaner Congress.

"What is not widely known, however, is his close connection with Jack Abramoff, who is at the center of the lobbying scandal in which Washington is now embroiled. Rove let archconservative operatives like Grover Norquist call shots at the White House. And just this week, a Texas judge ruled that a former Rove lieutenant must face felony charges of money laundering for Tom DeLay's political operation.

"Without further ethics reforms, the public has virtually no ability to find out what is really going on in Washington these days," Kelley said. "But what we do know is starting to smell, and it offers a starting point for further investigation."

* When Rove got to the White House in 2001, he hired as his personal assistant Susan Ralston, previously Abramoff's personal assistant. Ralston has since become an insider's insider.

* Norquist reportedly made a deal in which Ralston would take messages for Rove at the White House, then call Norquist to tell her whether she should put the caller through.

* John Colyandro wrote direct mail pieces for Rove in the 1980s. When he was hired as executive director of the Texans for a Republican Majority PAC, he was described as a "longtime pal of Rove's." This week, a judge said Colyandro must stand trial for laundering over $600,000 in corporate campaign contributions.

"Could party leaders' abrupt about-face on the Plame case have anything to do with the other ethics scandals that have been grabbing headlines for months now?" said Kelley. "It seems there are more than a few bad apples in this barrel, and they don't like it that the public is starting to find out."
 
Editorial: Karl Rove/Real issue is the case for war
July 14, 2005 ED0714


Did White House political adviser Karl Rove deliberately reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative? Only two people can answer that question, and neither one is talking: Rove himself and special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who is investigating the question.

Sooner or later, we probably will get an answer. Fitzgerald has been so aggressive in this investigation -- to the point of jailing a New York Times reporter who refused to reveal her confidential sources -- that indictments are reasonably likely.

In the meantime, it's important to look beyond the immediate political spectacle in Washington -- White House spokesman Scott McClellan finally confronted by reporters who feel abused and lied to -- to the reason Rove was talking to a reporter about ex-diplomat Joseph Wilson at all.

The real issue, more serious and less glitzy than whether Bush will stand by his political adviser, is the extraordinary efforts the Bush administration made to protect a case for war in Iraq from all contradictory evidence -- in effect, as the British spymaster Sir Richard Dearlove put it, to "fix" the facts and intelligence so they would support a decision already made.

Enter Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame, an undercover CIA operative specializing in weapons of mass destruction. As Wilson tells it, a question arose at the CIA early in 2002, prompted by an inquiry from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, about reports that Iraq had purchased uranium for nuclear weapons from the African country of Niger, where Wilson previously had served. When someone was needed to travel to Niger, Plame apparently told her superiors that her husband had good contacts there. CIA officials talked with Wilson and decided he should be the one to make the trip.

In late February of 2002 Wilson made the trip, talked with numerous people in Niger, including the U.S. ambassador, and concluded there was nothing to reports of an Iraq-Niger connection. He briefed officials at both the CIA and State Department on his conclusions.

In January 2003, however, President Bush asserted an Iraq-Africa uranium connection in his State of the Union message. Subsequently, it turned out that Bush was indeed referring to Niger. The Niger-Iraq connection became one of the pillars in Bush's case for war with Iraq.

After the start of the war, Wilson wrote a lengthy op-ed piece for the New York Times laying out the facts of his trip and saying he had "little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat."

Five days later, Rove told Time reporter Matt Cooper he should "not get too far out on Wilson." His trip to Niger, Rove said, wasn't approved by Cheney or CIA Director George Tenet. Cooper wrote to his boss, "It was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip."

Three days later, columnist Robert Novak identified Plame as a CIA operative and said two "senior administration officials" told him Plame suggested sending her husband. About the same time, a confidential source also told a Washington Post reporter that the trip was a "boondoggle" arranged by Plame.

This is a classic Rove technique: undercut a critic by planting the notion that he was off to Africa on a lark arranged by his wife. Rove's history as a rough political player is well-documented. But this wasn't about a political campaign; this was about a serious question of national security and the justification for a difficult war.

It also wasn't true. On July 22, Newsday reported that a "senior intelligence officer confirmed that Plame was a directorate of operations undercover officer who worked 'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger. But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment." This senior intelligence officer also told Newsday that it was incorrect to suggest " 'she was the one who was cooking this up.' " Besides, he said, " 'We paid his airfare. But to go to Niger is not exactly a benefit. Most people you'd have to pay big bucks to go there.' " The CIA always said Plame did not recommend her husband.

