Already Expensive Crank but No Start Issue/Help Needed

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Robb15033

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2001 LS 3.9L
Drove car to the grocery store, returned and car would not start. Cranks but will not start. Car was running fine, other than AdvanceTrak kicking in constantly due to snowy conditions.
It has been at Ford for seven days now. Bill is approaching $900 now with no solutions to issue.
No codes.
New battery and back up jumper box
I verified all the fuses and relays were good under hood, trunk, kick plate panel. The inertia switch not activated.
Fuel pump pressure verified.
Crank position sensor replaced.
Ford conducted initial compression test, Now wants to pull plugs and perform that compression test as well, at a high rate $$.
~From experience here, can you please provide some insight as to what has happened to fellow LS owners with a crank but no start issue, or some advice as to How To Proceed, PLEASE. Thank You,
-Robb
 
Well, my first questions would be are the coils being fired and are the injectors being pulsed?
Why was the CPS replaced? No signal, or bad signal level? Was it traced all the way back to the PCM?
No codes, or no connection to the PCM?
Gasoline smell at the exhaust? Any ignition (attempts to run) at all?
What exactly was the compression test result? Both banks even? Highest and lowest readings?

What have they done for $900 so far?
 
Robb15033 said:
2001 LS 3.9L
Drove car to the grocery store, returned and car would not start. Cranks but will not start. Car was running fine, other than AdvanceTrak kicking in constantly due to snowy conditions.
It has been at Ford for seven days now. Bill is approaching $900 now with no solutions to issue.
No codes.
New battery and back up jumper box
I verified all the fuses and relays were good under hood, trunk, kick plate panel. The inertia switch not activated.
Fuel pump pressure verified.
Crank position sensor replaced.
Ford conducted initial compression test, Now wants to pull plugs and perform that compression test as well, at a high rate $$.
~From experience here, can you please provide some insight as to what has happened to fellow LS owners with a crank but no start issue, or some advice as to How To Proceed, PLEASE. Thank You,
-Robb
Click to expand...
How long ago did you replace the spark plugs? Have you taken the plugs out to see if they look fouled? I would check to make sure they don't smell like straight up gasoline if they do I would almost be willing to bet it's your fuel injectors. Also if you were getting no codes why did you replace the stuff that you did?
 
joegr said:
Well, my first questions would be are the coils being fired and are the injectors being pulsed?
Why was the CPS replaced? No signal, or bad signal level? Was it traced all the way back to the PCM?
No codes, or no connection to the PCM?
Gasoline smell at the exhaust? Any ignition (attempts to run) at all?
What exactly was the compression test result? Both banks even? Highest and lowest readings?

What have they done for $900 so far?
Click to expand...
Thank You.
I've never had to take a vehicle to the dealer before. I'm not a technician but I;m mechanically inclined. The fact that expensive compression testing is the first thing conducted for a no-start, really through me for a loop. I am not familure with any compression testing so I will try mt best to help you help me.
-The initial compression test resulted as "inconclusive" with an error result with the "throttle circuit", "high resistance" within throttle circuit.
After that testing the bill was around $400.00
-I asked if they could move forward by replacing the crank sensor (Hoping it was most likely cause, -my choice). They replaced it with no change. Said they verified fuel pressure. Said that it could be possible engine failure. (It was running perfect when I shut off the car at the grocery store, if that matters)
From there, I was at $600.00 total (NOT $900, sorry).
Today they wanted to perform a mechanical compression test pulling the spark plugs. (which would be a total of $900.00)
-From what I observed looking at the car, there is no activation of coils. No spark. I do not know if injectors are being pulsed.
-No codes yet at all.
I feel helpless with this in their hands.
Should I let them carry on with their testing? Is their protocall the most efficient, logical steps to follow?
Thank You so much
 
A compression test via measuring starter current is nearly useless on the 3.9, and shouldn't cost $100 more than the min service charge. Like I said, I would start with verification that the coils and injectors are being pulsed and that the PCM is communicating. If the answers there are yes, then a mechanical compression test would be the best next step, since it is a 1st gen V8. If you never updated the timing chain tensioners, then there is a very good possibility that this is the problem. Did you ever hear the chains slapping the valve covers immediately after startup?
I think you could have found a good independent to do the compression test for less than $300. You could buy the tools to do it yourself for way less.
 
