2004 lse maf problem

[LSE8]

hey, i have recently bought an 04 lse.. engine light is on, code was read and im told that it comes back as the maf sensor... thought I had one kicken however turns out the 2000 ls (which I've had a couple) and the 2004 have a slightly different set up under the hood, (both v8s) so some of my spare parts don't seem compatible.. no big deal. my question is, is it safe to pull the plug on the maf while running to see if much of a difference, will it run me more issues doing so? I was going to test the female for voltage but no idea which wire to attach my pos. and do I do it with the car off key on, and plugged in or not? also how often is cleaning the maf sensor a solution to this issue. coils were all just replaced aswell.. any advice will be much appreciated. thanks

 

[joegr]

With the key off, unplug the MAF. Then start the engine. This test, of course, won't really accomplish anything.
What is the exact (five character) code that you are getting? There are no codes that absolutely say the MAF is bad. Often "MAF" codes are triggered because of air (vacuum) leaks.

 

[LSE8]

iam not positive what the exact code was as it wasn't documented. I was just told that the maf sensor needed to be replaced.. however that is not always the case and I know that much.. the person who had scanned it could be trying to just make a buck knowing it may very well be a vacume leak & easily fixed, and charge me with a maf replace, also very easy repair but of course... more $

I like to do most of my own repairs anyways for the simple fact of saving my money.. the car runs good, just slight rough idle sometimes, and even a FailSafe start earlier today... I will have it rescanned 2mor0 by a more trusted source and post the code 2mor0.

Thanks for your input

 

[LSE8]

okay, a few more details outlining the issue im having..
so when I start the car its typically starts and runs decent with a small bit of rough idle. Nothing overly insane. The coil packs were all replaced (few months) prior to me purchasing the vehicle. The other day I started it and she fell into fail safe engine mode, and with a load (in gear) rpms were jumping.. I turned it off, restarted it and no problem. Iam showing an engine light which to my understanding (thru 3rd party) was a MAF issue. When I go to accelerate from a stop the vehicle is hesitant. no it doesn't wanna quit running or do anything extremely weird but its almost like a late response, approx. 1.5 sec(no rpm reving nothing until it wants to go).. when it goes, she goes. Both my 2000 Ls's didn't do this, and im just curious if the throttle on an 04 lse is set up differently or if this late response(again about 1.5 secs) is something common when there is MAF sensor failure... any help is greatly appreciated..

p.s I haven't yet got the computer scanned again so I kno with no codes to share, this could be a variety of things, but maybe someone could help narrow it down with the provided info. thanks again

 

[joegr]

Really need the codes to help.
ETC failsafe has nothing to do with the MAF. It could be the throttle, ABS module, or a few other things, but it is almost always a marginal COP. (The LS has Coil-On-Plug, not coil packs.) Did you use new OEM coils or aftermarket? Did you replace all the spark plugs at exactly the same time as the coils? Did you verify the gaps were all set at 1.0mm? (I know they are supposed to be pre-gap'd, but usually one or two are wrong.)
LSE has nothing do with anything but appearance.
The gen II throttle is electronic, and it nothing like the gen I mechanical throttle. In gear, there should be no delay in throttle response. Delayed response is often a transmission problem.

 

[LSE8]

the coils were replaced with ebay specials lol.. and ive heard that usually those aftermarket coils do have issues.. not sure if the plugs have been replaced or not, but im assuming the previous owner would have replaced them. I think im just gonna get my guy to shoot over and scan the comp, so can stop playing the guessing game cos that wont get me anywhere lol..

 

[joegr]

9 times out of 10, the PCM will not detect marginal coils and will not set any code for those.
False ETC codes are often set by the RFI from marginal coils.
You can be certain of the coil problem when you have to replace your $thousands catalytic converters in a few months. In my view, the risk/reward ratio on cheap coils is just too much.

 

[LSE8]

So I had the car re-scoped and here are the 2 codes its throwing
1- P2106 TAC System Forced Limited Power
2- p0108 MAP/BP Sensor Circuit High Input

What could cause these? They sound linked to 1 problem.. Thanks

 

[joegr]

...1- P2106 TAC System Forced Limited Power
...

This is a consequence of a problem (or false problem detection) with the Electronic Throttle Control system.
Most of the time, this is caused by EMI from marginal COPs. I see no reason to continue talking about this. If you don't believe it, you don't believe it.

...2- p0108 MAP/BP Sensor Circuit High Input

What could cause these? They sound linked to 1 problem.. Thanks

This is the EGR valve assembly. It could be the vacuum hoses going to it, but so far, it always seems that the valve assembly itself has to be replaced. If you are wise, you will also order the vacuum hose assembly that connects to it and to the fuel pressure sensor. Those hard line vacuum tubes get baked and brittle over time. If yours has gotten brittle, it will crumble if you even look at it wrong. I've posted the part numbers for the EGR valve and vacuum hoses on here before.

No, I don't think that the two codes are related to any single cause.

 

[LSE8]

I Appreciate the Positive Input on your behalf.

 

[RigsLS]

9 times out of 10, the PCM will not detect marginal coils and will not set any code for those...

Joe, we've covered this before, it CAN throw a code under WOT load, it'll flash and be gone as soon as it's within tolerance again.
I recall explaining how I was getting a misfire flashing CEL that I had to read on the fly to catch the code. Yes it didn't retain it for long but it did/does/can throw a misfire code.

I presume by your thinking, it's the 1 out of the 10, that I had happen, soon as it returned within tolerance coming off of a WOT it clears it, does not retain it. I'm convinced the 1st GEN is very capable of flashing a misfire code, mine had P0302 Cylinder 2 misfire detected.

