2002 LS Starting spinning but not engaging engine

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jmeecer

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Hi all
To make a long story short, I went out Monday morning to start my car and go to work. Car started but died almost immediately. Tried to restart the car but it sounded like just the starter was spinning but not engaging the engine's flexplate. So, I immediately thought that the starter solenoid was not working properly. Took starter out and replaced it this morning. Went to start the car again after replacing the starter, same issue, starter spinning but will not engage flexplate. I can turn the engine over by hand with a ratchet. So, the engine is not locked up. Thought about the anti-thief, so looked in the owner manual and it said to turn the key 4 time from off to run, did that, no change. My question is is there something I am missing, so anti-thief problem? I am not a professional mechanic if that makes a difference, but pretty good DIYer. I believe this problem maybe over my head. Any suggestions or should I call the dealership and have them come and pickup the car (will have to be towed since it will not start) and have them fix the problem. Battery does not appear to be the issue either, took it out and it started my truck. Car is 2002 LS Lincoln with V8 and automatic transmission. Built Sept 2001 I think.
 
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It's not PATS (anti-theft).
Assuming that your description is correct and that the starter is installed correctly, then the most likely problem would be that the flex plate is broken. I assumed that you tried the starter again after turning the engine by hand? If so, that should eliminate it just being some of the teeth ground off of the flex plate. I am also assuming that you have a clear view of the front damper while someone is trying the starter. You need to verify that not only is the pulley not turning, but that it inner part (with the bolt head) isn't turning either. I think that it is really unlikely that your crankshaft is broken, but that would be the other way this could happen.
 
When I turned the engine over by hand the flexplate also turned. I stuck my hand in the starter hole and could feel and see the flexplate turn and I did not see any bad teeth. When I turned the engine by hand, the belt and the other accessories turned, power steering pump, alt, ac. etc. Did I get a bad starter?
 
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When my wife get home, I will have her try to start the car and I will watch to see what turns if anything.
 
Well, that would seem to narrow it down to the starter or its installation, assuming that the crank really isn't turning. (I throw that in because one or two others were sure it wasn't turning based on the sound, but it turned out that it really was.)
 
Thanks for your reply Joegr.
Wife got home, had her try to start it. I verified that the engine was tuning over NOW. Cranked it about 10 seconds with the gas pedal to the floor and it finally started. I really do not what the hell is going on. I did have the old started checked at Advance Auto and it was bad. I guess the sound of this new starter is different or I have a short on the solenoid side. I feel like an idiot. Thanks for you help, greatly appreciated, Joegr.
 
jmeecer said:
Thanks for your reply Joegr.
Wife got home, had her try to start it. I verified that the engine was tuning over NOW. Cranked it about 10 seconds with the gas pedal to the floor and it finally started. I really do not what the hell is going on. I did have the old started checked at Advance Auto and it was bad. I guess the sound of this new starter is different or I have a short on the solenoid side. I feel like an idiot. Thanks for you help, greatly appreciated, Joegr.
Click to expand...
Have you changed your fuel filter ever...could be fuel related issue ...pump could be going out or fuel filter needs replacement
 
jmeecer said:
Cranked it about 10 seconds with the gas pedal to the floor and it finally started.
Click to expand...

this would indicate that the engine was flooded. the the gas pedal is pressed WOT, the PCM cuts off the fuel injectors from spraying any fuel into the engine. so if the engine started with no fuel being sprayed into it, then it must have had a lot from the last time it was attempted to be started.
 
1LoudLS said:
this would indicate that the engine was flooded. the the gas pedal is pressed WOT, the PCM cuts off the fuel injectors from spraying any fuel into the engine. so if the engine started with no fuel being sprayed into it, then it must have had a lot from the last time it was attempted to be started.
Click to expand...
I agree 100% the car was flooded but I’m interested in knowing was it a operator error or is there something wrong with the fuel system ... trying to turn it over too many times will lead to flooding ...but glad you got it started, keep us posted on the status...all my best
 
Been three weeks, still no issues. I guess when the original starter went out, I was still trying to turn the engine over using the ignition key trying to figure out if the starter was the issue or the solenoid. After I put the new starter on, I guess the car was still flooded from trying to determine which part failed.
 