DaleGrib said:
How long ago did you replace the spark plugs? Have you taken the plugs out to see if they look fouled? I would check to make sure they don't smell like straight up gasoline if they do I would almost be willing to bet it's your fuel injectors. Also if you were getting no codes why did you replace the stuff that you did?
Click to expand...
-The spark plugs are two months old. The car is now in their hands, I can't ask the tech questions in real time or touch it. It has run perfect since I bought it. Never has thrown a code. Performed a tune up, I also installed a new alternator and battery when i bought it.
-I asked them to replace the crank sensor just hoping it was the most likely cause and somewhat cheaper course of action.
-My car was stuck in a busy parking lot, not starting. I had practically no tools on me, it was 3 degrees and I was cold and stranded. So I walked to parts store and purchased one each of the relays I found being used under the hood and in the trunk so I could swap them around to help alleviate some second guessing & to verify I had good fuses and relays within the starting circuits and fuel pump circuits. I had a 12V probe tool in trunk and checked all the fuses under hood, trunk, and passenger kick plate.
- It is a no-start condition..... And they are having difficulty completing the initial compression testing, practically condemning the engine by the sound of it trying to crank over. They want to pull the plugs and perform a compression test.
-I am REALLY flustered because I am not familiar with expensive compression testing as a first check when I have had cars not starting while in my back yard to try and repair myself. Air - Fuel - Spark is what I am accustomed to verifying though I do not work at Ford or have their testing equipment. Honestly, I would be throwing parts at it to try and fix it. Reading previous threads from Lincoln LS owners, and replacing the top one or two items causing the exact same symptoms. Not a professional approach but it usually works on something usually simple as a "No-Start" when the car has run flawlessly right up to the last time i turned off the ignition.
Thanks, appreciate it
 
joegr said:
A compression test via measuring starter current is nearly useless on the 3.9, and shouldn't cost $100 more than the min service charge. Like I said, I would start with verification that the coils and injectors are being pulsed and that the PCM is communicating. If the answers there are yes, then a mechanical compression test would be the best next step, since it is a 1st gen V8. If you never updated the timing chain tensioners, then there is a very good possibility that this is the problem. Did you ever hear the chains slapping the valve covers immediately after startup?
I think you could have found a good independent to do the compression test for less than $300. You could buy the tools to do it yourself for way less.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
No, no tapping noise or slapping noise ever experienced from the engine cold or hot.
i do not believe the timing chain tensioners were ever updated.
-I made the mistake of thinking that FORD would be the most efficient way to repair a No-Start condition at the time. It is a 20 year old model car that should have produced all the common break downs associated with the car since its production and FORD should be most familiar with this engine and its failures.
-The pressure is on me because i am not wealthy and the rental car is expensive as shit. LS is my only form of transportation right now unfortunately.
--What is your opinion~ Move forward as you said and have verification of the coils, injectors and PCM function, followed by compression testing?
--Or tow it home and try myself without compression testing tools?
-***-What does your gut tell you the problem is based on all the previous no-start conditions youve studied with the same scenario I have.
i appreciate your time.
 
Robb15033 said:
Thanks.
No, no tapping noise or slapping noise ever experienced from the engine cold or hot.
i do not believe the timing chain tensioners were ever updated.
-I made the mistake of thinking that FORD would be the most efficient way to repair a No-Start condition at the time. It is a 20 year old model car that should have produced all the common break downs associated with the car since its production and FORD should be most familiar with this engine and its failures.
-The pressure is on me because i am not wealthy and the rental car is expensive as shit. LS is my only form of transportation right now unfortunately.
--What is your opinion~ Move forward as you said and have verification of the coils, injectors and PCM function, followed by compression testing?
--Or tow it home and try myself without compression testing tools?
-***-What does your gut tell you the problem is based on all the previous no-start conditions youve studied with the same scenario I have.
i appreciate your time.
Click to expand...
“It is a 20 year old model car that should have produced all the common break downs associated with the car since its production and FORD should be most familiar with this engine and its failures.”

I couldn’t agree more with this single statement!
 
Robb15033 said:
Thanks.
No, no tapping noise or slapping noise ever experienced from the engine cold or hot.
i do not believe the timing chain tensioners were ever updated.
-I made the mistake of thinking that FORD would be the most efficient way to repair a No-Start condition at the time. It is a 20 year old model car that should have produced all the common break downs associated with the car since its production and FORD should be most familiar with this engine and its failures.
-The pressure is on me because i am not wealthy and the rental car is expensive as shit. LS is my only form of transportation right now unfortunately.
--What is your opinion~ Move forward as you said and have verification of the coils, injectors and PCM function, followed by compression testing?
--Or tow it home and try myself without compression testing tools?
-***-What does your gut tell you the problem is based on all the previous no-start conditions youve studied with the same scenario I have.
i appreciate your time.
Click to expand...
You said you checked every fuse? The COP’s fuse was good in the engine compartment fuse box?
 
You left out the part about the sound it was making when trying to start. Now, it's even more likely that it has jumped time or broken a chain.
Why do you say compression testing is expensive? It's one of the cheapest tests you can do.

