am I rich? or lean

J

jokken

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gents,

as some of you might have read in this thread
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=81354

i recently got the top of my v6 back together. after replacing the PCV valve and short hose seen in the above thread. I was trying to fix why it was running with wacky idle and misfire/sputtering

i had the injectors out and had to cut, splice, solder and replace all the injector connectors too. also replaced the COPs and spark plugs.

once the car was back together correctly it ran pretty well for a day but then it started running poorly again.

the engine often bucks and stutters under moderate to heavy acceleration. once it starts if i downshift and accelerate even heavier it'll usually snap out of it and run great. one time it almost stalled when starting to accelerate from a rolling stop. sometimes it actually runs and sounds like its in the air pump/over heating mode (no power).

sometimes when I come to a stop the car stays at whatever RPM it was at last when i pressed the clutch in, usually like 2100rpm

another strange idle characteristic is that often but not always, when in neutral idling (and doing nothing else, no stearing or AC) the idle will dip down below 1000 and then bump back up. back and forth.

these are the codes I am seeing
P0172
P0304
P0305
P0306
P0174 pending
P1130 pending
P1132 pending
P1150 pending
P1151 pending

from these codes and reading on the forum I plan to check the following

All the PCV tubing/piping shown in the engine diagram in the above thread, particularly 6A664 and where it connects to 9E499B (which connects 6A664 to the metal tube pictured above that engine diagram)

clean the MAF with CRC Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner

clean the throttle body with CRC Throttle Body and Air Intake Cleaner

use mechanics stethoscope to hear if each injector is firing. thisll probably find nothing since I can only do this at idle.

or ill replace all the PCV tubing, the MAF and the injectors... $$$ cha-ching

any other suggestions? please offer more suggestions!!

if I find anything i'll post pics.

btw: can anyone please explain these rich/lean concepts for me? and also how the MAF affects this? i am seeing codes 172 and 174 and the 1130s and 1150s which suggest I am both rich and lean?
 
ok, thanks joegr. I will double check the gap. The manual says 0.51 to 0.57 on the v6.

the gapper I have has a 0.54 setting. the plugs were all basically at this exact size 0.54 out of the box (but maybe I messed up putting one/some in).
 
could this be my problem or part of it?

resonator.jpg


this is on the intake tube between the air filter box and the throttle body
this was almost completely off and then tore off completely when I bent it a little.

i didnt even know what this device was for, just learned about it.

seems like a legit explanation:
http://www.ehow.com/info_12156112_air-intake-resonator-do.html
crazy stuff....
 
jokken said:
could this be my problem or part of it?

resonator.jpg


this is on the intake tube between the air filter box and the throttle body
this was almost completely off and then tore off completely when I bent it a little.

i didnt even know what this device was for, just learned about it.

seems like a legit explanation:
http://www.ehow.com/info_12156112_air-intake-resonator-do.html
crazy stuff....
Click to expand...

ABSOLUTELY!! Unmetered air is getting into the engine and the PCM doesn't know it's there.
 
wow cool. i really hope this is most of the problem. I cant wait to change this out. I cant remember how long it has been since the LS has run correctly. almost a year. i wonder if I can plug this hole until the part comes in?
 
Yeah, all that is that's broken off is the intake resonator which quiets the engine revs. I've seen a members cut those off and patch the whole with a bit of plastic and an epoxy.
 
plastic weld

use a soldering pen and melt the plastic back together, if its poly, it works great. look up plastic welding on youtube to see how its done.:D
 
Duct tape works too, if you just need it to work right now and want to do something with it later.
 
haha duct tape is awesome stuff, so is that silver aluminum tape used for duct work too (similar stuff)

tireman, wish I would have seen your post earlier I would of done that, it woulda worked better. but i cut of that excess plastic and plugged the 'flat' hole

and it is running a loooot better now! thanks.

im not sure if im still letting in some air though, there is still a bit of hesitation here and there. tasca was able to get me the part to replace it (the whole tube). 79+10 shipping. waiting for it in the mail. maybe ill just keep it in storage (like to keep it original) and do a new pipe and K&N,etc like i see some of you guys have done.

what is it like a 5hp gain?
 
jokken said:
haha duct tape is awesome stuff, so is that silver aluminum tape used for duct work too (similar stuff)

tireman, wish I would have seen your post earlier I would of done that, it woulda worked better. but i cut of that excess plastic and plugged the 'flat' hole

and it is running a loooot better now! thanks.

im not sure if im still letting in some air though, there is still a bit of hesitation here and there. tasca was able to get me the part to replace it (the whole tube). 79+10 shipping. waiting for it in the mail. maybe ill just keep it in storage (like to keep it original) and do a new pipe and K&N,etc like i see some of you guys have done.

what is it like a 5hp gain?
Click to expand...

