Headers, throttle body and cams discussion

Missing Linc'

Missing Linc'

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Alright Im opening this discussion to hopefully get some knowledge and maybe get some kind of performance outta this efficient engine. This is open to all thoughts and comments as long as they stay on topic. I want it to be a sticky if anything does come of it but who knows maybe my hopes and dreams will be smashed by Ford's engineers.

First off on the list: Headers, I know theres been discussion of them and how they would be worth it and blah blah theyd cost so much to get some made, well what if I wanted to weld some up myself. Its a DIYer job, thats why summit ect self weld up header kits. Now I know they would be cramped in there, Im thinking shorties 1 1/2 or 1 5/8in primaries or maybe a Tri-Y design.

Throttle bodies: Gen1 guys you got it pretty easy considering your not drive by wire, myself on the other hand, Im looking into possibly a Mustang twinblade drive by wire unit? I have yet to look at one but I can tomorrow at work to see if connectors ect are interchangable. If not and there is no other replacement what about boring or porting and polishing the throttle body? I believe Sully said he had ported and polished his along with the intake manifold so this is an addition already. Do we know how far it can be bored out ect tho? What were the effects both positive and negative.

Cams: Now cams are pretty series and not for the everyday Joe, I dont even wanna tackle something as big as this to be honest, someone with mroe experience tho why not. Ive read that atleast one or two of you on the boards have reground cams. Do we have any before and after specs? What was the movement of the powerband in relation to said cam swap? Prices and who did them? Was there a before and after dyno or track run to see if there was a gain in HP/TQ or loss in HP/TQ? Drivebility issues i.e. vaccum loss? ECM issues?

Everything that can be done to any other small block ford/chevy can be done to our engine, its just not off the shelf is all. Id like to see some more involvement in this thread and the LS Performance section all together other than is ther a supercharger/turbo for my LS??? Im currently thumbing over information because I plan on custom mounting an M90 to my 3.9 just as Quik did and hes teaching me a lot so why not let everybody else learn too as we find these thigns out.. Tomorrow Ill have a yes or no on if the connectors from the Mustant GT throttle body are the same or look close enough to fit..

Lets get this thread rolling guys, my LS has the luxury but not so much the sport and I plan on fixing that. :D
 
lets do this one at a time. im not even going to read the other ones till Im done talking about one :p

Headers:
A few people have done headers. Some have done a few different set ups. The best I've heard of was shifting the power band. A tri y set up or 4-2-1 as its sometimes called is for low end torque. The theory is that the ehaust flowing from one cyl will suck the exhaust out of its partner. Then one set suck starts the next set. Pretty smart idea really! Remember this when we talk about cams. The engineers from Ford really did a good job getting the most power out of the stock mani though. The question becomes is it worth it for no power gain at best! The answer is yes if you have the resources and want to get out of the hole better. but there are more cost effective ways to get the car to dig out better without effecting high rpm power. I would look elsewhere to get performance and then come back to this down the road if i had run out of ideas.

Throttle Body:
I cant speak for the tbw or any matching from other cars like the stang. I can speak for the first gen throttle body though. I found when I pulled mine apart that there is a large (almost 3/4") cancerous hump in the tb-intake adapter thingy. I smoothed that out to make the opening more open.
IMG_0811.jpg


then on the actual buterfly valve, there were some humps and minor bumps and such that I cleaned up just for the sake of turbulence.

IMG_0809.jpg

I also matched both the tb and the intake manifols to the gasket, i wanted to make the holes the same size between the two. Once you get the gasket line pretty much met, you can sit there and place the adapter part to the intake and feel it out make sure its smooth.
the point of the port and polish is to simply clean up the mess from fabrication. With intakes, you dont want it polished. The slight roughnes causes enough turbulence to mix the fuel and air.... and thats big! At the same time you dont want huge lumps in the way, or crap in the way. I found that I had a bottle neck from the bottom of the tb being higher than the bottom of the intake mani. so I ground them down to match.
I havent tested the car on dyno before or after, but the throttle responce is much better and with the CAI back on it seemed on the butt dyno to have more pep than when i had just the cai. I have yet to see a down side.


Cams:
NA cams are designed to do the samething ass the 4-2-1 headers. the exhaust valve stays open to suck the intake into the cyl. Its just for a little but, but it is there. You dont want that at all if you running a turbo. a SC wouldnt like it either but i dot think it would care as much as the turbo. the key to cams whould be to know what route you want to go ahead of time. If you figure it out you can talk to the guys from a reputable cam dealer (comp cams for example) and tell them what you want to do with it and then when they get your cams in (you have to send them your stocks so they can measure everything out) they can put together a set of cams for what YOU want. With the cams, the other thing to look at would be valve train. if we add to the rpm range of this motor, we could unlock a whole lot off power. Cams have power bands they like to run in, and with higher rpms from valve train, we can use what those cams want to give us. Something to think about.
 
