Another Brake Rotor Thread

04_Sport_LS

04_Sport_LS

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Hello,

New here. Acquired my 04 LS in January, and have been lurking for a while. Lots of good information here, including customization/upgrades. Been reading on different rotor/pad combinations that people are using, and decided to join because I have some questions, and have found some different parts that no one has discussed, and it may be of some interest to members.

Recently, during a front hub change, i noticed that my front rotors should be changed. Pads were in good shape, (obvoiusly changed at some time), but the rotors had a lip on the edge and the pad contact surface was countersunk in relation to the outer circumference. I guarantee they are below minimum spec, (or would be after turning). Seems typical to the last decade of Ford vehicles with higher mileage, that still have factory rotors on them.

I have been scouring this site, and the web, (in an OCD manner), for ideas on replacement pads and rotors. I am looking for parts longevity, along with a performance upgrade. I believe in, (and have had excellent experience), with turning, or replacing rotors, with every pad change. In fact, I recommend it.

Beyond the standard local parts store offerings, (of which Bosch and Napa Premium are the only ones I would consider), I have been looking at standard blanks, drilled, slotted, drilled/slotted, cryo, dimpled, diamond cut/slotted, high carbon, alloy, and different combinations of all of the aforementioned processes. I am aware of Centric, (and all of their different offerings), Brembo, ATE, Baer, EBC, Carbon Z, Raybestos, Stillen, Textar, Wildwood, Zimmerman, and different manufacturer's BBK offerings.

There are some that I have forgotten to mention in the "overload" of my research. Not all of these companies make rotors for the LS, and some of the ones that do, are outrageously expensive. While my driving can be agressive, I do not "track" my LS, so ultimate performance is not necessary.

I am a staunch supporter of "Made In USA" products, when possible, and China and Mexico are 5 letter cuss words in my book, when it comes to manufacturing, (no offense meant to any nationality). This country is in the toilet because manufacturing has went elsewhere, (don't mean to flame here, don't want a war). So that leaves very few offerings that fit my bill. I will consider European manufacturers. I am not afraid to spend $100+ per corner, without going to extremes. I do not believe in the long term performance and quality of $20 rotors, or most of the cheap online, or Ebay drilled/slotted variants. If it's not sold by a reputable e-tailer, (with manufacturer references), or maunufacturer direct, I will not buy from the website. That, to me, leaves the following choices... which as far as my searches on this site have revealed... have not been discussed on this site.

frozenrotors.com - I have talked to them. They use Zimmerman castings, which have mixed reviews, depending on the vehicle and driver. From my understanding, (not fact), they are partnered with Centric, and cryo Centrics offerings, but also operate independently. They offer blanks, slotted, and drilled/slotted. Some are zinc plated, and some are e-coated at the hat. I unfortunately do not have their correspondence with me anymore, but it was encouraging.

ssbrakes.com - Big Bite Rotors seem to be very well maunufactured, and they have been late in the drilled/slotted entry, to make sure they have addressed the quality issues with these types of rotors. I have talked to them to, and they do defend there product against common cheap d/s rotors, and do have some interesting information on their website...

Hello Mike,

Thank you for contacting SSBC with your braking needs. Our rotors, just like everyone elses are cast in China. While some companies claim to have "American Made" rotors, the sad fact is that there hasn't been an american made rotor since the early 80's. Companies can claim to have american made rotors if 51% of the manufacturing that goes into the rotor is done in the US. While in fact that the casting is from China still. Even though all rotors are cast in China, there are still different levels of quality offered from China. We purchase the highest quality castings available and finish the machining in Canada in order to insure the highest quality piece to put our name on. Our rotors carry a one year warranty against defect. All cross-drilling is place in the cooling valleys as to not alter the structural integrity of the rotor and all holes are chamfered to eliminate cracking.
I have addressed the left rear caliper not being offered on our website for your Lincoln. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can do for you or if you would like to place the order.

Sincerely,

Dan Classer

SSBC Performance Brake Systems
Click to expand...

I checked their site, and the left rear rotor is still currently listed under Jaguar/Thunderbird. Part #23549AA3L

sp-performance.com - These guys are a little more obscure, and it seems e-tailers are limited to Ebay. I have yet to contact them to discuss the origins of their products, and purchasing options, and some of the typos on their website make me wonder if it isn't broken English, but from what I can tell, it is an American company, and they have some very interesting concepts for their rotors. Especially the way they chamfer/drill the holes.

