Those troublesome Jews

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Those troublesome Jews
Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.

letters@ charleskrauthammer.com
 
Helen Thomas Apologizes for Saying Jews Should 'Get the Hell Out of Palestine'
Published June 04, 2010
| FOXNews.com

Veteran White House reporter Helen Thomas has issued an apology after saying in an interview that Jews should “get the hell out of Palestine.”

Thomas, a longtime White House correspondent who now writes a column for Hearst newspapers, made the comments May 27 after a White House Jewish heritage event.

Asked by Rabbi David Nesenoff of RabbiLive.com if she had “any comments on Israel,” Thomas replied, “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.”

Thomas went on to say that the Palestinian people “are occupied and it’s their land” and that Israelis should “go home” -- to Poland, Germany, America “and everywhere else.”

In a written statement issued Friday, Thomas apologized, saying, “I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians.”

She said the comments “do not reflect” her “heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance.”

“May that day come soon,” she added.
 
Helen is the Liberal/Progressive Wicked Witch of the West. What she said is what she believes. She's just a nasty, with no redeeming social or moral value.

Chas. Krauthammer, as usual, put his finger squarely on the facts. His analysis is cogent and succinct.
KS
 
Helen is the Liberal/Progressive Wicked Witch of the West. What she said is what she believes. She's just a nasty, with no redeeming social or moral value.

Chas. Krauthammer, as usual, put his finger squarely on the facts. His analysis is cogent and succinct.
KS

IDK if I can totally agree with that. What Krauthammer doesn't realize is that Israel is nearly as bad as everyone else in the middle east, only difference is that they are very much our ally. Really if it were up to me, most of the middle east, including the holy land would be having a biblical experience, and I am not talking about the kind people talk about at their parole hearings, I mean wrath of god type stuff. Whole area is full of nutjobs and cokeheads.
 
TO "Find' and 'Worm'---
Thanks for your posts. They're just what you've led me to expect from the likes of you.
KS

---------------------------------------------------

"Some people around here are either trolls or nitwits"

--Ralph Furd--
 
Israel's peculiar position

This article was first published in the LA Times in June 1968 by Eric Hoffer, a Non-Jew

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese - and no one says a word about refugees.

But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab.

Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.

Other nations when they are defeated survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on.

There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general.

I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.

Eric Hoffer, 1968 June.​
 
I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.

Eric Hoffer, 1968 June

How prescient !
KS
 
hrmwrm, you have reduced yourself to a troll because you refuse to even consider opposing views; instead looking to dismiss them while spouting the rhetoric you by which you do not understand and take, ultimately on faith. Yet you hypocritically chastise any Christian for accepting things on faith.

Don't get angry because people recognize you as the troll you are.
 
That's just an absurd statement.

Considering the crap Israel does pull sometimes. Whole region should be reduced to scorched earth.

Sure, Israel is justified in some of the crap they do, but yeah, if you think they are innocent, then you haven't heard the full story. Israel screaming Hamas or something the like every time they launch a missile I would equate to a black man charging a KKK rally swinging a chainsaw yelling, "self-defense."

Israel likes to bully its neighbors and pull the tough guy act just as much as their crazy muslim neighbors.

I would think that good things would have come out of the area if a more moderate choice than Hamas was elected into office, but oh well, can't have everything. You have a group of people that hate Israel, many of those people for very good reason. Of course they are going to elect the group who is willing to voice their anger. Not everyone in Palestine is Hamas, not everyone in Palestine wants to exterminate the Jews, not everyone in Palestine engages in anti-Israeli acts. Israel, in its zeal to defend themselves against the minority that presents a threat to them, oppresses and hurts the majority. They are manufacturing enemies every day in a region full of people who are more than willing to train Jihadists and future Martyrs.

TO "Find' and 'Worm'---
Thanks for your posts. They're just what you've led me to expect from the likes of you.
KS

---------------------------------------------------

"Some people around here are either trolls or nitwits"

--Ralph Furd--

Really? What do you actually know about Israel? Ever been there? Do you REALLY know much about what has gone on in that area, or do you just get your information from one slanted cable news source or another? Sure, Israel needs to defend itself, and they are a hated bunch in the region. But, they are not innocent either. But then again, anyone who disagrees is a troll or nitwit right? Insults are the first resort of the weak-minded of course.
 
Hey 'find' and 'worm' too---I'm not Jewish and I've never been there. But I have been studying, from a political standpoint, the dynamics of the region since before either of you boys were born. And, as seems usual, Chas. Krauthammer has nailed the situation with the comments spelled out above.
KS
 
Sure, Israel is justified in some of the crap they do, but yeah, if you think they are innocent, then you haven't heard the full story.