It is instructive to remember that the investigation into who revealed Plame's identity was initiated by Tenet, not by administration critics. Remember also that Wilson was correct; ultimately the White House had to retract Bush's State of the Union statement on the Niger connection.

In addition to discrediting critics of the Niger connection, the Bush administration, through the actions of John Bolton -- now nominee to be U.N. ambassador -- sought to intimidate intelligence analysts who objected to conclusions about Iraq's WMD, and to get a U.N. chemical weapons official fired so he wouldn't be able to send inspectors back to Iraq, where they might disprove more of the case for war.

In the scheme of things, whether Rove revealed Plame's identity, deliberately or not, matters less than actions by Rove, Bolton, Cheney and others to phony up a case for war that has gone badly, has cost thousands of lives plus hundreds of billions of dollars, and has, a majority of Americans now believe, left the United States less safe from terrorism rather than more.

That's the indictment which should matter most.
 
97silverlsc said:
The Justice department is conducting the investigation, not the NYTimes. You right wingers are always saying the Times is a liberal rag, now you're jumping to them to exonerate Shrubs brain?

I only mentioned the Times because I figured even YOU couldn't ignore your own liberal ad agency.

By the way, your latest two over-long postings contain articles that have no credibility since the writers fail to confirm whether or not Joe Wilson is telling the truth. In fact, he will be borne out to be a liar. Interesting how his press conference yesterday only managed to keep the news networks interested for a few minutes. Bo-ring! Nobody takes him seriously. He's the one trying to get press over this. Nobody else cares. Come on, the guy in his pathetic book outed his own wife who outed herself while they were making out on a date. If anything, the press should be interrogating and investigating him.

CAN ANYBODY FIND A SERIOUS WITNESS HERE?

Why isn't anybody wondering why Judith Miller is still keeping her mouth shut? I think the NY Times has something embarrassing to hide.
 
97silverlsc said:
In addition to discrediting critics of the Niger connection, the Bush administration, through the actions of John Bolton -- now nominee to be U.N. ambassador -- sought to intimidate intelligence analysts who objected to conclusions about Iraq's WMD, and to get a U.N. chemical weapons official fired so he wouldn't be able to send inspectors back to Iraq, where they might disprove more of the case for war.

In the scheme of things, whether Rove revealed Plame's identity, deliberately or not, matters less than actions by Rove, Bolton, Cheney and others to phony up a case for war that has gone badly, has cost thousands of lives plus hundreds of billions of dollars, and has, a majority of Americans now believe, left the United States less safe from terrorism rather than more.

That's the indictment which should matter most.

A-friggin-men! Funny how Bolton has figured into this scandal.

As the Shrub Burns.
:Beer
 
Can't wait for Bush to stick it up the Dems arses by giving Bolton a Recess Appointment. That'll be great! Yep, Bush, dumb as a fox.
 
The Plame Game! :bowrofl: Is that appropriate or what?

Man, it seems that everybody but me knew she was a CIA operative. What a big mouth she turned out to be. And her p.o.s. husband is gonna get his handed to him for sure. What a slimeball shill the Dems are backing.
 
MonsterMark said:
The Plame Game! :bowrofl: Is that appropriate or what?

Man, it seems that everybody but me knew she was a CIA operative. What a big mouth she turned out to be. And her p.o.s. husband is gonna get his handed to him for sure. What a slimeball shill the Dems are backing.

:I :N :yourock: :headbang:

Whaddya wanna bet Michael Moore tries to make a movie out of this? :bsflag:
 
MonsterMark said:
Can't wait for Bush to stick it up the Dems arses by giving Bolton a Recess Appointment. That'll be great! Yep, Bush, dumb as a fox.


Then you wont be complaining when the Dems filabuster other appointments - Like Supreme Court nominees...... IMO its no worse then a recess appoointment. Im willing to leave 1 seat vacant on the Supremem court for a few years until someone with a few active brain cells gets into the oval office..

Yup - Dumb as a lame duck.
 
Joeychgo said:
Then you wont be complaining when the Dems filabuster other appointments - Like Supreme Court nominees...... IMO its no worse then a recess appoointment. Im willing to leave 1 seat vacant on the Supremem court for a few years until someone with a few active brain cells gets into the oval office..

Yup - Dumb as a lame duck.

Then you won't be complaining when the Senate invokes the Constitutional option and overrides the unconstitutional filibuster. A recess appointment is, unlike judicial filibuster, NOT unconstitutional.
 