The fouth consideration was Centeic Aero Rotors, but after corresponding with the company, they are only available in a BBK. Too bad... They are 100% USA made.

Mike,

Thank you for contacting us about our AeroRotor program. While we are planning to offer these parts for more applications, the Lincoln LS is not one of the vehicles we plan to support. For a stock size rotor upgrade we do offer PowerSlot and SportStop parts as well as braided lines and pads for the stock calipers. We also offer a complete big brake kit for the front and rear axles.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Erik Steinkamp
Click to expand...

It appears, (not fact), that a foundry in Okland California still makes rotors for Centric, and a couple of other manufacturers that I can't currently remember.

www.ate-na.com/ - They make an interesting slotted rotor, that is not out of the question for me.

I have read the pros and cons of drilled/slotted rotors, but the aforementioned companies seem to have addressed the cons. I don't want to get into the drilled/slotted vs. blanks debate.

I am thinking of using Akebono or EBC Redstuff pads, if I decide to use drilled/slotted rotors, because turning these types of rotors is very questionable, and these appear to be gentler pads. If I go with cryo blanks, then they are "turnable" and more agressive pads can be used. I have done countless brake jobs, and even some "mods", but have never dealt with drilled/slotted rotors... So now to my questions...

How bad are the slotted, drilled/slotted rotors for noise??? My car is a daily driver, and I don't want to deal with a lot of noise, but I do want improved performance.

Has anyone had issues with the zinc coating, or other plating, with any specific type/brand of brake pad???

Had anyone run across an extremely bad rotor/pad combo that should be avoided???

Any other gentle pads, that are best with drilled/slotted rotors???

Any best pads that work best with cryo rotors???

I would prefer any pads I buy, to be "low dust". I hate cleaning rims. :(

PLEASE KEEP ANY AND ALL COMMENTS EXPLICIT TO THE LS. Thanks in advance, and sorry about the extreeeeeeeemly long first post. I just wanted to make sure I explained myself fully to remove any questions or confusion. I also hope I have added some options for people interested in upgrading the brakes on their LS. I will mention that I am in no way affiliated with any aformentioned company, nor am I in the parts selling business.

---Mike---
 
TooManyToys worked in friction test/dev, so hopefully he'll chime in.

I can say that the Motorcraft red box pads are very noisy. EBC's pads have been noted as very dusty. Akebono got some thumbs up earlier.
 
Yeah. That would be great if he gave his input on this. Forgot to mention that the
SP-Performance rotors have a lifetime warranty against cracking. Lifetime being the "minimum recommended thickness". Iv'e seen feedback on the red box pads, and the general consensus is that they are junk. From what I have read, the OEM pads were Akebono on the front, and Jurid on the rears. Beck-Arnley sells these brands, but there is no way to tell if the replacements will be those brands. Maybe an e-mail is in order.
 
I wanted "Made in USA" also, and did some research prior to purchasing. After about 9 months of use I am still happy with the R1Concepts Premium Slotted Rotors (higher strength cast iron disc, usually a G3500 iron grade) using the Porterfield R4-S Carbon & Kevlar brake pads.

Brakes were checked at a Lincoln dealership last week, had minimal wear after 10K miles.

They are quiet, I don't notice any sounds, and the pads grip without the brake dust.

Lincoln LS 2004 R1Concepts Premiun Slotted Rear Brake Rotors PS.61062:
http://www.r1concepts.com/lincoln-ls-2004-brakes-PS.61062.htm

Lincoln LS 2004 R1Concepts Premium Slotted Front Brake Rotors PS.61060:
http://www.r1concepts.com/lincoln-ls-2004-brakes-PS.61060.htm

Lincoln LS 2004 R4-S Porterfield Rear Brake Pad AP944
http://www.lpiracing.com/Lincoln-LS-R4-S-Porterfield-Brake-Pad-AP944-11741p111362.htm

Lincoln LS 2004 R4-S Porterfield Front Brake Pad AP805
http://www.lpiracing.com/Lincoln-LS-R4-S-Porterfield-Brake-Pad-AP805-11741p111360.htm

Edit: The vast majority of the R1Concepts rotor blanks they receive come from Canada and Europe, all machining treating & coating etc is done in the USA in California. Porterfield R4 brake pads are "Made in USA" (that's what the box says).
 
