6spd TT Nitro LS

[SPSully]

OK so its no secret to ILLS that I plan on working off of his turbo build. This thread is based off my ideas and the knowledge that a few of the members of this site have. It is a means to get a ILLS, Cammerfe, myself and who ever else has some good hard info and or ideas to communicate and figure out how to make what I believe will be the pinnacle of LS performance. The key here is to maintain the drivability of the car. All modifications will be made with lots of planning prior to and erring on the safe side then slowly adding to it from there. I also plan on keeping this car a sleeper and show ready through out the build.

Here is what I have decided after much research in various places (Rob our convos count HUGELY towards this research... thanks a million! I will keep some of the info secret for your business' sake)

1. The LS can with minor modification be made to support a newer mustang standard transmission, and from there any transmission you want really.

2. With proper tuning and internals, the LS should easily be capable of 600rwhp based off of a turbo.

3. If one turbo spools 8psi easily, then 2 should spool 16 equally as fast. of course sizing needs to be taken into consideration.

What I am currently working on is a staged build of my 01V8 Sport.

Stage 1:
Nitrous. I have the kit and the tuner. I plan on Nitrousing it here soon. I'm working on the hiding of the kit itself. With 100 shot for starters, I plan on needing to work on traction. I will accomplish this with a 8.8" carrier. With the turbo(s) lurking in the near future, it would be pointless to replace the 8" with and 8.8 just to maintain the MAX gearing of 3.55. This stage will also yield a set of drag wheels with Mickey Thompson ET Street drag radials. At this point the car should be pulling low 13's - mid 12's. A custom cold air intake is being used to deliver the N2O to the throttle body. Fuel system mods for the turbo set up are being made to the car during this stage with proper tuning for larger than a 100 shot can be used at that point. May also do some minor drive train work to dig her out of the hole a little easier.

Stage 2:
So long Nitrous... HELLO TURBO!!! I'll be running a rear mount turbo similar to ILLS build. However with all the piping being designed by me and fabricated by me and who ever wants free beer that night, I expect there to be some differences in the overall lay out and hopefully the ground clearance. With the traction issues from the nitrous solved prior to turbo charging, she should take the new found power with the utmost of grace. I plan on using an electronic boost controller to control my boost level since I will only run 4-5 PSI on a daily basis and bump it up a bit for the track.

Stage 3:
This is where major upgrades come in to play. Billet internals to include rods, pistons, and crank will be installed and any honing of cylinder walls that is needed will be done. I may get a spare block to work on for easier access to the block. The end goal is having a bottom end that will be able to withstand 15-20 PSI. I doubt I'll ever get to a full 20, but the need for strength is fueled by my love for this car and not wanting to pop the motor like a zit. I will need to upgrade further my fuel system to handle the increase of boost, and as always retune accordingly. Using come rough rule of thumb math 16 psi should yield about 300-320rwhp over stock so about 500-550.

The 6spd is going to involve some modification and possibly effect the piping of the turbo, so the odds are that the 6spd will be added during the Stage 3 changes while the motor is out of the car .

Stage 4:
This is definitely an R&D stage for the build. I'll be adding in a second turbo and re-piping the entire thing for the utmost of efficiency. With two turbos and still only so much exhaust to power them, the proper sizing will be needed. The only gain from this stage is slightly faster spooling and the prestige of saying I have a TT LS. At 16psi she will be too fast for the track anyway, so from here on out, its a matter of safely building the car I want. It is very likely the piping will all be changed out for stainless at this point since its the final piping. The longevity of the stainless as well as the ability to polish and show it off are what I'm going for here.

Stage 5:
This is the stage that is almost entirely for show since by now I'll need a roll cage to be legal at the track and with a four door and a luxury car, that isn't going happen. This will be the reintroduction of the Nitrous. I'm not exactly sure how yet. It is possible that I'll blow some nitrous across the intercooler and call it a day. Wont see huge gains from it, but it will be their and like I said it will pretty much just be fore show at this point. There is a mild chance that someone will want to challenge me while on the highway, but with roughly 600rwhp, 6 speeds and all of it ready at the push of the pedal I doubt the nitrous will be needed even then.