The LS is more Jaguar than Ford. They never sold very many, and few dealer mechanics became experienced with them. Almost no one brings in an LS or T-bird to a Ford/Lincoln dealer any more. I would not expect them to know much about them.
 
If I were you I would get the car home some how and try to talk to the manager at the ford place and complain like hell if they are charging you as much as you say and they can't even tell you what is wrong with your car. If you do decide to pay I would highly advise paying with a Visa card or mastercard or something so you can dispute the charges later. I am not one for screwing people over but if the dealership has got you roped in that far and no answers I would be hard pressed to pay that bill. I would get the car home and take the valve covers off and check to see what the upper tensioners look like and also to see if the cams are still lined up.
 
joegr said:
You left out the part about the sound it was making when trying to start. Now, it's even more likely that it has jumped time or broken a chain.
Why do you say compression testing is expensive? It's one of the cheapest tests you can do.

The LS is more Jaguar than Ford. They never sold very many, and few dealer mechanics became experienced with them. Almost no one brings in an LS or T-bird to a Ford/Lincoln dealer any more. I would not expect them to know much about them.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was told that the mechanic said the engine sound when cranking was suspect. I heard it too & I didn't hear anything funky.
I didn't consider the fact that an LS doesn't show up much at all anymore. But, I believe no matter what the test is to diagnose a no-start condition, it shouldn't be such a long, drawn out procedure, and just cut to the chase... Think outside the box and do the research within their own records or pick up the phone.
Original diagnostic test/compression test was #300. Another test through cylinders is $290. Im going over to talk to someone tomorrow and figure this out
I'm just frustrated. Time is a wasting. I love the car.
 
DaleGrib said:
If I were you I would get the car home some how and try to talk to the manager at the ford place and complain like hell if they are charging you as much as you say and they can't even tell you what is wrong with your car. If you do decide to pay I would highly advise paying with a Visa card or mastercard or something so you can dispute the charges later. I am not one for screwing people over but if the dealership has got you roped in that far and no answers I would be hard pressed to pay that bill. I would get the car home and take the valve covers off and check to see what the upper tensioners look like and also to see if the cams are still lined up.
Click to expand...
Thanks-
Tomorrow I'm going down to talk shop and figure this out logically.
I'm going to get a copy of the testing results and the charges while I'm there to reference while game planning.
-If they can't find a reasonable way to proceed, I will definitely tow it home.
-Something is preventing the "spark to fuel' process from happening.
I will check the chain tensioners and cam before giving up on it. No noise from the engine when I parked and turned it off. I hope for the best, prepping for the worst.
 
You need three things for combustion: Fuel, spark, compression.

You can spray starting fluid into the intake while cranking. If that makes no change, then it's not a fuel problem.

You can easily check if the coils are firing, though it is harder to tell if they are firing at the right time. That said, even if at the wrong time you will at least get some backfires.

A compression test is easy to do. Remove the coil covers. Unbolt the coils. Remove the spark plugs. Remove the fuses for the COPs and the fuel injectors. Press or screw (depends on which kind you have) the compression gauge adapter into each spark plug hole and crank the engine over. Record the reading for each cylinder and do a little math.
 
On a side note, do you happen to have an anti-theft system on your car, and if you do is the siren connected? I only ask because I've had a similar experience (with a different car) where the anti-theft caused a no-start but the previous owner only partially disconnected the system so no alarm went off. The system was actually armed by somebody else using their clicker to turn off their alarm, but somehow activated mine while I was in the supermarket. Never happened before or since but figured I'd throw the idea out there anyway
 
joegr said:
...

The LS is more Jaguar than Ford. They never sold very many, and few dealer mechanics became experienced with them. Almost no one brings in an LS or T-bird to a Ford/Lincoln dealer any more. I would not expect them to know much about them.
Click to expand...

Yea, I learned my lesson the hard way with that. The Lincoln "techs" were trying to find my LS's transmission fill under the hood >.<
 
Last edited:
SORRY FOR UPDATE DELAY!
-Lincoln miserably failed compression testing.
Timing chain(s) failure. Engine failure.
I love that car. Breaks my heart.
~Thank you everyone for their help and patients with me.
 
So, while their charges were way too high, they were wanting to run the correct test first after all.
 
joegr said:
So, while their charges were way too high, they were wanting to run the correct test first after all.
Click to expand...
YES, They were.
Lesson learned. I was wrong
I was being difficult, apologized, and thatked them after sqqqqqqqquaring up on my $1120.00 invoice.
I was in shock. Not a single indication when I turned her off. I have assisted people with their car not starting what seems like at least a hundred times. I was in denial and disappointed.
I really loved that car. it made me happy.
 
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