Something I was surprised about on brake parts. Had a Toyota Corolla for a short time (used POS for the kids to learn to drive in) that needed brakes. I always replace the hardware when doing brakes. The parts store brand slide bolt kit from Advance Auto was made in the USA.

I also suggest that all the hardware get replaced when the brakes are done. The bolts and slides are exposed to several hundred degrees every time the brakes are applied, then they cool back down. While the parts are designed for it, after thousands of heat cycles they will deform and not slide right anymore. This can cause the calipers to hang. And it's usually about another 10 bucks or so a wheel.
 
Sorry but life gets in the way. Next two days I take over for my mother’s caretaker while she goes home so I’ll be out of communication and trying to do other things.

You’ve done your homework. The aftermarket tends to be a sandtrap of truth. I’ll point to Mr. Classer’s statement that no rotors have been made in the US since the 80’s. It wasn’t until 06/07 when Raybestos and Federal-Mogul closed their aftermarket foundries and machining facilities in the US to move them to China. Some OE casting and machining is still done in the US. TRW is importing their A/M rotor from their eastern European plant if I’m not mistaken.

The price pressures of stores like Advance / Autozone / O’Rileys and the environmental restrictions have just forced the manufacturing out of this country. As you can see from this forum there is great interest in buying eBay products at a low price more for appearance and cost then for performance.

In the end what it comes down to is who are the companies that take pride in what they market, who are going to control the casting process for quality issues, and produce a rotor that is machined to OE tolerances. That is becoming harder as years go by.

Rotors have been cast from G2500, G2500a, G3500, G3500b, G3500c, etc. The grades will vary the carbon content to be more resistant to thermal checking or cracking and deformation. But even if you know the grade the process can alter the crystalline structure within the casting, or the heat treating process can vary the hardness. The quality of the casting pattern can affect the consistency of the rubbing discs of the disc assembly. There are just a lot of variables that make, or break a rotor’s functionality. So just like friction material, you often get what you pay for.

I tend to stay with prime foundation brake manufacturer’s parts in the aftermarket, companies like Continental (ATE), Bosch, TRW (Kelsey-Hayes) and Brembo when I can. But for reference I have a stack of OE rotors for my F-350 sitting in my shed as I have not found any aftermarket sourced rotor to be up to the standard of an OE supplied rotor. Note that the Lincoln “Motorcraft” rotors are not OE, but supplied by Federal-Mogul (Wagner) through the Ford Motorcraft program, not a bad rotor, but not OE.

I always buy solid surface rotors (not to mean non-vented rotor) if the vehicles came that way. Unless you are Autocrossing and need the lighter weight, I stay away from drilled rotors completely. Just no street benefit. Slotted rotors will give you a means to reduce wet brake delay on application. It will also benefit a situation where the friction temperature is reaching the point where the composite is outgassing. However, if you are using a quality brake pad then the outgassing temperature will exceed any typical aggressive driving situation save going through the mountains with your hair on fire.

If you want slotted rotors for the looks, fine. They are a concern for getting the turned, but I’m to the point that I rarely recommend that anyone get rotors turned. If you are going to have them done on a bench lathe, just throw them away. On-car lathe, much better but is the operator trained to look for hard spots and is the finish going to be within OE specs? A pretty big study by two companies showed that 90% of the time shop work is too coarse.

Anti-corrosion coatings are good for the hat and vane sections (if applied there), but do no good on the rubbing surfaces. Cryo treatments, well, based on my former director who worked at Ford’s Scientific Research lab, it’s good until the rotor’s heat cycles negate it in about a week.

When you start looking at the aftermarket specialty companies it becomes very hard to see through the sales BS.

One of the biggest factors in how the rotors contribution to brake functionality is often overlooked. What is the installed runout? Can make an average rotor work great, and a “all the bells and whistles” rotor to be characterized as junk.

I was looking at Continental's ATE rotors too. Ended up with the OE front rotors I had (in the shed) and the Motorcraft rear rotors. Maybe next time.
 
TooManyToys said:
However, if you are using a quality brake pad then the outgassing temperature will exceed any typical aggressive driving situation save going through the mountains with your hair on fire.
Click to expand...

You rang? :D

I used Centric "Daily Driver" rotor blanks from rockauto on the front and AutoZone specials on the rear. Pads were Akebono Euro. I have zero complains. Whether or not the Autozone rotors end up being a mistake I will find out.
 