The highlighted portion is ultimately all that matters. No one is saying Israel is innocent (they have to get their hands bloody to defend themselves), but they are not the aggressors here. The people surrounding them, by and large, don't view the state of Israel as having any legitimate right to exist (hoping and working toward it's destruction in many ways) and many Europeans (and like minded here in America; mainly running in elite circles in academia, politics and media) are boarderline anti-semetic; a prime example being Helen Thomas.

There is a lot of disinformation concerning Israel often from left leaning historical revisionists like Howard Zinn.

The line that Israel is "guilty until proven guilty" can not be said enough. Most actions of the State of Israel would be perfectly acceptable from any other nation. Israel is held to an absurd unrealistic standard and then demonized when they fail to meet it.
 
The highlighted portion is ultimately all that matters. No one is saying Israel is innocent (they have to get their hands bloody to defend themselves), but they are not the aggressors here.

They are OFTEN the aggressors, well, often enough that I don't put them on a much higher level than most of the other countries in the area.
 
Hey 'find' and 'worm' too---I'm not Jewish and I've never been there. But I have been studying, from a political standpoint, the dynamics of the region since before either of you boys were born. And, as seems usual, Chas. Krauthammer has nailed the situation with the comments spelled out above.
KS

Really? WOW. You just pwned me.:rolleyes:
 
They are OFTEN the aggressors, well, often enough that I don't put them on a much higher level than most of the other countries in the area.

Examples?

They are only the "aggressors" in the "best defense is a good offense" sense. Their actions are ultimately defensive. However, they have to be preemptive at times in that defense.
 
Examples?

They are only the "aggressors" in the "best defense is a good offense" sense. Their actions are ultimately defensive. However, they have to be preemptive at times in that defense.

Strange you would support that considering you claim an originalist approach to constitutional law. Preemptive justice?

Israel always has a "justification", they always say they are preventing these groups from attacking, or producing weapons. How much of it you choose to buy into is up to you really. But, think of how much trouble Israel causes for the civilian population using their heavy-handed approach.

Every time Israel does ANYTHING, they just feed the world "intelligence" about terrorist suspects, weapons manufacturing, or anything like that. Not to say they don't get intelligence in those regards, but their intelligence is often times nothing more than the gut feeling of an informant. Other times, they are reacting to an anti-Israeli group gaining the capability to begin to mobilize and construct weapons. The average Palestinian feels constant oppression from Israel, so they are angry. Israel fights with its muslim neighbors because they hate Israel. Its muslim neighbors just end up hating them more because Israel is fighting them. It is an endless cycle.

Israel can be REALLY heavy handed at times honestly. Just look at the way they used to handle Nazi war criminals living in countries without extradition laws.

Paraphrasing what I said earlier, many times Israels "justifications" I would equate to a black man charging a KKK rally swinging a chainsaw yelling, "self-defense"
 
Strange you would support that considering you claim an originalist approach to constitutional law. Preemptive justice?

How is that strange? The two are not even remotely related.

I NEVER tied preemption to justice. Only you are doing that.

Preemption is a necessity when it comes to self defense, in certain instances; as much on a personal level as on an international level. To rule preemption out of consideration for any situation is to abstract one's self from reality; idealistic tomfoolery.

Israel always has a "justification", they always say they are preventing these groups from attacking, or producing weapons. How much of it you choose to buy into is up to you really.

The truth is not subjective.

Fact are facts and only certain things can logically be drawn from those facts.

But, think of how much trouble Israel causes for the civilian population using their heavy-handed approach.

That is a pretty big generalization. It could also be said that they prevented much more "trouble" or misery though those same "heavy-handed" tactics.

Your statement suggests an ignorance of Israeli culture. Everyone serves in the military at some point. Their children, because of the necessity of their situation, are trained to watch for potential terrorists and what actions to take to defend themselves and thwart potential terrorists etc.

IIRC, there was a news story some time ago about a terrorist who entered an Israeli elementary school, much like many of the school shootings you occasionally hear about in the U.S. The students neutralized the terrorist. Let me repeat that, Israeli elementary school students, because of the training they have to have in their culture due Israel's unique situation, neutralized a trained terrorist.

Israel's "heavy handed" tactics are not "too much" as you are inferring, they are appropriate and necessary and have been for so long that the culture has adapted to the everyday reality of Islamic terrorism.

Every time Israel does ANYTHING, they just feed the world "intelligence" about terrorist suspects, weapons manufacturing, or anything like that.

Never mind that they have the most effective intelligence service in the world, again, because of the necessity of their unique situation.

