And its gone.

[Frogman]

Well.. Let's go to school:

As I am sure you are aware, what with living in the great Socialist state of Kalifornia, there are these people called "Leaf Lickers". They go by name names, but that's what I like to call them. You may know them as "Environmentalists".

As such, some of these leaf lickers work for a government agency called the EPA. That's the Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA, being the leader in following other countries "standards", in 1997, decided that diesels were way too dirty, so they came out with this plan for heavy duty and medium duty on-road diesel vehicle manufacturers:

Reduce emissions out of diesel motors, or be fined.

The first deadline was the end of 2003. FORD would have loved to keep the 7.3, but International just could not make the engine any more cleaner than it was. Period.

International had been working on a smaller, more fuel efficient and more powerful engine that came in a 6 liter flavor, that actually met the EPA regulations. At the same time, International and FORD knew the standards would be even stricter come 2007. They also knew that fuel would only contain 15ppm of sulphur, so the 6 liter engine was what's known as an "Interim" Engine, while they set off to design an even cleaner engine.

International had not worked all the bugs out of the 6.0, so FORD and International had an agreement. They would each pay 50% of warranty costs. FORD, being the company they are, decided that the software engineers at International were idiots, so the FORD engineers re-wrote the engine management software. This is one of the reasons the 6.0 had so many issues with injectors.

By 2006, most of the bugs had been worked out of the 6.0. Unfortunately, the new 6.4 engine did not go into the 2007 MY because FORD wanted to make damned sure the motor would not give them another black eye, as the 6.0 did. So, they tested it for yet another year.

Enter the 6.4 Powerstoke. Bigger, better, common rail injection, twin turbos, and fixed headstuds. Unfortunately, with it also had to come such silly chokes as Catalytic converters (actually, those have been on diesels since 03), and this new-fangled DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). What does this DPF thing do? Aside from choking the truck's exhaust, and using yet more fuel to burn these particulates, not much.

About this time, FORD and International started complaining to each other about the warranty costs I mentioned to you earlier. And as such, after a bunch of court battles, International told FORD to eff off. Some say that FORD intentionally did this, because they were secretly working on their own, in-house designed 6.7 Liter engine, codenamed "Scorpion". Some say that International was tired of putting up with FORD's BS. No one really knows, except the big cheeses at those respective companies. You see, when FORD can keep an extra 2-3 grand per each motor manufactured "in-house", they will do it. This whole issue started long before the 6.4 engine was out, so it's not a "reliability issue" as you put it.

Now, FORD had purchased enough engines to last them through 2010, as the new 6.7 Liter engine is slated for 2011 Production.

Again, I could really care less about fuel economy. I showed you that picture I took in march of this year, to show you that the 450 does indeed go over 15MPG with an automatic tranny. Now, of course, you conveniently don't "trust" onboard fuel computers. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I KNOW what my pick-up truck gets, I KNOW what it can do, and I KNOW because I have one. I don't have to listen to other people and form my opinions on this vehicle from them.

Now. Class dismissed!

 

[Mechanicboy]

Well.. Let's go to school:

As I am sure you are aware, what with living in the great Socialist state of Kalifornia, there are these people called "Leaf Lickers". They go by name names, but that's what I like to call them. You may know them as "Environmentalists".

As such, some of these leaf lickers work for a government agency called the EPA. That's the Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA, being the leader in following other countries "standards", in 1997, decided that diesels were way too dirty, so they came out with this plan for heavy duty and medium duty on-road diesel vehicle manufacturers:

Reduce emissions out of diesel motors, or be fined.

The first deadline was the end of 2003. FORD would have loved to keep the 7.3, but International just could not make the engine any more cleaner than it was. Period.

International had been working on a smaller, more fuel efficient and more powerful engine that came in a 6 liter flavor, that actually met the EPA regulations. At the same time, International and FORD knew the standards would be even stricter come 2007. They also knew that fuel would only contain 15ppm of sulphur, so the 6 liter engine was what's known as an "Interim" Engine, while they set off to design an even cleaner engine.

International had not worked all the bugs out of the 6.0, so FORD and International had an agreement. They would each pay 50% of warranty costs. FORD, being the company they are, decided that the software engineers at International were idiots, so the FORD engineers re-wrote the engine management software. This is one of the reasons the 6.0 had so many issues with injectors.

By 2006, most of the bugs had been worked out of the 6.0. Unfortunately, the new 6.4 engine did not go into the 2007 MY because FORD wanted to make damned sure the motor would not give them another black eye, as the 6.0 did. So, they tested it for yet another year.