TooManyToys said:
Sorry but life gets in the way. Next two days I take over for my mother’s caretaker while she goes home so I’ll be out of communication and trying to do other things.

You’ve done your homework. The aftermarket tends to be a sandtrap of truth. I’ll point to Mr. Classer’s statement that no rotors have been made in the US since the 80’s. It wasn’t until 06/07 when Raybestos and Federal-Mogul closed their aftermarket foundries and machining facilities in the US to move them to China. Some OE casting and machining is still done in the US. TRW is importing their A/M rotor from their eastern European plant if I’m not mistaken.

The price pressures of stores like Advance / Autozone / O’Rileys and the environmental restrictions have just forced the manufacturing out of this country. As you can see from this forum there is great interest in buying eBay products at a low price more for appearance and cost then for performance.

In the end what it comes down to is who are the companies that take pride in what they market, who are going to control the casting process for quality issues, and produce a rotor that is machines to OE tolerances. That is becoming harder as years go by.

Rotors have been cast from G2500, G2500a, G3500, G3500b, G3500c, etc. The grades will vary the carbon content to be more resistant to cracking and deformation. But even if you know the grade the process can alter the crystalline structure within the casting, or the heat treating process can vary the hardness. The quality of the casting pattern can affect the consistency of the rubbing discs of the disc assembly. There are just a lot of variables that make, or break a rotor’s functionality. So just like friction material, you often get what you pay for.

I tend to stay with prime foundation brake manufacturer’s parts in the aftermarket, companies like Continental (ATE), Bosch, TRW (Kelsey-Hayes) and Brembo when I can. But for reference I have a stack of OE rotors for my F-350 sitting in my shed as I have not found any aftermarket sourced rotor to be up to the standard of an OE supplied rotor. Note that the Lincoln “Motorcraft” rotors are not OE, but supplied by Federal-Mogul (Wagner) through the Ford Motorcraft program, not a bad rotor, but not OE.

I always buy solid rotors if the vehicles came that way. Unless you are Autocrossing and need the lighter weight, I stay away from drilled rotors completely. Just no street benefit. Slotted rotors will give you a means to reduce wet brake delay on application. It will also benefit a situation where the friction temperature is reaching the point where the composite is outgassing. However, if you are using a quality brake pad then the outgassing temperature will exceed any typical aggressive driving situation save going through the mountains with your hair on fire.

If you want slotted rotors for the looks, fine. They are a concern for getting the turned, but I’m to the point that I rarely recommend that anyone get rotors turned. If you are going to have them done on a bench lathe, just throw them away. On-car lathe, much better but is the operator trained to look for hard spots and is the finish going to be within OE specs? A pretty big study by two companies showed that 90% of the time shop work is too coarse.

Anti-corrosion coatings are good for the hat and vane sections (if applied there), but do no good on the rubbing surfaces. Cryo treatments, well, based on my former director who worked at Ford’s Scientific Research lab, it’s good until the rotor’s heat cycles negate it in about a week.

When you start looking at the aftermarket specialty companies it becomes very hard to see through the sales BS.

One of the biggest factors in how the rotors contribution to brake functionality is often overlooked. What is the installed runout? Can make an average rotor work great, and a “all the bells and whistles” rotor to be characterized as junk.

I was looking at Continental's ATE rotors too. Ended up with the OE front rotors I had (in the shed) and the Motorcraft rear rotors. Maybe next time.
Click to expand...

Very informative information. Thank you
 
Kumba said:
You rang? :D

I used Centric "Daily Driver" rotor blanks from rockauto on the front and AutoZone specials on the rear. Pads were Akebono Euro. I have zero complains. Whether or not the Autozone rotors end up being a mistake I will find out.
Click to expand...

The Akebono pads are great pads and you will have no problem doing 4 wheel drifts through the mountains with confidence.

And like the majority of people out there, you probably won't have issues with those rotors. Sometimes what I write makes it seem like the sky is falling. It's not. After 30 years in the friction business, 25 doing vehicle testing, I look at rotors as pieces of iron that get abused by the all important friction material.

The common issues consumers would have with A/M rotors is if the finish is too coarse it will take a longer time for the pads and rotors to burnish in an develop full braking ability. Later in use (20k to 30k), due to runout issues you can develop pulsation from Disc Thickness Variation (DTV) and develop hard spots from the subsequent thermal imbalance. But if the pads are abrasive enough, even that issue can be self correcting.
 