Joeychgo said:
Then you wont be complaining when the Dems filabuster other appointments - Like Supreme Court nominees......
I'm tired of the Obstructionist Party. I wish Bush would just say to hell with all of you and tell the Senate to use the nuclear option to get his appointments to the Supreme Court and recess appoint however he wants. Ya, that's what Clinton did, didn't he? And you didn't hear all the whining in the press about it, did ya?!

He's not running for re-election anymore and no matter how hard he tries to make the left happy, it will never be good enough. So I would tell Bush to say screw you and Just Do It.
 
Joeychgo said:
Im willing to leave 1 seat vacant on the Supremem court for a few years until someone with a few active brain cells gets into the oval office..

So you are in favor of the Supreme Court taking away our freedom of property? That's socialism, pal. Because that's just what they did last month. Your favorite liberal judges wiped out the intent of the Constitution of the United States and favored - yep- BIG BUSINESS over the little guy. That's funny, I thought liberals were supposed to be the ones who looked out for the "working families of America." Now any big developer can take away your property at the whim of whatever local government they can suck up to enough, and there's not a thing you can do about it.
 
fossten said:
By the way, your latest two over-long postings contain articles that have no credibility since the writers fail to confirm whether or not Joe Wilson is telling the truth.

That statement, by far, is one of the most idiotic I've heard out of you yet, and you've had some real winners before. Just how are they to confirm he's telling the truth? Truth serum? Electro-shock? Joe Wilson served in the State department for over 20 years and was posted to countries in Africa and the Middle East. He was well regarded by all the administrations he served, was given commendation by GW 41 for his work at the embassy in Iraq during the first Iraq war. You RWW would rather attempt to destroy the credibility of someone with a distinguished service record than admit that you puppet boy might be wrong. You people truly are sick.
 
Karl Rove's America
By Paul Krugman
The New York Times

Friday 15 July 2005

John Gibson of Fox News says that Karl Rove should be given a medal. I agree: Mr. Rove should receive a medal from the American Political Science Association for his pioneering discoveries about modern American politics. The medal can, if necessary, be delivered to his prison cell.

What Mr. Rove understood, long before the rest of us, is that we're not living in the America of the past, where even partisans sometimes changed their views when faced with the facts. Instead, we're living in a country in which there is no longer such a thing as nonpolitical truth. In particular, there are now few, if any, limits to what conservative politicians can get away with: the faithful will follow the twists and turns of the party line with a loyalty that would have pleased the Comintern.

I first realized that we were living in Karl Rove's America during the 2000 presidential campaign, when George W. Bush began saying things about Social Security privatization and tax cuts that were simply false. At first, I thought the Bush campaign was making a big mistake - that these blatant falsehoods would be condemned by prominent Republican politicians and Republican economists, especially those who had spent years building reputations as advocates of fiscal responsibility. In fact, with hardly any exceptions they lined up to praise Mr. Bush's proposals.

But the real demonstration that Mr. Rove understands American politics better than any pundit came after 9/11.

Every time I read a lament for the post-9/11 era of national unity, I wonder what people are talking about. On the issues I was watching, the Republicans' exploitation of the atrocity began while ground zero was still smoldering.

Mr. Rove has been much criticized for saying that liberals responded to the attack by wanting to offer the terrorists therapy - but what he said about conservatives, that they "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war," is equally false. What many of them actually saw was a domestic political opportunity - and none more so than Mr. Rove.

A less insightful political strategist might have hesitated right after 9/11 before using it to cast the Democrats as weak on national security. After all, there were no facts to support that accusation.

But Mr. Rove understood that the facts were irrelevant. For one thing, he knew he could count on the administration's supporters to obediently accept a changing story line. Read the before-and-after columns by pro-administration pundits about Iraq: before the war they castigated the CIA for understating the threat posed by Saddam's W.M.D.; after the war they castigated the CIA for exaggerating the very same threat.

Mr. Rove also understands, better than anyone else in American politics, the power of smear tactics. Attacks on someone who contradicts the official line don't have to be true, or even plausible, to undermine that person's effectiveness. All they have to do is get a lot of media play, and they'll create the sense that there must be something wrong with the guy.

And now we know just how far he was willing to go with these smear tactics: as part of the effort to discredit Joseph Wilson IV, Mr. Rove leaked the fact that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for the CIA I don't know whether Mr. Rove can be convicted of a crime, but there's no question that he damaged national security for partisan advantage. If a Democrat had done that, Republicans would call it treason.