The engine being flooded was caused by repeatedly turning the key off and on.
When the key is turned on the fuel pump and injectors automatically prime the engine for 1-3 seconds to give the engine fuel to initially start on.
After the engine starts by burning the prime off then the fuel system takes over and the engine is supplied with constant fuel to keep the engine running.
Multiple on/off key cycles,without starting the engine, will load the cylinders in a fuel injected engine.
 
MadProfessor said:
The engine being flooded was caused by repeatedly turning the key off and on.
When the key is turned on the fuel pump and injectors automatically prime the engine for 1-3 seconds to give the engine fuel to initially start on.
After the engine starts by burning the prime off then the fuel system takes over and the engine is supplied with constant fuel to keep the engine running.
Multiple on/off key cycles,without starting the engine, will load the cylinders in a fuel injected engine.
Click to expand...

Sorry, no.
No fuel is injected without the engine turning. You can toggle the key from off to run a hundred times, and no fuel will be injected, engine won't be flooded.

What does happen, is when you actually engage the starter, fuel is injected, and on a cold engine for the first minute or so, extra fuel is injected (cold engine enrichment) because not all of it vaporizes. If the engine runs for several minutes, it burns off the extra (condensed or unvaporized) fuel. On the other hand, if you shut it down too soon, some fuel will remain in the cylinders. When you restart a while later, that fuel is still there, along with the extra that it is now injecting. This can cause the engine to flood, especially it you repeat it a few times.
You may notice yours running poorly for a few seconds after you restart it when you just moved it out of the garage and shut it down. This is the extra fuel nearly flooding it. AFAIK, this is normal for pretty much all cars.

Incidentally, there are fairly strict requirements that no injector ever open without the crankshaft rotating. It's actually a safety requirement. Beyond that, we have sequential fuel injection (like pretty much all engines now), so an injector would only open when the intake valve was open. The PCM has no way of knowing which valve(s) are open without the crankshaft making at least to full revolutions (needed to sync up with the cam position sensor). I know that at one time (maybe still) GM had a delay of several revolutions before they would start to inject fuel. This was to try and get a little oil circulating before the engine started.
 
joegr said:
Sorry, no.
No fuel is injected without the engine turning. You can toggle the key from off to run a hundred times, and no fuel will be injected, engine won't be flooded.

What does happen, is when you actually engage the starter, fuel is injected, and on a cold engine for the first minute or so, extra fuel is injected (cold engine enrichment) because not all of it vaporizes. If the engine runs for several minutes, it burns off the extra (condensed or unvaporized) fuel. On the other hand, if you shut it down too soon, some fuel will remain in the cylinders. When you restart a while later, that fuel is still there, along with the extra that it is now injecting. This can cause the engine to flood, especially it you repeat it a few times.
You may notice yours running poorly for a few seconds after you restart it when you just moved it out of the garage and shut it down. This is the extra fuel nearly flooding it. AFAIK, this is normal for pretty much all cars.

Incidentally, there are fairly strict requirements that no injector ever open without the crankshaft rotating. It's actually a safety requirement. Beyond that, we have sequential fuel injection (like pretty much all engines now), so an injector would only open when the intake valve was open. The PCM has no way of knowing which valve(s) are open without the crankshaft making at least to full revolutions (needed to sync up with the cam position sensor). I know that at one time (maybe still) GM had a delay of several revolutions before they would start to inject fuel. This was to try and get a little oil circulating before the engine started.
Click to expand...
Great info Joegr... This explains the fuel system almost in its in entirety when starting a car ...you just explained some start up questions I had in the back of my mind...you're absolutely right the second time you start the LS it cranks a few times unlike the first initial start when it pops right off after about one crank ....Thanks again for the info
 
You're right joegr...
I don' know why I was thinking the injectors fired to prime the engine when turning the ignition on.
I was thinking about the fuel pump pressurizing the fuel rail when turning the key.
I stand corrected.....

Something does have me puzzled though.....
If the engine wasn't turning when the OP was trying to start the car then how was the engine flooded?
I can only think of two scenarios that would explain this.
1. The engine was actually turning without him realizing it and therefore the injectors were loading the cylinders.
2. The fuel pump was pressurizing the fuel rail every time he turned the key on. Even though the fuel rail has a return line,if any of the injectors are weak then fuel will seep past them and load the cylinders.

Thoughts......
 
Re-read post 13, I explained how/why it flooded.
 
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