Possible broken main timing chain?

fbird18

fbird18

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Hello guys. It's me your favorite MN member ;) I'm kidding I know most wouldn't even know me. Anyways...haven't been on in almost a month. Some people may know that in december I ended up replacing both of my secondary tensioners. Well on new years day I was driving around and as I was accelerating from a red light, I heard a pop or bang from the engine area, followed by the engine redlining (probably cuz I was accelerating) and the immediate shutting down of the engine. I was able to coast through a red light and into a parking lot. From there I tried several times to start the car. It would start but very roughly and only for a second or two. I stopped trying cuz I knew it was fubar'd at that point. Had it towed home. Haven't done anything with it since. I'm too scared :rolleyes: and really just waiting for warmer weather.

I have a feeling that it was a main timing chain that broke probably due to the broken pieces of the secondary tensioners from before that I wasn't able to get out without the front cover off. Judging by what happened and how it won't run, that's my uneducated guess. I mean if one of the two chains broke, I can see how there would be enough to get the engine started but certainly not idle, hence it dying right away. I don't know... Any other thoughts or what have you is encouraged.

Also, with how the engine is designed, IF the main chain broke, and I then turned the engine over several times, is there going to be valve and piston damage? I know this is all speculation until I get the valve covers off again to even see if the chain is broken, but I'm curious what the pros think. Thanks and i appreciate it. I'm really missing my car.... :(

And for funzies, I put a quick collage of my cars together....just becuase, in order of ownership.
92 merc sable, 92 ford mustag, 97 pontiac firebird, 89 ford mustang, 04 saturn ion, 03 dodge srt-4, 94 ford taurus sho, 01 lincoln ls, 86 honda shadow 1100, 97 merc grand marquis.
CARCOLLAGETRY2.jpg
 
fbird18 said:
...
Also, with how the engine is designed, IF the main chain broke, and I then turned the engine over several times, is there going to be valve and piston damage? ...
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My understanding is, yes the intake valves will hit the pistons, or the pistons will hit the intake valves, depending on how it look at it.
 
yeah..I think the 3.9 is an interference engine, an engine whose pistons can strike and damage the piston valves when the engine is cranked while the timing chain is broken


on a side note...I've owned or own four of the cars you have

1991 Notch ( sweet mid 12 car )

2004 SRT-4 ( savage low 11 ride )

1994 SHO ( great sounding engine...fairly quick )

And the LS ( good allaround chariot )
 
ToeCutter said:
yeah..I think the 3.9 is an interference engine, an engine whose pistons can strike and damage the piston valves when the engine is cranked while the timing belt is broken ...
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The LS has timing chains, not a timing belt. There's a difference.
 
Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking. Has anyone actually gone and done all the fixing in these situations? Like what may need to be replaced? I know I'm not going to know till I pull it apart, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I did some searching and didn't find anyone who had a similar situation and then fixed everything. I'm almost wondering if it would be easier/cheaper to put in a new motor? I don't know, got a couple months to think about it and save my pennies. Dear god I hope this grand marquis isn't going to give me any trouble...

ToeCutter said:
on a side note...I've owned or own four of the cars you have

1991 Notch ( sweet mid 12 car )

2004 SRT-4 ( savage low 11 ride )

1994 SHO ( great sounding engine...fairly quick )

And the LS ( good allaround chariot )
Click to expand...

A couple notes:
The 92 notchback was damn hard to look at, but it grew on ya ;) and lots of power in a little rear drive chasis.
The firebird was SOLID. I loved taking 45 mph higway turns at 90mph or more, it's amazing what 285mm rubber can do.
The SHO engine above 4000 rpm sounded wonderful (especially driving through a tunnel)!
People loved to make fun of the srt-4, but it was serious and with a little modding could be a monster. Routinely beat up on corvettes (even ones as new as the little neon) and still the only car I've gotten over 150mph.
And the LS. This is my favorite vehicle by far! Even with it being the damn money pit and repair queen it is.
 
Well, If it was me, I would get a used motor. Then maybe build the one you pull out. Too bad cammerfe's engine build is on the 4.0L jag. That would be a good resource otherwise.
 
You think so? If it ends up being more than timing things, like valves and pistons and who know what else, getting a rebuilt motor might be the best idea? I've never priced that kind of stuff out, don't know what it might add up to.
 
fbird18 said:
You think so? If it ends up being more than timing things, like valves and pistons and who know what else, getting a rebuilt motor might be the best idea? I've never priced that kind of stuff out, don't know what it might add up to.
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I suspect that your options, in rough order of expense are:

1. Replace it with a used (salvage) engine.
2. Replace the whole car.
3. Rebuild the engine yourself (I would do a full rebuild at this point.)
4. Replace with a rebuilt engine (do those exist for the LS?)
5. Replace with a new "crate" engine.

This, of course, assumes that you are right about one of the two main timing chains snapping. I'd at least pull the valve covers off and verify that before I thought too much about it.
 
joegr said:
The LS has timing chains, not a timing belt. There's a difference.
Click to expand...