Empire LS did some cams... I dont know his grind but he said he was happy with the gains. If you upgrade the cams enough to really mess with the fuel flow, you may have to change out part of the fuel system. The commonly found weak point is the fuel pump, and then injectors. The big part of cams is tuning. Some people in other car types seem to think they get around tuning the new cams, and injectors. I've even seen people who think that you match the MAF to the rest and it works without tuning. That is simply not right!!! The MAF shouldnt need upgrading unless you are flowing tons of air! Have your fuel maps done and done right! You have to figure you are going to spend about 2400 for a set of cams before installation and then only get half the performance out it. Seems pretty dumb to me!

I've wrestled with doing an NA build instead of my turbo build plans. I'm convinced I could get a car into the 12's without juice then spray my way in roll cage territory. I just dont know if I can the power that a turbo build can yield.
 
Im going the other forced air route with an M90 but Id still like to look into these other mods and if cams are gonna cost that much I might as well get a blower type grind, when I get to that point Ill call Comp/Crane/Lunati whoever and see whats up. I went and took pictures of a 2005 Mustang GT throttle body today, Ive yet to confirm or deny if the connectors are the same, Ill check after work but if you wanna take a look here are the pics. Im posting via my cell phone haha, they look to be very similar to me (05') Im not sure about the 1st gens. But if they are that basically means newer GT throttle bodies stock and aftermarket will work for us with some type of adapter plate.

02232009_002.jpg


02232009_003.jpg


02232009_004.jpg


02232009_005.jpg
 
im out on this one... I have no idea what the second gen ones look like. I know in Quicks build thread there is a SC throttle body thing in there and then something baout the TPS. its all in there if someone wants to dig it up. That may be an option for the first gen guys.


Yeah when you decide to do the cams, definitely talk to them. They do this stuff all day long, so they have to either know what tey are talking about or get the hell out of the way!
 
They should also be able to tell you if your should upgrade your valve train. That may mean you have to send them on of each valve.
 
I run a Magnum Powers 85mm throttlebody meant for a T-Bird Supercoupe. It's meant to mate to the MPII inlet and M90 ported blower. I ported my inlet plenum and then match a TPS to the LS connector but with the right spin and angle for the T-Bird throttlebody.

It's not a progressive TB - so stumble in and stumble out is part of the 'charm'.

Here's the page on the TB - > http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=13357&page=17
Here's the post on the TPS match - > http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=115731&postcount=23


It does not match the stock LS intake at all.
 
SPSully said:
Empire LS did some cams... I dont know his grind but he said he was happy with the gains.
Click to expand...
He never dyno'd it though - so what the 'real' gains were are hard to say. He returned the car to stock tuning and sold it. Not sure if he also returned to stock cams....
 
Last edited:
4.6 2v TBs look like a match. All but the above mentioned linkage. I bought a pair of gaskets to campare aned they are the same. Linkage shouldn't be a issue with some custom tweaking. With the small gain I would expect I haven't followed through with doing it. Still may though, a 75mm would be the one I would use.

Quik? How does not having the progressive throttle action give a stumble? The TPS tells the computer the throttle position so the fact that it swings open faster shouldn't matter as the TPS should be saying so. My thought anyway.
 
This motor already revs pretty high, not sure you would want it higher.

If you're in the northeast area (hell, even if you're not), Boucher's in Rowley Ma is a very good engine shop. They are a sponsor at New England Dragway in Epping, NH

There are lots of engines on ebay right now. Might be worth grabbing one and building it up properly (and keeping the stock one for those OOOPS situations). I myself would want to keep the aluminum block for handling purposes. Assuming forged rods pistons and crank, how much power can this block take? 600 seems like a stretch.

$$$$$$
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC said:
Quik? How does not having the progressive throttle action give a stumble? The TPS tells the computer the throttle position so the fact that it swings open faster shouldn't matter as the TPS should be saying so. My thought anyway.
Click to expand...

when you watch your stock LS TB - it only opens the plate about 1/4 - 1/3 while it's through the first half of it's range. It lends itself to drivability - where you can work more of the throttle at the low input and have finer control. It also means that going to and from WOT has a 'softer' curve.

You're right in that the TPS still reads what it reads - so it's not a matter of air/fuel - but more of the curve of transition - tip in and tip out. Tuning can smooth much of this - but the progressive TB is also part of the tuning.
 