Enter the 6.4 Powerstoke. Bigger, better, common rail injection, twin turbos, and fixed headstuds. Unfortunately, with it also had to come such silly chokes as Catalytic converters (actually, those have been on diesels since 03), and this new-fangled DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). What does this DPF thing do? Aside from choking the truck's exhaust, and using yet more fuel to burn these particulates, not much.

About this time, FORD and International started complaining to each other about the warranty costs I mentioned to you earlier. And as such, after a bunch of court battles, International told FORD to eff off. Some say that FORD intentionally did this, because they were secretly working on their own, in-house designed 6.7 Liter engine, codenamed "Scorpion". Some say that International was tired of putting up with FORD's BS. No one really knows, except the big cheeses at those respective companies. You see, when FORD can keep an extra 2-3 grand per each motor manufactured "in-house", they will do it. This whole issue started long before the 6.4 engine was out, so it's not a "reliability issue" as you put it.

Now, FORD had purchased enough engines to last them through 2010, as the new 6.7 Liter engine is slated for 2011 Production.

Again, I could really care less about fuel economy. I showed you that picture I took in march of this year, to show you that the 450 does indeed go over 15MPG with an automatic tranny. Now, of course, you conveniently don't "trust" onboard fuel computers. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I KNOW what my pick-up truck gets, I KNOW what it can do, and I KNOW because I have one. I don't have to listen to other people and form my opinions on this vehicle from them.

Now. Class dismissed!

If this is the class then the teacher just repeated what the student just said, added extra information to make the class longer and injected information to the conspiracy theorist to chew on.

You are correct that the state of California is primarily comprised of blind enviro wack jobs.

DPF are not all that new, have several designs and they all are bad. I did my 8th grade project of them(yea that long ago) when the CARB(California Air Resource Board) was first was experimenting when them and trying to put together legislation.

I had to start doing more research on it when my employer(an ag transportation company, hence me experience towing and no I don't have a class A license) said that they wanted more information on the new legislation so I starting going to the meetings again. They sent me because I was the mechanic and they wanted me to find out how to get around this legislation.

Before the particulate filters and still going now is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. This is like ethanol for gas engines as it reduces fuel economy. This is why around here the MPGs, gas and diesel is less then most other parts of the country. It also cause problems with older fuel systems particularly bad for old O-rings.


I'm summary we jacked this tread quite well. We both concluded that the successor to the 7.3 was "problematic" and that California has way more then it's fair share of dumb people. I we disagreed on pretty much everything else.

Oh, Your truck looks very nice LS208.

Edit: just for the record, no I don't have my ca

 

[Frogman]

If this is the class then the teacher just repeated what the student just said, added extra information to make the class longer and injected information to the conspiracy theorist to chew on.

No, the teacher corrected you in your attempt to say that the only reason the the 6.4's came out was because the 6.0 was such a "crappy" engine. You are wrong, and you were corrected.

You are correct that the state of California is primarily comprised of blind enviro wack jobs.

And yet you live there... sad... LOL

DPF are not all that new, have several designs and they all are bad. I did my 8th grade project of them(yea that long ago) when the CARB(California Air Resource Board) was first was experimenting when them and trying to put together legislation.

I know DPF's have been around since the 80's. But can you cite me any pick-up truck manufacturers that equipped DPF filters in the States, prior to 2007? Can you honestly tell me that if you asked most people who owned a diesel in 2005, what a DPF was, they knew wtf you were talking about? I know DPF systems aren't new. But they are new to the US.

I had to start doing more research on it when my employer(an ag transportation company, hence me experience towing and no I don't have a class A license) said that they wanted more information on the new legislation so I starting going to the meetings again. They sent me because I was the mechanic and they wanted me to find out how to get around this legislation.

Ok. I have a Class A CDL. Never had to go to any of your described meetings, though.

Before the particulate filters and still going now is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. This is like ethanol for gas engines as it reduces fuel economy. This is why around here the MPGs, gas and diesel is less then most other parts of the country. It also cause problems with older fuel systems particularly bad for old O-rings.

ULSD is all 15ppm throughout the whole country, not just in Kalifornia.

I'm summary we jacked this tread quite well. We both concluded that the successor to the 7.3 was "problematic" and that California has way more then it's fair share of dumb people. I we disagreed on pretty much everything else.

I never said it was "problematic". I said it had some bugs. I've got well over 160K on my 6 liter, and it's still going strong, with the changes made to it.

Edit: just for the record, no I don't have my ca

ca.... ca.... ca what?