 

[Garbone]

Ok, You have big goals for your LS...sounds like fun stuff.
My only comment is, whether you have a roll cage, or not, there are some serious frame, and body stiffening that will be necessary for that much HP. I hope you take that into account.
Also, I have my doubts about everything from the rear chunk, out to the hubs. 500-550RWHP, in my opinion, would have enough energy to rip the suspension up pretty good.

Anyway, good luck with your plans. What are your time goals?

 

[ILLS]

Ok, You have big goals for your LS...sounds like fun stuff.
My only comment is, whether you have a roll cage, or not, there are some serious frame, and body stiffening that will be necessary for that much HP. I hope you take that into account.
Also, I have my doubts about everything from the rear chunk, out to the hubs. 500-550RWHP, in my opinion, would have enough energy to rip the suspension up pretty good.

Anyway, good luck with your plans. What are your time goals?

These chassis are 350% more torsionally rigid than the old SN-95 Mustang frames. They can take a good amount of power before twisting. Allot of later model cars have much better frames that can take some serious power before needing stiffening.

The rear end is not a dead end. If need be once he moves up in power he can always do a 31 spline center IRS section along with some custom CV shafts from someone like The Driveshaft Shop. The stocker hubs will withstand the power, especially on a turbo vehicle unless he is really launching that thing off the line. the hubs are one of the last items to upgrade due to the CV shafts usually being the weakest link even in upgraded form. The IRS frame itself will take the power no problem. There are MUCH weaker links that get stressed much more than the IRS frame itself.

Good feedback though. Allot of the items you mention do still play a factor in high horsepower cars.

 

[cammerfe]

Comments on a serious project

First, my congratulations on your plan! There's nothing I read there that isn't completely do-able. But you have bitten off a large mouthful. Some thoughts--

First, do you know of the availability of a suitable stick bell housing? (I don't, unless a 6 cyl. piece will fit. And a potential problem is that a rev-happy engine such as a 32-valve V-8 should really have a scattershield.

Second, it strikes me that building all the plumbing for a single turbo and then re-doing everything and buying two more turbos is a rather pricy approach. I've already owned three turbo'd cars and worked on many others, and can jump from my existing experience to twins. With help from ILLS, (and I'm happy to give input), if you intend to go with two, I suggest you start there.

The most important single factor in designing any turbo engine is creating efficiency. Although you must interpolate to get there, the 'boost' in the combustion chamber is the important thing. Actually, boost in the intake tract is a result of a lack of free flow from there on out of the engine. The number you read on the gauge is a function of how everything is working, but an efficient layout making 10 pounds may well make more power than 20 pounds in a non-efficient arrangement.

Anyway, it'll sure be fun. Let's see where we get to!!
KenS from Ben's Place

 

[SPSully]

Ok, You have big goals for your LS...sounds like fun stuff.
My only comment is, whether you have a roll cage, or not, there are some serious frame, and body stiffening that will be necessary for that much HP. I hope you take that into account.
Also, I have my doubts about everything from the rear chunk, out to the hubs. 500-550RWHP, in my opinion, would have enough energy to rip the suspension up pretty good.

Anyway, good luck with your plans. What are your time goals?

I was on the phone with ILLS today and he and I discussed the 31 spline idea. Its a no brainer and I left it out of my thoughts and my post, but it definately something that will be needed when you start talking about sending 500+ ponies to the wheels. As far as stiffening, these cars are already pretty stiff, thats where the handling attributes come from so I'm not that worried at this moment in time. Worst case sinereo I have to make some modifications down the road. I can always beef up the frame and do some under the skin of the car work. I HIGHLY doubt that a full on cage will ever be needed.

These chassis are 350% more torsionally rigid than the old SN-95 Mustang frames. They can take a good amount of power before twisting. Allot of later model cars have much better frames that can take some serious power before needing stiffening.

The rear end is not a dead end. If need be once he moves up in power he can always do a 31 spline center IRS section along with some custom CV shafts from someone like The Driveshaft Shop. The stocker hubs will withstand the power, especially on a turbo vehicle unless he is really launching that thing off the line. the hubs are one of the last items to upgrade due to the CV shafts usually being the weakest link even in upgraded form. The IRS frame itself will take the power no problem. There are MUCH weaker links that get stressed much more than the IRS frame itself.

Good feedback though. Allot of the items you mention do still play a factor in high horsepower cars.