But what we're getting, instead, is yet another impressive demonstration that these days, truth is political. One after another, prominent Republicans and conservative pundits have declared their allegiance to the party line. They haven't just gone along with the diversionary tactics, like the irrelevant questions about whether Mr. Rove used Valerie Wilson's name in identifying her (Robert Novak later identified her by her maiden name, Valerie Plame), or the false, easily refuted claim that Mr. Wilson lied about who sent him to Niger. They're now a chorus, praising Mr. Rove as a patriotic whistle-blower.

Ultimately, this isn't just about Mr. Rove. It's also about Mr. Bush, who has always known that his trusted political adviser - a disciple of the late Lee Atwater, whose smear tactics helped President Bush's father win the 1988 election - is a thug, and obviously made no attempt to find out if he was the leaker.

Most of all, it's about what has happened to America. How did our political system get to this point?



Go to Original

It's Clear the Leakers Knew What They Were Doing
By Josh Marshall
The Hill

Friday 15 July 2005

Strip away all the stress and fury on both sides of the aisle this week and you'll find one key question at the heart of both the legal and political storm surrounding the president's top political adviser.

That is, did Karl Rove and other top administration officials, for whatever reason, knowingly reveal the identity of a covert CIA agent or were they unaware of her covert status? As prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald would no doubt tell us if he were at liberty to speak, divining, let alone proving, knowledge and intent in such a case is a very tricky business. But there's a good bit of circumstantial evidence pointing to the conclusion that Rove and others knew exactly what they were doing.

Allow me to explain.

The best evidence for the "they knew" version of events has always been the column that started it all - Robert Novak's July 14 column in which he named Valerie Plame as "an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."

In intelligence jargon, "operative" has a very specific meaning. It means a covert or clandestine officer. Novak's been a journalist for 50 years. So clearly he used that term because he knew Plame was covert. And if he knew, the logical assumption is that he knew because his sources - "two senior administration officials" - told him.

That much seemed clear. But not long after the Plame case stormed onto the front pages almost two years ago, Novak changed his story. He said that he made a mistake when he used the word "operative." He didn't know she was covert, and neither did his sources.

Here's what he told Tim Russert in October 2003:

"The one thing I regret I wrote, I used the word 'operative,' and I think Mr. [David] Broder ['Meet the Press' panelist] will agree that I use the word too much. I use it about hat politicians. I use it about people on the Hill. And if somebody did a Nexis search of my columns, they'd find an overuse of 'operative.' I did not mean it. I don't know what she did. But the indication given to me by this senior official and another senior official I checked with was not that she was deep undercover."

Is that really true? Was it just Novak's laziness or sloppiness that started this whole train running down the tracks? Quite a lot depends on the answer.

There's a good deal of circumstantial evidence - thus far largely ignored - that points strongly to the conclusion that Novak is being much less than honest.

First, consider timing. What Novak told Russert was not only after the story had caught fire in the media but, probably even more important, after it had spawned a Justice Department criminal investigation.

What about what he said earlier? It turns out we have some good evidence for that.

The first newspaper article written about Novak's role in exposing a covert agent was a July 22, 2003, Newsday article by Timothy Phelps and Newt Royce. That's about a week after Novak's column ran and well before the story caught fire in Washington. The article focuses squarely on the controversy over and damage caused by the exposure of covert agent. Phelps and Royce interviewed Novak for the column, too. And he said nothing about any misunderstanding about Plame's status.

What he told them was this: "I didn't dig it out. It was given to me. They thought it was significant. They gave me the name and I used it."

If Novak then thought he or his sources didn't know Plame was covert, he didn't think to mention it. And it was the whole point of the article he was being interviewed for.

Then there's another clue. Novak's story has always relied on the belief that he committed a monumental act of sloppiness or carelessness - a claim hard to credit about a reporter who's been doing this as long as Novak.

As I said above, "operative" has a very specific meaning in intelligence argot. So how does Novak usually use the word?

Not long after Novak's appearance on Russert's show, I used the Nexis database to find all the examples I could in which Novak used the word "operative" in the context of intelligence work or the CIA. Not surprisingly, in every example I found he used the term "operative" to refer to clandestine CIA officers. And that makes sense, since the term has a specific meaning in the context and he's a veteran reporter.

Novak wants us to believe that on this one occasion he lapsed into the colloquial meaning of the word and used it to mean no more than you might if you were referring to a Democratic or Republican "operative." With all due respect to Novak and his decades as a Washington reporter - indeed, precisely because of them - that's just not credible.

There's no way to get inside someone else's mind. But all the available evidence points to the conclusion that Novak's claims on Russert and elsewhere are an after-the-fact attempt to get himself and his sources out of a very uncomfortable bind.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top