 

[Mechanicboy]

Good job attacking those straw men you are creating. I see that no matter what proof I may bring it won't matter. Then you will attack saying I didn't bring any proof, or it was an illusion even when ford themselves admit the problem that somehow there wasn't one. It's all excuses. Change my words but put them in quotes. It doesn't matter to someone like you because you say the world is flat, then it is flat.

Attack away, I knew you will, you can't help it.

Don't worry about global warming even thought the Global temperature has actually dropped. I can't prove it because I didn't take the readings.

 

[Missing Linc']

Don't worry about global warming even thought the Global temperature has actually dropped. I can't prove it because I didn't take the readings.

You must have missed the memo about Global Warming being fake.

 

[Mechanicboy]

You must have missed the memo about Global Warming being fake.

I missed the memo maybe but I've never bought into it. Always thought it was a fad that would go away. It all boils down to money. Hopefully it'll go away soon.

 

[TDUB]

Don't worry about global warming even thought the Global temperature has actually dropped. I can't prove it because I didn't take the readings.

:slam You just opened up a whole 'nother can of worms. Congratulations, you have successfully proven your California citizenship.

 

[Frogman]

Good job attacking those straw men you are creating. I see that no matter what proof I may bring it won't matter.

And what proof do you speak of, again? I see no proof, just someone getting frustrated because he was properly explained how and why FORD did what they did.

Someone who was told by a guy who actually OWNS both motors how things have been for him in regards to their reliability, not what he's heard from his buddy's third cousin twice removed because he was a redheaded stepchild.

Then you will attack saying I didn't bring any proof, or it was an illusion even when ford themselves admit the problem that somehow there wasn't one.

Attack? WTF are you talking about? Is this your way of weaseling out of an argument when you've been proven incorrect? FORD never admitted nor denied there was a problem with the 6.0 motor. The 6.4 motor was in the works in 2003, because the 6.0 couldn't meet the tougher emissions standards coming in 2007.

Do you think that in 2004 or 5, FORD told international to make a new motor because the 6.0 was "junk" as you called it? Do you have any idea how many man hours go into engineering, developing, making and testing a new motor? This isn't Star Treck technology where the motor just materializes out of thin air.

Why did Dodge go from the ISB to the ISB CR, in 2003 and then to the B6.7 in 2007???? Surely, not because they too were junk motors?

You see a similarity here? I'm not familiar with the Duramax timeline, but I bet it's similar in them changing motors in one way or another during the same years. I wonder why that is?

It's all excuses. Change my words but put them in quotes. It doesn't matter to someone like you because you say the world is flat, then it is flat.

Silly Kalifornian, everyone knows the word is trapezoidal.

Attack away, I knew you will, you can't help it.

There you go with that attack word again... attack what?

Don't worry about global warming even thought the Global temperature has actually dropped. I can't prove it because I didn't take the readings.

Wow... talk about grasping. Proving the lack of Global Warming and what FORd did and why, are two different things. But nice try.

I've attached a handy dandy chart from the EPA with their plans for reducing emissions from diesels. See the timeline?

 

[Mechanicboy]

See, told you. You couldn't help yourself. Anything I say if just fuel for your never ending fire.

 

[Frogman]

Nope...

I think it's been shown that anything you have said, or might have to say on this subject, is wrong. Simple as that.

I also think that anyone with more than 3 brain cels who might be reading our conversation will come to the same conclusion.

 

[Mechanicboy]

I think

Yup, still haven't proven anything. Never ending Fire.

 

[Frogman]

What have you PROVEN?

That you don't know WTF you're talking about? In that case... you've succeeded .

 

[Mechanicboy]

You can't be wrong. It's O.K. The fire will keep burning.

 

[TDUB]

Yup, still haven't proven anything. Never ending Fire.

Wow dude. You act like he has attacked you personally. I've read the entire thread from front to back and all it's been is you stating your biased opinions and Frog disproving them with evidence to the contrary. At the end of the day your opinions are your opinions, no one else can make your mind up for you but don't be surprised when you state something you believe is true and someone calls you on it. Also, it usually is best not to get so uptight about bs matters, you might just learn something.

 

[Mechanicboy]

Wow dude. You act like he has attacked you personally. I've read the entire thread from front to back and all it's been is you stating your biased opinions and Frog disproving them with evidence to the contrary. At the end of the day your opinions are your opinions, no one else can make your mind up for you but don't be surprised when you state something you believe is true and someone calls you on it. Also, it usually is best not to get so uptight about bs matters, you might just learn something.

I don't see how recommending that one use a Tow/haul mode is an opinion that is wrong. He starting attacking when that was all I said.

I stated my experience. But he couldn't help but attack.

He hasn't proven anything more then I have.