You and I think too much alike. its starting to scare me!

First, my congratulations on your plan! There's nothing I read there that isn't completely do-able. But you have bitten off a large mouthful. Some thoughts--

First, do you know of the availability of a suitable stick bell housing? (I don't, unless a 6 cyl. piece will fit. And a potential problem is that a rev-happy engine such as a 32-valve V-8 should really have a scattershield.

Second, it strikes me that building all the plumbing for a single turbo and then re-doing everything and buying two more turbos is a rather pricy approach. I've already owned three turbo'd cars and worked on many others, and can jump from my existing experience to twins. With help from ILLS, (and I'm happy to give input), if you intend to go with two, I suggest you start there.

The most important single factor in designing any turbo engine is creating efficiency. Although you must interpolate to get there, the 'boost' in the combustion chamber is the important thing. Actually, boost in the intake tract is a result of a lack of free flow from there on out of the engine. The number you read on the gauge is a function of how everything is working, but an efficient layout making 10 pounds may well make more power than 20 pounds in a non-efficient arrangement.

Anyway, it'll sure be fun. Let's see where we get to!!
KenS from Ben's Place

I havent looked into specific parts availabilty for it just yet. That is something that will get worked on and looked into. My "ace in the hole" is that I have a very good buddy from the navy who is the lead fabricator at an armored car factory. I'm positive he can assist if need be.

As far as two turbos first and not staged like I plan... Good and bad idea. The way I see it, that turbo can be resold either to a fellow LS owner or to some ricer who wants a bigger snail. I just think that the cost effectiveness of a twin turbo sytem that isnt needed will just offest and delay the actual power building. When I get the TT setup I'm not gonna make any more power. The internals and what not are FAR more of a priority to me. A single turbo sized like ILLS has will make the power I'm looking for, so to fab some piping and then have to refab later is a non issue in the big picture as far how my priorities are laid out for this. I do agree only having to do it once is easier, but this isnt a work job, its a fun job.



Some other things are not mentioned but will get worked over like my intake manifold for example. The way I see it, once you get this much work into a car, anything not done just looks lazy. So eventually I'll have stainless instead of aluminum, things will be polished and powder coated. For right now though, I am bone stock right down to the Fram air filter. I have to set priorities, make a plan of attack and go from there. And money for the upper stages will come from prior stages being done. For example, my locker for the 28 spline, I can resell after to offest the cost of the 31 spline. I agree with you Ken, that the cheapest and easiest way to go about it would be to go for the high end right off. But practicality of getting this project on the road before the end of the season becomes almost none. My goal is to be done with stage 2 by the end of July. I think looking at my finances and the time frame, that's a realistic goal.

 

[revolutionaryconcepts]

Grats on creatin a plan for your tt beamer killer!!!! at least some of us still have high hopes, nothing to stop you really except money lol if you've got that then its all down hill from here, like I say to all my customers "speed cost money.... so JUST how fast do you wanna go?" if you need anything ANYTHING built let me know!! one thought tho

1. bottom end...

I read most of your post but what about the bottom end? Yes they are blueprinted rotating assemblies and YES they are ford'd jag engines however your going to be putting roughly 300% of the factory tolerances on that bottom end, I would be worried about block failure if I were you, however dont let that stop ya man go fer it!!!! No guts no Glory!!

 

[SoonerLS]

I don't know if the bolt pattern is the same, but, given the common AJ-family heritage between their mills and ours, the S-Type R would be a logical place to start in your quest for a bellhousing. It would also be a good idea to see what Jaguar and Aston Martin did to the bottom ends of their AJs to get them to handle the power.

 

[cammerfe]

I wasn't aware that the S Type R was available with a manual trans. On the other hand, the Jag lower end is almost the same---consisting of a ladder-type girdle one-piece main bearing casting and then a cast sump w/sheet metal pan on the front. The greatest difference is that the oil filter location is on the passenger side instead of in the front. The Aston Martin uses a dry-sump oiling system. Due to the virtual unavailability of such parts here in the US, I'm in process of re-doing the sump and fitting an Aviaid external pump and scavenge unit.
KS

 

[SoonerLS]

I wasn't aware that the S Type R was available with a manual trans.

Yeah, scratch that; my memory was faulty. They used a 5-speed manual in the S-Type, but the R got a ZF 6-speed slushbox.