If even that. It's mainly a mod you do for the extra V8 growl. It really wakes up the sound of the engine.
 
hi guys, happy new year!

i'm still stuggling with this issue with my LS. have not driven it much through the holidays.

the problem is, often when I try or change something the car runs good for an hour or so...

I changed out the intake tube (tasca) so the resonator is now replaced, so no more unexpected air post MAF. and a new O2 temp sensor came with it

cleaned the MAF with CRC MAF cleaner and it ran good, even great! for 1 hour of spiritied driving

I was excited until it started bogging out again a slow speeds or dropping quick and picking up quick again at highway speeds.

I really cleaned the MAF alot, no change, and then replaced the MAF, no change. <bummed out>

i checked the spark plugs gap and the coils, they are new and they looked good. although the car ran good, but only for a time, after I put the coil and plugs back.

cleaned the throttle body with CRC TB cleaner. it was pretty clean already, no change.

describing the issue to my mechanic (who is often pretty brilliant) he suggested fuel pressure sensor. I thought it was easy enough to try (im a hack, I throw, guesses, money and parts at a problem). But I am not finding the FPSs anywhere! seems like none exist anymore from Ford, SMP, BWD, or Airtex. my mechianic has one of the more advanced scanners, so I really need to have him debug using that thing.

my question is: how often are fuel pressure sensors bad on the V6s? i don't see much posted about them on this forum. but with no availability does that mean, none were needed really, or that they were all needed/purchased?

SMP FPS8
BWD FPS508
Ford XW4Z-9F972-AA

also, does anyone know the differences between these and say SMP FPS7 or Ford 3R3Z-9F972-AA, etc?

my codes right now are
p0172
p0304
p0305
p0306
the 4,5 and 6 misfires always happen, everytime I clear the codes those 3 come back. It was only one time I saw a 1,2,3 misfire.

i guess I should try to disconnect the battery overnight and try again.
 
Are you sure the coils are connected TIGHTLY to the connectors? Do you hear a "click" when you connect the coils to the harness?
 
Did you mess with the coil connectors? Could they be wired backwards?
Are your connections to the injectors good?
 
i will check these things. thanks guys. I will unplug and plug the coils and make sure they click in.

on the drivers side (cyl 4,5,6) the coil connectors wired backwards is a possibility. it looks strange. the middle of that wire cluster has a longer connector that i'm almost sure must go to the further coil and the end of the wire cluster has a shorter connector that im almost sure goes to the middle coil. seems backwards but the connections are more logical this way when considering the direction the coil end points and the length of the wires.

the injector connections are suspect too since I had to solder on new tips

how about my questions about the fps, i guess the fps idea is unlikely? thx!
 
Injector test. 2 people. 1 starts engine keeps it running. Other removes 1 injector connector @ a time. Engine should react to disconnected injector. If an injector connector is removed and the engine doesn't change, something bad with injector or connector. 4,5,6 easy to get 2. You can also test the injectors resistance with a mutimeter (digital volt meter). Research this info. Normally 18-23 ohms. Maybe someone has this spec & can provide. There is also a voltage test for the connector. Maybe someone can provide this also. Being a former electronic tech I would suspect injector connector wiring wiring, so doing this ohms & voltage check should validate your soldering of all the injector connectors. Maybe joegr can help with specs, smart man!
 
You can buy Super Seal Spray-On DUCT TAPE in a 8.5 oz can @ NAPA. Says use on metal, rubber plastic, for automotive use. Other stores may also carry it. FYI
 
just a little update on this. I've been out of commission for a few months, snowboarding injury, tore my rotator cuff off. needed surgery. mostly recovered now though, but still have a few months of physical therapy.

this LS is still running bad. The injectors checked out and replacing the fps didn't help. I also brought it to a dealer for two weeks, they said they suspected the problem to be in/around the fuel rail. one bank running rich and the other bank running lean. in the end they couldn't pinpoint it though, something about not having a cable to hook a sensor to their debug laptop. they said in order to get this cable they'd have to but a $15000 kit. who knows...!! they didn't charge me...

spoke to my mechanic about it a few times. ran the car with his scanner, the fuel pressure never drops significantly even though it was dropping/bogging out and then running good, etc.

did a smoke test. the only place I saw some little smoke escaping was near the EGR/IAC/TPS. mechanic told me it wasn't enough to make the car run the way it does. im not so sure yet. the machine ran out of "smoke" so that kinda stopped us looking at that more.