Quik LS said:
when you watch your stock LS TB - it only opens the plate about 1/4 - 1/3 while it's through the first half of it's range. It lends itself to drivability - where you can work more of the throttle at the low input and have finer control. It also means that going to and from WOT has a 'softer' curve.

You're right in that the TPS still reads what it reads - so it's not a matter of air/fuel - but more of the curve of transition - tip in and tip out. Tuning can smooth much of this - but the progressive TB is also part of the tuning.
Click to expand...

In looking into the 4.6 TB swap I did observe the unique throttle movement of the LS plenty. I do not believe it is there as necessity for driveability, more to calm slight throttle responsiveness(or perhaps to try to improve fuel mileage)....for the average Lincoln driver. Putting more throttle openning at the later half of the peddle push for when your really into it, many LSers never do.

I believe switching to a non proggressive TB will not lead to tip in issues, at worse a jumpier throttle as it will be openning quicker.

The TPS tells the computer whats what.

I would think quick pedal jabs, partially to the floor would be no different than a non progressive TB. I would think in all the random throttle mashing I would have simulated a situation similar to the proggressive nature of the linkage not being there. No stumbles or tip in issues when I do it, at least that I would consider a stumble.

Your car can be in no way used for a baseline for a simple TB swap, nor could any tuning issues be assummed based on your TB swap. Not to say they couldn't happen or some tuning ajustments wouldn't help.
 
Think of it this way....
- the smaller plate movement over the larger range of TPS reading allows for finer resolution.
- a non-progressive TB moves the plate farther over the same TPS reading - therefore less resolution.

it leds to drivability when you drive around at half-throttle and less.

it's simple math.
 
SPSully said:
Empire LS did some cams... I dont know his grind but he said he was happy with the gains. If you upgrade the cams enough to really mess with the fuel flow, you may have to change out part of the fuel system. The commonly found weak point is the fuel pump, and then injectors. The big part of cams is tuning. Some people in other car types seem to think they get around tuning the new cams, and injectors. I've even seen people who think that you match the MAF to the rest and it works without tuning. That is simply not right!!! The MAF shouldnt need upgrading unless you are flowing tons of air! Have your fuel maps done and done right! You have to figure you are going to spend about 2400 for a set of cams before installation and then only get half the performance out it. Seems pretty dumb to me!

I've wrestled with doing an NA build instead of my turbo build plans. I'm convinced I could get a car into the 12's without juice then spray my way in roll cage territory. I just dont know if I can the power that a turbo build can yield.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly I believe he said that he had put a total of $1000 into the cam swap. I also believe he said he was having transmission issues with the car handling the power, let me see if I can pull up the thread.
 
TDUB said:
If I remember correctly I believe he said that he had put a total of $1000 into the cam swap. I also believe he said he was having transmission issues with the car handling the power, let me see if I can pull up the thread.
Click to expand...

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=41940

he rebuilt his trannie before the cams. he did not get enough additional power to hurt the driveline....

oops - sorry for the double post - slow in my old age...
 
Quik LS said:
Think of it this way....
- the smaller plate movement over the larger range of TPS reading allows for finer resolution.
- a non-progressive TB moves the plate farther over the same TPS reading - therefore less resolution.

it leds to drivability when you drive around at half-throttle and less.

it's simple math.
Click to expand...

Also the MarkVIII hase a dual blade TB. It has a similar nature as one blade opens slowly and then the other blade starts and has a much faster rate. They do not open on the same shaft and have a very progressive design. Its the only 4.6 4V to have this style TB. Not uncommon to swap entire intakes and go to standard operation TBs with no problems. Also the 4.6 4V is in many applications without this design.

Tuning is likely different among the different vehicles, but doesn't mean it has to stay like that.
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC - but you do get the resolution difference when working only the lower half of the pedal?

the non-progressive TB coupled with going to a 85mm TB exacerbates my transition issue. most of my stumble has been tuned out - not finished yet.

here a good article on it - > http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110678/printArticle.html
 
Mmmm, maybe not. Can see how the initial blade openning could be the most sensitive.




But still I can't see comparing what you experience with a TB swap on your 1 off combo can show what a TB swap for a basic bolt on car will do.


Boosted compounds it alot, doesn't it?
 
sure it does....

to prove the point - almost all modern cars use progressive linkage now. the air flowing in around the throttle blade is not linear to the amount that the blade opens - so the engineers compensate by designing in a progressive linkage - and tuning - to adjust the drivability. And now they have complete control with the throttle-by-wire systems.... where they can even compensate for the rate that you move the pedal...

as I said above - my setup of non-progressive TB coupled with going to a 85mm TB exacerbates my transition issue - and my driving style of on and off the throttle......
 
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