Then I realized I've been here before, several times. My brother is exactly the same way as this guy. It wouldn't matter if he spoke to an engineer that helped design the engine and he said it was a bad engine, he'd still say it was a great one just because it's the one he choose. If he had simply said they he had positive experiences with he then he'd be right. My experience is they they are not reliable engine. My experience is right. Our own opinion is right to us, but not to someone like him only his is right. Mine is wrong because I disagree.

That's why I stopped dealing with it. It's a no win for me not matter what I do or say. He'll argue for days. I could to but it wouldn't get anywhere.



On a different topic TDUB, I love your quote "Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall. Torque is how much of the wall you take with you"

 

[05 LS8]

The 6.0 liters are garbage. I have one sitting in the driveway. 2005 F-550. The truck has spent a lot of time in shop. It had the gas tank replaced 3 times under 35,000 miles. The coating inside the tank kept coming off and clogging up everything all the way to the motor. Which caused :q:q:q:q loads of problems. The turbo hose claps keep braking for no reason, went through four of them already. One of the heads cracked about a year ago, which caused whole a lot of mess. The truck has 70,000 miles on it now and few months ago three of the injectors took crap. They also had to change some sensors ( can't remember what they for), because the truck kept stalling. I can keep going, just have to pull out the service records.


Its a tough truck with a big set of b@lls. As much as i like it, all the nice features it has can't be put into use, when it spends half the time in the dealership getting repaired.

 

[Frogman]

The 6.0 liters are garbage. I have one sitting in the driveway. 2005 F-550. The truck has spent a lot of time in shop. It had the gas tank replaced 3 times under 35,000 miles. The coating inside the tank kept coming off and clogging up everything all the way to the motor. Which caused :q:q:q:q loads of problems. The turbo hose claps keep braking for no reason, went through four of them already. One of the heads cracked about a year ago, which caused whole a lot of mess. The truck has 70,000 miles on it now and few months ago three of the injectors took crap. They also had to change some sensors ( can't remember what they for), because the truck kept stalling. I can keep going, just have to pull out the service records.


Its a tough truck with a big set of b@lls. As much as i like it, all the nice features it has can't be put into use, when it spends half the time in the dealership getting repaired.

You wanna sell it? Send me the VIN and your asking price.

 

[04lincolnls]

Frogman, let's see some more pictures of that f450.

 

[Lucky_Ls]

Nice trucks being posted on here and very nice trade in for your LS! I really like trucks but if I do my trade in like I'm hoping to and I don't go with another newer LS I'm probably going to go with an SUV like an Expedition.
Something about trucks though, everybody I've ever know who has a truck always gets a really close new best friend whenever it's time for them to move...

 

[05 LS8]

You wanna sell it? Send me the VIN and your asking price.

Actually i do, but not now. I have to find a replacement for it before i sell it. Once the warranty is up (in November), the truck will be gone for good. At the rate it has been braking down, i can't afford to keep the truck on the road.

 

[05 LS8]

LS208, congrats on the new truck. Good luck with it.

 

[Frogman]

Actually i do, but not now. I have to find a replacement for it before i sell it. Once the warranty is up (in November), the truck will be gone for good. At the rate it has been braking down, i can't afford to keep the truck on the road.

So then why not sell it now and get a different, more reliable truck?

Once that truck hits 100K miles, you'll lose 5 grand right off the bat when you'll try to sell it.

 

[Ls208]

haha sorry i didnt know what i was starting. thanks for all the compliments guys, im really enjoying the truck. as far as the towing goes i wont be pulling to much weight, mainly got it for the couches and a couple dressers so it wont be much of anything.

 

[Mechanicboy]

haha sorry i didnt know what i was starting. thanks for all the compliments guys, im really enjoying the truck. as far as the towing goes i wont be pulling to much weight, mainly got it for the couches and a couple dressers so it wont be much of anything.

You shouldn't have much to worry about then.

How many miles are on that truck anyway? When I buy used vehicles I always assume that they previous owner didn't perform any major maintenance so I do it to make sure that it was done. I'm glade I did this with my LS as the previous owners certainly did not perform these services.

 

[Ls208]

You shouldn't have much to worry about then.

How many miles are on that truck anyway? When I buy used vehicles I always assume that they previous owner didn't perform any major maintenance so I do it to make sure that it was done. I'm glade I did this with my LS as the previous owners certainly did not perform these services.

the truck has 65k. yea i have always changed fluids out of my cars whenever i ge tthem. havent had time to do it yet with this but i will soon. probably switch to synthetic oil before the miles get to high. hopefully next week when i get paid.