 

[SPSully]

Grats on creatin a plan for your tt beamer killer!!!! at least some of us still have high hopes, nothing to stop you really except money lol if you've got that then its all down hill from here, like I say to all my customers "speed cost money.... so JUST how fast do you wanna go?" if you need anything ANYTHING built let me know!! one thought tho

1. bottom end...

I read most of your post but what about the bottom end? Yes they are blueprinted rotating assemblies and YES they are ford'd jag engines however your going to be putting roughly 300% of the factory tolerances on that bottom end, I would be worried about block failure if I were you, however dont let that stop ya man go fer it!!!! No guts no Glory!!

Well, I havent taken any measurements for sure on the block. I am pretty confident that she will hold up to the power. This isnt a mid engine, but based off what the stangs are doing I'd say the block SHOULD be stout enough to hold less than 600 horses. That is definately something to look into when I get my new block and have it honed/bored. I dont want to bore any more than absolutely nessecary since I'm not making power with displacement... Im making it with boost. The old saying was "there is no replacement for cubic inches." That is so not true. "Its not the size of the cylinder, its how you blow it!" But im side tracking myself. I need to really get some measurments once the new block is back from the machine shop (I have to get one still and send it to the shop for that to happen) The huge upside to building a new motor is I can set my entire drive train in place on stands to make sure it all bolts up right. My poor LS is going to look so wierd sitting on the lift with no engine, tranny, rear end, nothing!


It's hard for me to focus on stage 1 and 2 with so many things looming in stage three that need to be answered, but my new drivetrain mods are ordered. VERY soon, I'll be replaceing the XCAL 2 with a SCT Livewire unit and new SCT MAF compliments of KBX Performance. I have a pile of things that need to be installed, but dyno time is hard to come by and with the nature of the mods, she will need a tune almost immediately inorder to run. I have my MAF coming soon, new fuel pump, injectors as soon as I can find a reasonable price on a set. That all HAS to be done last minute before the dyno and then she gets a ride on a flat bed. The drive train mods I want to do all at once so I dont have to take it apart twice. I re-fabricated my cold air intake piping this weekend to leave closer to 6" between the first bend and the throttle body for the N2O nozzle to fit. I got her welded up ince a purdy like and then ground down to a nice smooth finish. She's cleaned up and getting ready to get sprayed. I want to use that insulating spray (jet hot coating i think its called someone help me out here) just to maitain the utmost of cold inside the pipe itself. Its not that important now, but I plan on running this pipe down to my intercooler when the turbo comes and with boost..... the colder you can get it the safer. After talking with ILLS about the FMIC its more than enough for the smaller PSI and even the higher PSI, but I want to err on the safe side.

I have a dyno tune appointment on the 6th, but it has to be pushed back a little bit since I cant get my MAF and injectors in on time for that date. And honestly it would be foolish to do it twice. I'll be sure to post pictures and updates as they happen!

 

[revolutionaryconcepts]

Grats man movin right along! Dont let me scare ya the only reason I brought up block failure is that i've seen far too many cobras get flat-beaded into my shop with the intake mani and oil pan bein the only thing holding the blocks together, granted I personally think that these blocks are stronger based on the ladder frame design but never know when your talkin about that much tortional strain, Good luck man keep us posted, you need anything made let me know p.m.

 

[MMAFIGHTER121]

man i can't even afford a CAI...
GL!!

 

[02LincLS]

they'e all great ideas but i woud seriously consider picking one just one path and a end result 1/4mile time or HP number. with dedication and wads of cash, stage 4 is attainable.

i went with nitrous for my daily driver and its a perfect fit. no other real mods needed for 100hp and 125 with a fuel pump. (coming near the end of this year). its a lot less work and money to get that power vs turbo/ SC. of course if this isnt your primary car, then its nice to ALWAYS have the power on tap and not fill bottles.

if i were to somehow have vastly deeper pockets, i would keep going and lose the powdered rods, and go the roots blower route. Just add more boost until something breaks like the tranny or halfshafts and just fix it as you go.

i totaly agree about the drivability. these are such comfortable, attractive, nice handling cars and most of us just want as much power as possible without losing the balance.
i'll be happy just to get a fuel pump though, i'm getting married, going on a honeymoon, and looking to buy a house all within a year (hence buying the nitrous now ) and lets not forget how expensive mini-me's are

good luck- oh and i think im still on for NED this friday. will try to plan for test and tune sometime and hopefully we can get more LS guys up there

 

[ILLS]

Grats man movin right along! Dont let me scare ya the only reason I brought up block failure is that i've seen far too many cobras get flat-beaded into my shop with the intake mani and oil pan bein the only thing holding the blocks together, granted I personally think that these blocks are stronger based on the ladder frame design but never know when your talkin about that much tortional strain, Good luck man keep us posted, you need anything made let me know p.m.