Has anyone found the rears from ATE? I was looking to use their Premium One line and can only find the fronts from retailers. Is there a part number anyone has laying around that will work for our rears?
 
kaball said:
Has anyone found the rears from ATE? I was looking to use their Premium One line and can only find the fronts from retailers. Is there a part number anyone has laying around that will work for our rears?
Click to expand...

The slotted atom pattern ones?
 
M4rk said:
The slotted atom pattern ones?
Click to expand...

Yep those would be the ones! I found a bit of info on them. The size would be 288mm for the rear and ATE Part number CW20708. I found a few on Ebay and another on rock auto. pulling the trigger later today.
 
I have those. If you check my progress thread, you may be able to decipher the P/N from the pictures of the rotors and boxes. Otherwise I could check the receipts this afternoon.
 
M4rk said:
I have those. If you check my progress thread, you may be able to decipher the P/N from the pictures of the rotors and boxes. Otherwise I could check the receipts this afternoon.
Click to expand...

Got it!

Fronts are ATE Premium one CW30725
Rears are ATE Premium one CW20708
 
TooManyToys,

Sorry to hearabout your personal issues. I hope everything works out. It seems we all have our yokes, (burdens), to bear.

Thank you for your input. Lots of information! You have pretty much confirmed my thoughts, based on my own experience. STAY WITH BLANKS!!! I'm not interested in looks, but best performance!!! I guess I was starting to buy into the hype of all the sales pitches, and I have noticed a change in that. The pitch has gone from outgassing to more controlled wet braking over the last few months. However, I was suprised to read your comments on cryo rotors. I understand, (to a degree... through welding), how the crystaline structure of metal is altered. So the cold "metal reorganization" is negated by the "heat reorganization". I'll buy that! I have also read alot of issues with coated rotors, and was wondering about that. That was my main reason for staying away from ATE (Continental). However... I am wondering if the diamond cut rotors may offer a compromise of the "best of both worlds". On another note... I learned how to turn brake rotors in high school (over 25 years ago). I have no problem with turning them on a bench lathe, but only because I learned how to check runout at the hub. For the longest time, I have been able to turn my own rotors at a local Napa store, because I built a rapport with them. I used to bitch at them because the didn't have it set up properly, and I could always tell when the bit was dull by the sound. It seems nowadays, that everyone runs their lathe too fast, and deep, for the sake of the almighty dollar. Yes... even dealerships are guilty of this. I learned from the real masters, and have noticed a change in the quality of the castings. That oppourtunity at Napa is gone, since they have sold their lathe. Maybe it's time to make friends with the local O'Reillys. As far as rotors for your F-350, you might want to check out Raybestos PG's. I ran Napa premiums on my F-150 4x4 for years, (I could put that truck through a power slide you wouldn't believe), and recently switched to Raybestos in 2010. They were "made in USA", (51% labor and machining of course), and have been impressed with the quality. Ordered from broncograveyard.com. The whole rotor thing is definitely a maze. I would be curious though, (based on your experience), who you feel makes ther best casted, high carbon blanks. I am leaning toward the Bosch,(but no way to tell if they are high carbon for the LS), but I do have to admit, that the SP-Performance diamond cut rotors, have me curious ,http://www.sp-performance.com/Diamond_slot.htm, Plus SP offer a lifetime warranty against cracking.

Thanks ---Mike---
 
Mike,

Taking care of Mom is just a part of life.

Warning, not proofed.

The coating issue depends on what they are doing. If coating then machining, no big deal as they are back to the virgin cast iron rubbing surface where it counts. If it is a wearable coating on the rubbing surface, then it only delays the burnishing of the pads and rotors and optimum braking will just take longer.

I too have no issue when I turn a rotor myself. What you were doing to great and 100 times better then 99.99% of the people do in the field. A few decades back I had bought a Ammco “Rotunda” branded lathe for my test facility. Rare bird in that it was independently and electronically controlled for feed and rpm. You could develop any finish you wanted. We used to have “Train the Trainer” classes at our facility for the nationwide service companies and I don’t think any of those people ever saw this model.