Not to say they don't get intelligence in those regards, but their intelligence is often times nothing more than the gut feeling of an informant.

Your point?

The average Palestinian feels constant oppression from Israel, so they are angry.

The average Palestinian is brainwashed from childhood to hate Jews and to blame any and every ill in their society on the Jews as a people and the state of Israel. They are brainwashed into focusing their energy on opposing the State of Israel by any means necessary.

Israel fights with its muslim neighbors because they hate Israel. Its muslim neighbors just end up hating them more because Israel is fighting them. It is an endless cycle.

So...they should stop fighting?

What will happen then? They all will hold hands and sing?

The whole argument that fighting evil causes more evil is a non-starter. It is meaningless, sophmoric rhetoric. Weather or not that is true is irrelevant, unless you think evil should be appeased. And appeasement NEVER. WORKS.

Paraphrasing what I said earlier, many times Israels "justifications" I would equate to a black man charging a KKK rally swinging a chainsaw yelling, "self-defense"

Your analogy grossly mischaracterizes things.

The more accurate analogy would be that black man charging with that chainsaw into a group of Klan who are about to set fire to his house, rape his wife and daughter and lynch his son.
 
sure. just like the creation of israel in the first place.
it takes heavy handedness to keep down a people that are only trying to regain what was stolen from them.

If you truly think that is all the Israel issue is about, you are more ignorant and naive then I thought you were.

And, no, you snarky condescension doesn't cover up your ignorance. Troll.

troll_gohome.jpg
 
How is that strange? The two are not even remotely related.

Really? You think so? Do I see someone only applying American principles of justice where it is convenient for them?

I NEVER tied preemption to justice. Only you are doing that.

When?

Preemption is a necessity when it comes to self defense, in certain instances; as much on a personal level as on an international level. To rule preemption out of consideration for any situation is to abstract one's self from reality; idealistic tomfoolery.

Now you are really out there on this one. You think you can try a man for murder because he buys a gun?

The truth is not subjective.

Fact are facts and only certain things can logically be drawn from those facts.

And if it were only facts and the truth, we would be fine. BUT.... there is a lot of exaggeration and mistruths there too.

That is a pretty big generalization. It could also be said that they prevented much more "trouble" or misery though those same "heavy-handed" tactics.

We could also reduce gang violence in america by killing everyone in impoverished inner city neighborhoods.

Your statement suggests an ignorance of Israeli culture.

I'm at a loss as to where you got that idea. Sounds to me like you are grasping for straws here.

Everyone serves in the military at some point. Their children, because of the necessity of their situation, are trained to watch for potential terrorists and what actions to take to defend themselves and thwart potential terrorists etc.

Excuses.

IIRC, there was a news story some time ago about a terrorist who entered an Israeli elementary school, much like many of the school shootings you occasionally hear about in the U.S. The students neutralized the terrorist. Let me repeat that, Israeli elementary school students, because of the training they have to have in their culture due Israel's unique situation, neutralized a trained terrorist.

I don't recall that article, but I would love to see it. Sounds like it would be great fun to read. Terrorists are dumb, I love reading anything about them getting pwned.

Israel's "heavy handed" tactics are not "too much" as you are inferring, they are appropriate and necessary and have been for so long that the culture has adapted to the everyday reality of Islamic terrorism.

I'm sorry, I am not familiar with Islamic terrorism. I never saw instructions in the copy of the Koran I have read. Maybe it is something that is lost in the translation to english.... but honestly, bible, koran, whatever. They all say basically the same crap. How some of their followers may twist the message or use it to manipulate other followers has nothing to do with the religion.

Never mind that they have the most effective intelligence service in the world, again, because of the necessity of their unique situation.

Your point?

The most effective intelligence service in the world relies on sketchy gut feelings of informants and inconclusive leads.

The average Palestinian is brainwashed from childhood to hate Jews and to blame any and every ill in their society on the Jews as a people and the state of Israel. They are brainwashed into focusing their energy on opposing the State of Israel by any means necessary.

I wonder why?

So...they should stop fighting?

Never said that. I said we should kill em all and start over again.

What will happen then? They all will hold hands and sing?

where are you getting this crap from?

The whole argument that fighting evil causes more evil is a non-starter. It is meaningless, sophmoric rhetoric. Weather or not that is true is irrelevant, unless you think evil should be appeased. And appeasement NEVER. WORKS.

WHETHER or not that is true is most certainly not irrelevant.... But there are other paths....

Your analogy grossly mischaracterizes things.

The more accurate analogy would be that black man charging with that chainsaw into a group of Klan who are about to set fire to his house, rape his wife and daughter and lynch his son.