That is not block failure on those 4.6 Cobra's you observed. That would be internal failure that in turn punched a hole in the block and cracked it. The 4.6 block whether it is the cast iron one, Teksid aluminum, or WAP aluminum will withstand over 1,000hp with a forged/billet rotating assembly.

 

[ILLS]

they'e all great ideas but i woud seriously consider picking one just one path and a end result 1/4mile time or HP number. with dedication and wads of cash, stage 4 is attainable.

The "staged" or "phased" approach to larger projects is actually a good way to approach something of this nature. I use the phased approach on my personal project race vehicle. The reason for this is because the extensive amount of modifications that need to be performed would take a very very very long time to perform all at once. The other main reason is finances. I think Sean still has the same goal in mind in the end but it is nice to have subgoals to reach so that you have a good comparison to ensure you are on track.

 

[SPSully]

The "staged" or "phased" approach to larger projects is actually a good way to approach something of this nature. I use the phased approach on my personal project race vehicle. The reason for this is because the extensive amount of modifications that need to be performed would take a very very very long time to perform all at once. The other main reason is finances. I think Sean still has the same goal in mind in the end but it is nice to have subgoals to reach so that you have a good comparison to ensure you are on track.

True to a point... I didnt make little goals or check points because I was trying to be smart about it... I'm greedy selfish and impatient... I want power and I want it NOW HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah the stages make so the build requires as little down time as possible, then minimizing rework, then maximizing resale of used parts for later work. If I wanted to I could throw the money at her for everything, but she'd be down for a while. I love the Mark VIII and all, but I'd go nuts without the LS for as long as it would take for me and my buddies to do a motor swp with internals, tranny swap, new drive train, fab up twin turbos, run a nitrous set up, then make it all run. Then once she ran she'd have to get trailored to the dyno to be tuned for the better part of a day before she was road worthy. WAY too much down time. With the stages I'll have less to tune all at once, each project will be a day to a week long. That is FAR BETTER than the months it would take me to do it all.

As she sits, she is not track ready. She needs some maint love. Ball joints, VCG, are getting done with my drivetrain hopefully this weekend if the parts get in. Either way I have a VERY busy couple of weekends. The fuel system, N2O kit, drive train and general maint should all be done here very shortly. With that done, most if not all of stage 1 will complete except for the wheels and tires. I need to figure out what that coating is called and spray my intake. I was going to steal Jason's heat shield idea, but I just bent my intake down to where the FMIC is going to come out and I'll cover the filter with a water sock. Should be sucking in some nice cold air!!!

 

[02LincLS]

True to a point... I didnt make little goals or check points because I was trying to be smart about it... I'm greedy selfish and impatient... I want power and I want it NOW HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

exactly! perhaps i'm on the same "phased" path and i just dont know it yet
add the supercharger and keep the nitrous on to cool it when at the track. power is great, but i love neck snapping torque (obviously the LS wasnt quite designed for that).

 

[SPSully]

honestly, SC's are something I cant get into. Nitrous and Turbo technology has made MASSIVE leaps in the past 10 years or so and SC's havent kept up. I'll take a well sized and tuned turbo over any SC out there!


And I'll be at the track tonight for street night. I may take the Mark out, but probably just take the LS and watch.

251 295 0657 if you go call or text me

 

[SPSully]

update for everyone.

I installed my nitrous system this week as well as loaded a tune. I got the tune from KBX Performance friday. Let me tell you, it woke the car up a TON! I didnt expect to get that much responce from just a tune. I cant wait to get the new Fuel Injectors (found a set for cheep) fuel pump and MAF sensor in. She probably wont make any more power from it, but she'll be ready for more power. It is at that point very likely I'll bump up the nitrous a bit. We shall see. I'll do the same thing I did with this level of juice, and test it, data log it, and adjust accordingly.