He decided to have me drive it a for 2 days with the O2 sensors unplugged (still in pipe). the car ran like a dream then!!! I was all smiles then. but I replaced all 4 O2 sensors. the car immediately went back to bogging out and cutting out and just having slow throttle response often

so the issue has to be with something (sensor/reading) that is ignored or defaulted when the O2 sensor reading is missing.

i've replaced the MAF/IAT and MAP (i replaced the MAP when it came with the new intake tube that goes between the air filter box and the throttle body). should I try replacing these again? how about throttle issues? (ive cleaned the throttle body and replaced the IAC and TPS) LOL!!! (ive replaced waaaay to much)

I guess it could still be a leak somewhere causing the car to intake a lot more air than MAF knows about.. since without the o2s I am probably getting plenty of fuel to compensate for that, right?

mechanic says it must be electrical. the way the car cuts out and then bucks back into life on the highway it must be a sensor, etc (air leak would be a more regular misfire or bad behavior)

two other interesting things I noticed. the car has this cool intake growl when it is running badly and a get on the gas. also when I clear all the codes the car runs better for awhile, like the computer compensates for a problem once the codes reappear, but make the symptoms worse.
 
You rewired the injectors, yes? I would say that some injectors are cross wired between the banks. While the LS is a sequential fire, that doesn't mean much at speed. Cross wired injectors will still work, it would just be more like a batch fire which would fire all the injectors at once, or fire one bank then the other. This costs power and fuel efficiency which is why we now do sequential, but it works.

The problem comes in when the O2 sensors start trying to adjust fuel. Batch injectors didn't matter as they used one O2 sensor for tuning, but sequential uses one for each bank. So, say we go lean a bit on Bank One on one fire. The computer sees that and richens the injectors on Bank One. But, as a couple of injectors are cross wired, it will actually richen up both Bank One and Bank Two. Now the Bank Two shows too rich, and sends a signal to lean Bank Two. Wrong injector gets leaned out, and it builds on itself until one bank gives an error for too lean and the other gives an error for too rich. Unplugging the O2 sensors will cause the computer to use the open loop fuel/air map instead of the measured fuel/air mix, which is why it runs fine with the O2 sensors unplugged.

I'd have your mechanic verify that the injectors are wired correctly, since you yourself are now broken.
 
what is the status of coils? plugs?
last time you cleaned the maf? throttle body?
last time fuel filter changed? last bottle of injector cleaner?

cleaning/replacing all of the above will do you no harm. if plugs and coils are less than 50k miles and from a semi-reputable brand you can probably skip those...
 
Telco said:
You rewired the injectors, yes? I would say that some injectors are cross wired between the banks. ... I'd have your mechanic verify that the injectors are wired correctly, since you yourself are now broken.
Click to expand...

so after all that

jokken = stupid
Telco = awesome!

the LS is running right again!

so that was it, thanks Telco! Since I am mostly mended I was able to check the injectors myself. And you nailed it, at least cylinders 2 and 5 were crossed. I'm not sure about the other 2 sets. But, I got the wire colors of each injector connector from my mechanics alldata program and made sure they all went back in the right places.

Using the wire colors for a guide I put 1, 2 and 3 little scratches (l, ll, lll) on the injectors connectors for cyl 1,2 and 3. (the three injectors on the passager side front to back). Then I verified the other 3 injectors at the same positions on the wire harness (but on the drivers side) were the right colors for cyl 4,5,6. I didn't scratch these since the position and lack of scratches idfentified them enough.

2 wires per injector connector:
Injector wires for cyl 1 -> Brown/White and Green/White
Injector wires for cyl 2 -> Brown and Green/Yellow
Injector wires for cyl 3 -> Brown/Red and Green/Blue
Injector wires for cyl 4 -> Brown/Blue and Green/Red
Injector wires for cyl 5 -> Brown/Green and Green/Black
Injector wires for cyl 6 -> Brown/Yellow and Green Orange

Cylinder Order:

Back of engine
Pass Side Driv Side
3 D------|------D 6
2 D------|------D 5
1 D------|------D 4
Front of car

Dashes are the fuel injectors wiring harness, cyl 1/4 and cyl 2/5 and cyl 3/6 are at the same positions on the wiring harness

And,
Firing Order 1,4,2,5,3,6
Since 2 and 5 are close in the firing order I'm assuming that is why the car idled fine and kinda drove OK at times?
 
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