 

[joegr]

I guess Canadian English is different than English in the rest of the world.
I never ever said it couldn't. I did say that most of the time it won't. I feel justified with that statement. I am trying to dispel the belief that some have that no code means it's not misfiring. Just trying to save some converters.

 

[LSE8]

Ive been able to disagnose a dead coil pretty easily on my first gen.. however I don't think any of mine are dead.. Its unfortionate you can buy brand new coils, regardless of the brand, and still have a flaw in one or 2 of them... Chance you buy another set and same issue... I would much rather narrow it down to the marginal coil(s) and replace it(them)..

BigRig, are you saying that with a scope plugged in, while under load (driving) may catch the marginal coil? Theres not a chance in hell im buying 8 new coils again.

 

[joegr]

Coil stress test: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...l-8yB-zM69m1YLtl4GXz-Ug&bvm=bv.84607526,d.eXY

 

[RigsLS]

I guess Canadian English is different than English in the rest of the world.

No need to get ignorant Big Guy!

BigRig, are you saying that with a scope plugged in, while under load (driving) may catch the marginal coil? ...

Depends on whether you are doing a Canadian stress test or rest of the world test!


Joe is very much correct in the fact that a marginal failing coil will 90% of the time not throw a code under normal driving conditions, HOWEVER it's my experience (without using a scope) that when one knows/feels, there is a misfire happening under load, at WOT it will present it's self as a FLASHING CEL on the cluster, which in the same drive cycle gets cleared soon as it reads that the ignition is within tolerance again. (not under load)

It does not store a code, there will be nothing to read afterwards, now should you have a OBDII reader plugged in and go out and run the car through a series of hard WOT pulls, if it begins to flash on the dash, it will present a code on your reader. By the time (minute down the road driving normally) when it understand it's returned to within acceptable limits of it's allowable tolerance, it will have already cleared the code.


The bottom line is that the LS eats coils like crazy, all those cheaper coils are just garbage and will fail sooner rather then later, it's advised to replace all 8 coils with OEM Motorcraft coils, NGK Iridium plugs which need to be gaped to 1.0mm (.039) ... all at the same time. If you do one here and there by it's self, it's just a matter of you needing to replace yet another coil a little while later. When they get old and burned out they usually all go around the same time, thus replacing all of them at the same time, although costly, provides a fresh start.

No oil/water in the wells and you should be good to go.

EDIT: connector clips need double checking of course, making sure they click into place and are seated correctly.

 

[LSE8]

Well lets suppose everything checks out and its not a coil... Replace them all again and the issue persist... What else could through that code? Because I kno the codes aren't made up out of thin air, and sometimes what they say is what the actual problem is (apposed to tricking the computer) .. Like I understand exactly what you and Joe have been saying, it does make sense. but think of this, your arm is aching and you go to the doctor and he diagnoses it saying oh its your leg your nerves are tricking you... so u believe him? and discussion over... this could very well be, but that's not the end of the diagnoses when your curing the wrong problem, which could be... When the problem is solved, that's when I think that topic is over.. this is not a stab at anyone in general, or a lack of better judgment, its an opinion which could very well be right, or wrong... All input and advice is greatly appreciated always, I value all the help I can get... But ignorance because of ones beliefs or because u may know more then another... come on.... We ask questions to learn, and we are thankful for the answers.

 

[joegr]

P0108 is the MAP, which is in the EGR valve assembly.
P2106 just says that the PCM put the engine into ETC failsafe limited power mode. You need one or two other codes to know what the PCM believed was the problem. Apparently, those already cleared. Usually, there would be a code for a problem with the throttle body or the gas pedal for it to trigger limited power mode. I've heard of a few bad throttle bodies on the 03s (back when they were much newer, that's all weeded out by now I suspect).

I said I wouldn't discuss this anymore, and I guess I lied. BTW, I tried to help one guy who wouldn't believe it was coils and neither would the dealer he was using. Both were sure it was the throttle body. He got a used one and put it on. Same problem after a few days. So, dealer talked him into a new throttle body installed by them. Same problem after a few days. Dealer insisted that it much be the PCM. He got a used PCM and had the dealer put it in. Same problem after a few days. Dealer talked him into a brand new PCM. Same problem after a few days. Now, after spending thousands of dollars, do you want to guess was the solution was? (BTW, he couldn't feel any misfires and there were no stored misfire codes. There probably weren't even any actual misfires, but there was RFI coming from a certain something.) Maybe you are the exception to this, but then again maybe you aren't. I don't know. I can only help with the experiences that I've had.

Are your questions answered?

 

[05LSV8GUY]

I'm convinced the 1st GEN is very capable of flashing a misfire code, mine had P0302 Cylinder 2 misfire detected.

I wonder if this changed for the 2nd Gen

Misfire of #2 also throws another code, referring to a short in the signal wire, atleast it did with mine, after swapping the coil and clearing the code all was good.
I have read multiple places that cyl #2 misfiring on fords will always trip that additional code. If that is true or false, mine did.

Joegr, I suppose even attempting a cleaning of the EGR would be fruitless? Thinking about this makes me long for the days of slapping on an egr block off plate, and firing it back up and driving away LOL Damn Computer crap lol

 

[joegr]

...Joegr, I suppose even attempting a cleaning of the EGR would be fruitless? Thinking about this makes me long for the days of slapping on an egr block off plate, and firing it back up and driving away LOL Damn Computer crap lol

For one of the flow codes, it might be. However, P0108 usually seems to be an electrical problem.

 

[jwct7]

Have to agree with JoeGr. I replaced all the coils on my V6 only to "feel" a slight problem again. Didn't want to mess up the cat again so i went straight to Auto Zone and bought another COP. Turns out #2 was the culprit. And on the V6 the air intake has to come off. Slight PITA but job done.
Listen to advice people......