Tomorrow, if the rain holds out, I'll be heading to the track to test out both the tune and then nitrous. I dont have a nitrous controller installed, so I expect to rip out of the hole harder and probably lose traction easier. There is some good and some bad to running based soley off the WOT, but I want to see what I get from her before I go adjusting the set up. I ran a 15.4 with the 20"s in stock form. I want to get a couple good passes with just the tune and still running the 20"s then move on to nitrous pulls. I'm thinking that with the 20"s slowing me down a bit, and the controler not helping me launch, but having some big fat 275's on the back... I'll be happy to see about a 13.5-13.8. Anything better obviously will be nice and anything less will make me spend some SERIOUS time looking at slips and trying to see what my issues are. I will be sure to report my findings from the track asap! Maybe some vids will be posted. I know I'm gonna want them for evaluation of the cars performance. Posting depends on how well I do!

 

[SPSully]

No track today... rain fowled my plans. Now I'll have to redo the electrical on the N2O system since I cut a corner to save some work and make it ready faster. I should have a my locker installed before I get to the track again, so traction problems should be greatly reduced.

 

[dudeinthething]

Can not wait to see status, pics, etc. One question for all of you. All most all mods that I read about on here are Gen 1 engines. Why is no one using the Gen 2 motors? Is it because of the throttle by wire, or the VCT, or the ecm?
Thanks and good luck. Cannot wait. Finally someone with the cash and the no how to make something like this happen.

 

[SPSully]

Why is no one using the Gen 2 motors?

ummmmm funny you mention that. I see it the otherway around. ILLS has a thread about his turbo build on his 05. Other than 02LS...... im the only one doing any serious work to a 1st gen that I know of. A few people are running a 100 shot, but thats about it. The LS performance world is pretty much uncharted except for a few people who are just crazy enough to make this work. CammerFE races land speed. ILLS is a tuner with a hard on for sleepers. Me on the other hand, I have built a truck, a stang, a civic, a classic stang.... this is kind of a culmination of all those builds in one SEXY project.

On a side note, I pulled the nitrous bottle out of the trunk and spray painted her so she would be all one color. Looks much better. I drove her down to a mustang show that turned out to be a Mustang / Ford show and took 9 out of 150-200 cars. So the build for street strip and show is owning most anything in the street and show categories. I just need to find track time to see what she gets. On a dyno while tuning the nitrous she put 305 to the rear wheels. Not bad really. I figure the 1st gens are good for 215-220 stock, with a 100 shot, to come out to 305rwhp is about where I expected to be. OK enough yammering... pics!

If you look at the engine bay picture, you'll see my CAI isnt installed yet. That was me being sneaky for the track. I wanted people to really deficate bricks when they looked and saw how "stock she is" And even with the engine cover off, NOT A SINGLE PERSON could tell I was juiced until they looked in the trunk!!!!!!! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

 

[cammerfe]

Trophy Time

Good looking trophy! Is your bottle fastened to the spare lid? (I've put mine crossways just behind the seat back and reach it by folding the seat down. But then I haven't re-done the trunk to make the cover fit.)

KenS from Ben's Place

 

[SPSully]

Nope! I removed the spare (thank god for AAA) and the post that holds it down. The bottle is fastened directly to the sheet metal housing for the spare. I have to lift the lid for anyone to see it. The bolts stuck out like a sore thumb looking at the car from behind so I cut em down a bit and painted them too! HAHAHAHA

Here is most of the lown down on hidden N20. I probably should keep this to myself, but oh well.

The bottle is in the spare as you can see. The nitrous line hides with the brake lines under the car. The solenoids are in the plastic housing for the air conditioner filter, the fuel line is taken from the fuel rail with a rubber hose (more to it than that) and everything is covered in wire loom. I'll get some just engine bay pics and let you guys see how it is hidden.

 

[02LincLS]

yeah, i thought i used up all my luck never getting a flat in the 7 years i had my thunderbird so i left the spare in the LS and built a speaker box. of course, there wasnt much space to put a bottle. with this setup i can take everything out when i go to the track, but still keep my spare tire the rest of the time. (wow i really need some wire loom around those wires!)