Joe, I know there is a difference...but your splitting hairs about my post

what I meant was that if either a 'belt' or 'chain' breaks and the crank is still spinning....

on an inteference motor the pistons will hit the valves

and on a non-inteference motor...they will not
 
ToeCutter said:
Joe, I know there is a difference...but your splitting hairs about my post

what I meant was that if either a 'belt' or 'chain' breaks and the crank is still spinning....

on an inteference motor the pistons will hit the valves

and on a non-inteference motor...they will not
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Sorry, but to an engineer, hairs are very important. For example, they can be the difference between a gas pedal that sticks and one that doesn't. I try to be as precise and accurate as I can. I still think that the difference between a chain and a belt is more than a hair.
 
fbird18 said:
Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking. Has anyone actually gone and done all the fixing in these situations? Like what may need to be replaced? I know I'm not going to know till I pull it apart, but I'm just thinking out loud here. I did some searching and didn't find anyone who had a similar situation and then fixed everything. I'm almost wondering if it would be easier/cheaper to put in a new motor? I don't know, got a couple months to think about it and save my pennies. Dear god I hope this grand marquis isn't going to give me any trouble...



A couple notes:
The 92 notchback was damn hard to look at, but it grew on ya ;) and lots of power in a little rear drive chasis.
The firebird was SOLID. I loved taking 45 mph higway turns at 90mph or more, it's amazing what 285mm rubber can do.
The SHO engine above 4000 rpm sounded wonderful (especially driving through a tunnel)!
People loved to make fun of the srt-4, but it was serious and with a little modding could be a monster. Routinely beat up on corvettes (even ones as new as the little neon) and still the only car I've gotten over 150mph.
And the LS. This is my favorite vehicle by far! Even with it being the damn money pit and repair queen it is.
Click to expand...



my Stage 3 bumps off the rev limiter in 5th gear...about 175 mph


and I have to agree with you...of all the cars I've owned in my life...the LS is one of my favorites
 
joegr said:
Sorry, but to an engineer, hairs are very important. For example, they can be the difference between a gas pedal that sticks and one that doesn't. I try to be as precise and accurate as I can. I still think that the difference between a chain and a belt is more than a hair.
Click to expand...


LOL..would these hairs be on your head or on your a**

Allright Joe..since your being such a stickler..I'll edit my post

oh and.....a degree from NJIT in ME over here by the way
 
joegr said:
This, of course, assumes that you are right about one of the two main timing chains snapping. I'd at least pull the valve covers off and verify that before I thought too much about it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I know. I was just starting to think about it again and thought I'd see what the collective had to say. When it happens, I'm sure I'll be back here asking more questions :) Thanks

BTW, does anyone think this could just be some completely unrelated problem?

ToeCutter said:
my Stage 3 bumps off the rev limiter in 5th gear...about 175 mph
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Nice! I had the stage 2 upgrades and a couple others. Fun ass little car. The 175mph, is that on a dyno or did you actually drive it that fast? At 153mph, it was still accelerating and was incredibly smooth. I think stage 2 bumped top speed to 160. Terrifying and awesome it was!
 
down Interstate 95 going into PA...used a Globaltop GPS speedometer


and no..there was nobody else on the highway....2 a.m.
 
I'll go down there personally and make sure he fixes it. I think it's a very nice LS as well. :D
 
That sucks man.

I checked into a rebuilt engine through Autozone before I fixed my car and I believe it was around 3 or 4k IIRC. It would be cheaper for sure to get a used engine or course.

I currently have an '89 Mustang but have had a '92 as well and had a green '93 SHO which was fun when not being repaired and then of course the LS.
 
Thanks guys. Not sure what I'm gonna do, but if you like my car that much, wanna donate $ to my "Fix this f*^%ing car fund"? Hmmm? Pretty please. And yeah Pete if you want to come down you sure can. Maybe you'll get to help pull your first LS motor :) ......:(.

If we don't make it through this, thanks for the memories baby...
P4043491.jpg


P3163306smaller3-1.jpg
 
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Sure, I'll be glad to help. I got to make a trip down there anyways to make my car faster :D Brandon's gonna help me out a bit with a couple things. I'll come over to your place after.
 
Hey fbird, I feel your pain as I broke a secondary timing chain about 9 months ago and that was a very sad day. I broke mine starting my car up to leave for work. It cost me about $1000 in parts and $300 to have the head fixed. I did the work myself and it was kinda a pain. Just think, I salvage yard motor might break a timing chain soon after you put it in your car depending on the abuse of the motor. I didn't have any piston damage, but like I said mine broke when starting not accelerating like you was. That $1000 included replacing everything behind the timing cover. Just think, if you replace your whole timing assembly it will be like a brand new motor. These engines usually don't have bottom end problems unless you are spraying it. Majority of the failures comes from the timing assembly. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!!
 
pektel said:
Sure, I'll be glad to help. I got to make a trip down there anyways to make my car faster :D Brandon's gonna help me out a bit with a couple things. I'll come over to your place after.
Click to expand...

I'd like to make mine faster too ... :shifty: ... right now she isn't moving very quickly. Hell, walking speed would even be nice.
 
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