'Original meaning' and the constitution

Well, a lot more now then I did a couple of days ago.

I find that when debating, if someone quotes a questionable (I know, my opinion) source that it usually is good to go out and familiarize yourself with the source.

Previous to this debate, what I knew of David Limbaugh:

1. Had a 'legal' network set up to help 'persecuted' Christians.

2. Had 'recently' discovered Christ

I have found the first one is true - I don't know about the second one.
 
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Why do you use quotes around those words? Are you mocking? Are you not aware that he's an attorney? Why would you mock the use of the word legal?
 
You read way to much into my posts Foss, I don't think I am that devious...

New discoveries (since Shag posted about him)
He is an attorney
He is Rush Limbaugh's brother
He lives in Missouri
He writes a lot of stuff
He is quoted a lot

The quotes were because prior to shag's posting, I didn't really bother to find out more - 'legal' is in reference to the fact I didn't know what sort of network he had set up - other than it had to do with court cases.
 
Fox, I find that I don't disagree with you nearly as much as I do with some of the (seemingly) left wingnuts who wander through here. And even when you are offering something I find unacceptable, you do it with a fair degree of grace. You're dangerous!
KS
 
You read way to much into my posts Foss, I don't think I am that devious...

New discoveries (since Shag posted about him)
He is an attorney
He is Rush Limbaugh's brother
He lives in Missouri
He writes a lot of stuff
He is quoted a lot

The quotes were because prior to shag's posting, I didn't really bother to find out more - 'legal' is in reference to the fact I didn't know what sort of network he had set up - other than it had to do with court cases.
So what do you know about him that causes you to challenge him as a reliable source? By your own admission, all you knew prior to this debate was that he gave legal assistance to Christians and professed to be a Christian. And that's why you told Shag he could not use him as a source?

Or is it because you knew he was Rush's brother?
 
From David Limbaugh:

Congress passed the Northwest Ordinance to promote religion and morality,

Well, when Shag posted this, I certainly questioned David Limbaugh’s stance on the Northwest Ordinance– I do know a little bit about the Northwest Ordinance and what it does… That is why I questioned the source - this one statement (although, maybe I should look at the others that are in the David Limbaugh list too, I just knew that this one was wrong).

The Northwest Ordinance was actually a document that established a government for the Midwest – where Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, etc are, and not a document that would “promote religion and morality”. It was a document that insured that the new states would have the same rights as the original 13, and protected their civil liberties, while outlawing slavery (that is why it is so famous, how states get admitted, and the slavery bit). It actually was enacted in 1787, before the bill of rights (1789).

The Third Article… the one Shag uses…
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”

Actually, a Minster – Manasseh Cutler, drafted the original part of the document, and he was also a member of the Ohio Trading Company, who sort of had Congress over a barrel on this one (the US needed the additional land and revenue to pay off mounting debt after the Revolutionary War). There have been varying accounts of what the original drafts said, but, the final article that is in the Ordinance is pretty telling.

It is actually 2 different statements – “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind,” and then “schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged”.

The congress kept Minister Cutler happy, (and therefore the Ohio Trading Company content) with making this a bit of fluff. What was left was a statement to the effect that religion is necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, without actually giving any governmental power or authority. And, the second part, which is often pointed to proudly by education leaders… schools shall forever be encouraged.

I have seen this used before – and it runs up a red flag for me. Lots of Christian sources use it as a means to discredit separation of Church and State. I sort of feel that it was politics as normal, and that actually, it reinforces the fact that once again, congress was doing it’s darnest with holding fast to keeping the state out of the religion business.

So, that is the first reason I thought I should question the source.

I could care less that he is Rush Limbaugh’s brother, I thought it was an interesting fact (Am I my brother's keeper–Genesis 4:9) I actually didn’t find that out until last night – when I was googling to find out more about David.
 
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no, it follows my arguement. so, shag running from this? he doesn't usually give up so easily.
Took you FOUR DAYS to come up with "nuh-uh?"

And you're correct. Your world is flat comment follows your argument. Of course, it's not relevant to my argument, because I was referring to the beginning of this country, not the beginning of time. So actually your argument is a straw man.
 
no, it follows my arguement. so, shag running from this? he doesn't usually give up so easily.

I have been exceedingly busy and don't have time to develop an adequate response at the moment. I will get to it later...
 
I'm not worried - the constitution isn't going to change anytime soon (I hope...:rolleyes: )

Shag will return to battle...
 
I'm not worried - the constitution isn't going to change anytime soon (I hope...:rolleyes: )

Shag will return to battle...
The Constitution is irrelevant. Congress is about to pass the largest socialist bill in history. Welcome to the U.S.S.A.
 
Its survived worse...
Well let me say this in context, now that the bill has failed.

There has never been a bill this bad. Ever. Hillary came close in 1993 with her nationalization of healthcare initiative. But it never was made into a bill.

This bill is pure socialism on a grand scale. The country would not return back to free market capitalism if this passes.
 
Well, it survived FDR's NRA - a lot more sweeping and more socialistic than the bailout bill, as it went to the house today. But, maybe if we are going to talk the constitution surviving blows - it belongs in a different thread?
 
Well, it survived FDR's NRA - a lot more sweeping and more socialistic than the bailout bill, as it went to the house today.
We survived, but we never returned from the socialist slide. Look at the size of SS now, and look at it's implosion looming in the near future. Should I rest my case?

But, maybe if we are going to talk the constitution surviving blows - it belongs in a different thread?
Your choice, since you brought it up. ;)
 
So, FDR, new deal, socialism, entitlements - new thread - eventually??? :)
 
Took you FOUR DAYS to come up with "nuh-uh?"

And you're correct. Your world is flat comment follows your argument. Of course, it's not relevant to my argument, because I was referring to the beginning of this country, not the beginning of time. So actually your argument is a straw man.

well, i'm busy as well as this place has become so american political lately i don't check in as often. but there was no reference as to what your beginning meant. sorry about that. just took a different implication. i await shags reply to foxpaws. i guess this doesn't take precedent over the "now" political stuff.
 
the only reason religion gets attacked is that the gov't doesn't want ANY form of solidarity with the people. They (gov't) due what ever it takes to keep the people at each others throats that way they can do what they want without conflict
 
the only reason religion gets attacked is that the gov't doesn't want ANY form of solidarity with the people. They (gov't) due what ever it takes to keep the people at each others throats that way they can do what they want without conflict
Correct...and with the complicit media keeping us in a "state of fear," they can control the populace.
 
See my reply in new thread "attacking religion" - it really doesn't belong here...
 
...in interpreting a text, a court should determine what the authors of the text were trying to achieve
What sort of fair objective method does one use to determine what the lawmakers were attempting to achieve?
 
I believe there is very little 'interpretation' or 'original meaning' discourse necessary in the First Amendment, just as there is little interpretation needed in the 2nd Amendment. I think the 'boys' had a pretty good idea of what they wanted to say, and succinctly stated it.

The Amendments were calculated to be ambiguous and to deceive. I have two eyewitnesses to that fact.

if only we had a time machine, all of this would be sooo much easier -;)

We don't need a time machine. We know what the well established common law rules of construction were when the Constitution was being made. All we have to do is know, understand and apply the rules.
 
Madison's own words:
"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government.... We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
June 20, 1785

That's a bogus quote, troll.
 
people are misinterpreting the constitution as having a "wall of separation" between church and state
Establishing a federal government with limited authority and granting that government no authority whatsoever over religion would seem to suggest an intent to separate religion from civil authority.
 

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