When I used to train about using a bench lathe I went a step further. Zeroing the hub runout is a great step and the way any machinist would approach lathe turning. But another important factor, and why the on-car lathes have become so recommended by the auto manufacturers, is that hub runout needs to be considered as well as the assembled stack of tolerances. The ideal method with a bench lathe is to nut down the rotor on the hub, measure and mark the rotor for its runout and indexing then duplicate the mounted runout on the lathe. This was how I used to show the trainers the best method before the on-car lathes became available. The comeback always used to be that the mechanics can’t afford the time to do that. I would use a stopwatch and show the few minutes it added to the job and state this was “insurance” that the mechanic was buying (just like playing blackjack) as to not have a non-paying comeback to the repair. It was a hard sell and I doubt make it past the exiting door. But the technique and necessity of indexing a rotor to the hub, either with a turned rotor or new one, usually was taken home to use in their training classes of the field mechanics.

Minimizing installed runout is SO important to preventing the pulsation issue mislabeled “rotor warping” when in reality it is Disc Thickness Variation (DTV) from uneven wear of the rotor. People are good as measuring a rotor after it has a pulsation issue and finding that it’s installed runout is excessive, yet they never check / install the rotor to see if that runout was there to start. Not that you can’t have a rotor that will change its runout over time. This may be due to improper technique in fastening of the wheel, or more to this discussion, improper casting technique of the rotor itself (cheap rotors) leaving stress concentrations that alter the rotor in it’s fastened state during heat cycling. You will find some of us in the brake engineering roles loosening and retightening our wheels after a week or two of driving with new rotors just from old habits.

The other big issue for the service industry is telling if the rotor has a hard spot within it. It can be pretty simple, but only after you have machined the surface. Kind of hard to have the customer pay for machining of a rotor to find it has a hard spot then ask them to pay for a new rotor. In your training of a brake lathe did you receive information on how to tell this?

Thanks for the suggestion of the PG rotors in place of the F-350 OE rotors, but you’ll have to pry the OE rotors from my cold dead hands. I was the vehicle testing project manager on the friction side of the ’99 and up F-350 production vehicles so I know the brake system quite well. The differences between an OE developed rotor and a knock off aftermarket rotor from ANY company is quite substantial. Not that an quality aftermarket rotor is that bad, but they just can’t put the engineering and testing into the aftermarket price.

Your switching from NAPA premiums to Raybestos PG rotors gets you back into the maze. Raybestos has been the primary supplier of NAPA’s brake parts for the last three decades, private labeling their parts to NAPA just as we did to other companies.

Honestly I’m not sure if Bosch is still manufacturing rotors and drums out of their Johnson City, TN plant. Bosch was trying to negotiate with the union in ’09 for potential closure of the plant, which has been unprofitable for years. Akebono has since bought Bosch’s brake business, although they will retain the Bosch marketing for quite some time.

As far as those rotors carbon content, usually the better companies will vary that depending on what is needed for the application, and there are more alloys then what I noted in my earlier message. Cheaper suppliers tend to use one alloy across the board for saving costs. In that area I would rely on what a well known quality company will supply as they don’t want to get it wrong.

From what I’ve been told by rotor engineers is that one of the aspects in OE development is using carbon content to alter the natural frequency of a brake rotor (an eye of newt area), and probably what is behind Bosch’s marketing of their “Quiet Cast” rotor. Although like other aftermarket sales points I’m not sure if that is carried through on all aftermarket applications. Actually brake drums are much more challenging then rotors as not only do they have to deal with the thermal cycling, but also survive the distortion stresses of becoming elliptical from the brake shoe forces under high pressure applications. Even one tire revolution has a lot of motion.

We would start an OE development program about 3 years before platform launch, and during that time it was not unusually to have the rotor design change. The are three basic parts of a brake rotor: The hat mounting section; The two rubbing discs; And the rotor vanes (non-solid rotor). The hat section needs to robust enough to keep the rubbing discs true though both the heating cycles as well as from the brake torque. Those with a deep hat section like the F-350 rotors, which take on the high torque values of that vehicles caliper, need to be well designed to stay true (they do). In comparison, Jeep on the ‘90’s ZJ / XJ (and to some extent later years) have as deep of a hat but people have issues with brake pulsation over and over, mainly due to the torque twisting of the thin hat and subsequent high runout and DTV development.