Then obviously, as usual, you have learned everything you think you need to know about life from conservative news services and conservative web sites. I think you REALLY don't know much about what goes on over there.....
 
Hey Shag---
I thought that trolls lived under stone-and-timber bridges. Only bums live under steel bridges!
KS
 
sure. just like the creation of israel in the first place.
it takes heavy handedness to keep down a people that are only trying to regain what was stolen from them.

I honestly hate this argument. Both sides uses that to no extent.

Everyone wants to say the holy land was stolen from them. Christians, Jews, Muslims.... Heck, maybe some day hindu people will be trying to lay claim there.
 
Really? You think so? Do I see someone only applying American principles of justice where it is convenient for them?

Justice is not simply an "American" principle. But the Constitution only has any authority domestically and in governing how elected and appointed officials representing America conduct themselves. It has no say in foreign nations or how those nations conduct their affairs.

Strange you would support that considering you claim an originalist approach to constitutional law. Preemptive justice?

Now you are really out there on this one. You think you can try a man for murder because he buys a gun?

:confused:

Where are you getting that?


And if it were only facts and the truth, we would be fine. BUT.... there is a lot of exaggeration and mistruths there too.

Yes, and that is why separating the truth from them is very important. That is where critical thought comes in.

We could also reduce gang violence in america by killing everyone in impoverished inner city neighborhoods.

:confused:

Is that an attempt at reductio ad absurdum?

It seems you don't understand what I am saying.

I'm sorry, I am not familiar with Islamic terrorism. I never saw instructions in the copy of the Koran I have read. Maybe it is something that is lost in the translation to english.... but honestly, bible, koran, whatever. They all say basically the same crap. How some of their followers may twist the message or use it to manipulate other followers has nothing to do with the religion.

Again with the generalizations. The bible and the Koran are very different on a number of levels. Fosten would be the best one to explain that, though.

The most effective intelligence service in the world relies on sketchy gut feelings of informants and inconclusive leads.

Depending on the circumstances, yes. This is not a courtroom. There is no "controlling legal authority", no rules and/or procedures in gaining and acting on evidence.

The international community is analogous to Hobbe's state of nature. Not to a Constitutional Republic, like America.

I wonder why?

Take a guess.

Never said that. I said we should kill em all and start over again.

Which is an exceedingly ignorant thing to say and a very dangerous and foolish suggestion. Unless you meant it facetiously.

WHETHER or not that is true is most certainly not irrelevant.... But there are other paths....

Then you should be able to show why it is relevant.

Then obviously, as usual, you have learned everything you think you need to know about life from conservative news services and conservative web sites. I think you REALLY don't know much about what goes on over there.....

You have absolutely no clue what sources I gleaned my information from. However, it is rather clear that you are exceedingly ignorant about Israel and the Middle East.

FYI: espousing cheap excuses to justify your out-of-hand dismissal of opposing views only hurts your credibility. It is childish. But that seems to be what you are going for. I suspect your excuses are based on lies foxy is perpetuating about those of us who disagree with her in private. I would say she is playing off your ignorance of this forum and those on it, but your ego likely prevents you from considering anything I have to say at this point.
 
FYI: espousing cheap excuses to justify your out-of-hand dismissal of opposing views only hurts your credibility. It is childish. But that seems to be what you are going for. I suspect your excuses are based on lies foxy is perpetuating about those of us who disagree with her in private. I would say she is playing off your ignorance of this forum and those on it, but your ego likely prevents you from considering anything I have to say at this point.

Wow..... you are really paranoid aren't you. What does foxy have to do with this discussion? She has never talked to me about you guys in private messages.... Some of us have enough integrity to speak in public...

As far as me being ignorant of the middle east..... well if it makes you feel better to say that, go right ahead. But, no matter how many times you say it, it isn't going to make me ignorant of the goings-on over there. Maybe you should fly out there some time and spend a few weeks or a couple months out there. Heck, if you want to save the money on a plane ticket, just try tuning in a station other than fox news for news, and exercising this "critical thinking" that you are insisting you are so good at. Cheap excuses? Really? LAME. I would have thought you would have something better than this cheap canned response by now....

Well, since you want to turn this into a pissing contest, I am going to bow out of this thread before I have to continue to deal with such silliness.
 
Ancient times

sure. just like the creation of israel in the first place.
it takes heavy handedness to keep down a people that are only trying to regain what was stolen from them.

Lets see---
First you have Abraham, who, through second wife Hagar created Ishmael. Other sons became what are now Jews and the Hagar side became Arabs.

All started on the ground at the same time.

How was the area 'stolen from them'?

KS
 

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