The rubbing discs need to be thick enough as to no add excessive unsprung weight while still having enough mass for initial thermal absorption. Oh, and rubbing discs are typically designed to that spec, and then additional thickness is added for wear and resurfacing. Resurfacing a rotor won’t get it below its design limit so it has more of a tendency to “warp”. You can always tell when a rotor designer has screwed the pouch on a rubbing disc or vanes when you can see a color difference on the rubbing surface between where the vane sidewall is and the hollow section. Jeeps are good at this too.

The vane design is critical for thermal rejection, and often the area that gets modified during pre-production testing. There are three primary vane designs - straight, curved and post. These are usually played with to improve high temperature rejection, but noise can be another factor as well since the rotor is the loudspeaker of the brake assembly. If a rotor is being designed for racing with holes in it, the vanes will be altered to keep the airflow equal across the entire rubbing surface. If like many in the aftermarket you just put holes in a rotor designed (hopefully designed) with a solid rubbing surface the airflow is compromised at the ID and the result is a hotter ID then ideal. Depending on the wheel end design, you can end up with higher temperatures at the hub and bearing.

The straight vane is the simplest to manufacture and often you will find that while the OE rotor may be curved or post vane, the aftermarket industry will fall back to straight vane to reduce manufacturing costs. Vane channels should be designed so they get the best air throw from the hat section to the OD. But sometimes the optimal vane channel count will change from say a 28 count to 27 or 29 in order to break up the rotors nodes.

Rotors are like a cymbal, and as with everything have a natural frequency. And if you look at a rotor after it’s hit with a hammer in its free state you will find it looks like a wave washer.

cymatic1.jpg


Does the same when bolted up too, just at a different frequency, and why wheel design matters (hub contact). I’ve been through several product launches in my career where brake noise was evident only with some optional wheels on that vehicle platform. So sometimes the vane count will change, or chamfers will be added to the brake pads so the pad's width will not bridge the rotor nodes and get it excited. And that also explains that while a specific brake pad may be quiet with OE rotors, but when an aftermarket rotor is installed with a different design, they end up being noisy.

So sometimes the rotor manufacturer will change the rotor vane count for noise, or may go to a post vane or curved vane design. Although the curved vane style is usually invoked for added cooling. An example of the post vane used on the ’99-04 Ford Superduty and straight vane used on the ’05 and up Superduty, both examples supplied OE by TRW (Kelsey-Hayes).



Notice how thick those rubbing discs are with the Superduty, a vehicle with 9,000 to 13,000lbs GVW. More mass needed for the massive thermal absorption before it starts thermal rejection to the air..

The critical point being getting enough air flowing through the rotor at speed, since the rotor is mostly statically cooled at speeds below 25mph, a problem for city driving and when brake temperatures can be their highest - unless you are going through the mountains like Kumba. But if the issue is mostly with city traffic temperature, then you may see a change to the post vane as it has a higher vane surface area for thermal dissipation without airflow.

OK, tired of typing.....

Please don't anyone quote this long post!
 
Ok, getting close. Whatever I choose, it will be blanks. Looked at Zimmermans, but had a hard time finding part numbers. It seems online retailers are scarce for these. What I found was for the comparable Jag, but no one had both front and rears. On top of this, it seems Zimmerman is now putting a coating on their rotors. However it is easily removable with brake cleaner, and seems to cause issues with certain brake pads, so they are out of the running. Too bad. They seem to make a quality product otherwise. So that leaves the following. All prices are for a set of 4, and include shipping and/or tax.

Bosch Quietcast - $184 from a local retailer, with a lifetime warranty. However, they will be discontinuing these. Makes me wonder if there is an issue, or maybe they just aren't selling. When I asked them what they warranty replacement would be, they said Wagner. Not a bad substitute.

Ate Premium One - $364 Fronts from one vendor, rears from another. This saves me $40 from ordering from one of them. Not sure about noise issues with the slots, and prolonged break in from the coating. On top of that they are the most expensive for a one time use option.

Ebc blanks - $191 From reading many forums, their rotors seem to have questionable issues, depending on the vehicle, and pads used. These would be my last choice.

Brembo Blanks - $248 or with the Stoptech braided hoses for an additional $90, which comes to $338. This seems to be the one I am leaning towards. However, I think they are now being casted in China. :mad: Wouldn't be any way to tell, until I opened the box.

I considered Ford redbox, But why not just buy Wagners. These can be had for $130 on line, or for $185 locally with a lifetime warranty. I like the warranty on these and the Bosch, because you could get a long supply of rotors. Both appear to be made in USA, but I feel there are better quality rotors out there for this vehicle.

Ford Bluebox - $345 with my discount. Possibly more off with the right person. Surprisingly, these are still available. No complaints about my original set. They have held up for 90,000 miles. However, they are the 2nd most expensive. That would be ok, if there is enough meat to be machined once.

Pads are going to be Akebonos, and are already in hand for $140 F and R.

So it comes down to, (in order of choice)...

1 - Brembos

2 - Ford Bluebox

3 - Bosch/Wagner

Any opinions??? HELP, my brain is melting!!! :runaway:
 
Ford redbox (Motorcraft) and the less machined controlled Wagner sister are made and machined in China.

My vote - #2.
 
TMT,

How did I know you were going to say that. ^^^ :D According to Advance AP, the wagners are made in the USA, and I assume the Bosch's still are too, even after the union/employee issues with the Akebono purchase.

I have read many positive results, on many forums, about the Brembo/Akebono setup. This is on Bimmers, Audis, Mercedes, and Volvos. I was kinda hoping to get some feedback from someone using this combo on an LS.

However, I have absolutely no problem with your recommendation. Do you think that the Akebonos on all 4 corners, would be a good combination with this vehicle, or would it upset the brake balance. I am still open to a pad change if necessary. Also, Is there enough meat on the Bluebox rotors to be machined at least once?

On a side note concerning you last post... NO! I was never trained on identifying hard spots in rotors. It didn't seem to be an issue with the rotors back then. I was still driving cars with drums on all four corners. Talk about brake fade at 100mph!!! :eek: However, I noticed an issue with turning rotors about a decade ago. I noticed a pulsating change in "pitch" while machining a rotor, and figured it was "cooked". It started with the cheaper crap, and eventually moved its way into the better products. At that point, I always recommended replacement, with "top shelf" products. Those that trusted me, were ok with that. Those that didn't, I told that there was no warranty on the brake job.

Anymore, I cringe when somebody comes to me, asking for a brake job. I am not a certified shop! I am not bonded! I do this out of my own house, as a charity to people that cannot afford shop rates! I only do it for people that I know, will not sue me, if something goes wrong. especially if they want the cheaper crap!!! I charge $20 per axle, and that just covers materials I use, whether it takes 10 minutes, or an hour. Brake Klean and grease adds up. On top of that, if I find another issue, that is usually fixed at their expense for parts, with no charge for additional labor. Some brake jobs are for free!!! Before anybody asks, DON'T ASK!!! Find a reputable shop to do the work you can't! I am down to a cell phone plan now. Friends and family ONLY!

I recently did a brake job on a KIA. Everything was still factory original!!! His brake pads were worn at a taper. I cleaned everything up, greased everything, and made sure the calipers were functioning properly. After installing everything, I had him step on the brake pedal, while I checked for proper function. The pads still engaged at at an angle. There was no binding between the pads and the caliper!!! I told him there was an issue i couldn't figure out, and refused to take his money. He insisted on paying me anyway, and told me it wasn't a problem. The only thing I can figure out, is that the piston location, was off just enough, that it was cocking the pads during application. I should have taken measurements, but I didn't. I didn't want to tell this guy he bought a junk vehicle! I guess there is a reason these cars cost $5000!!! How do I live with this on my conscious???

At the same time, I have done much work on my ex-wifes vehicle, and she is still very much well and alive. :D No malice whatsoever. Many other friends too, when they ran into unexpected problems. I ate the difference on labor, because they couldn't afford it.

Then I get this vehicle. I think "no problem, American iron". I look underneath, and see all the aluminum, and think to myself, oh F, what did I get myself into. I get the factory manuals. Then I learn it has 15 different control modules, and that it has a proprietary system, that is being used in current Ford vehicles. I want an upgrade over what the factory specs were on this vehicle. Maybe Jag 320's on the front, with factory rotors are the way to go. Maybe brembos, at original specs, will work out. Maybe I should stay with the stock application, but i am always looking for better. I just want to make sure I don't go in the reverse direction.

Any input would be helpful. Thanks, ---Mike---
 
http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28383/federalmogul_will_close_missouri_brake_part_plants.aspx


Akebono is a responsible company and would use the proper balance in selecting the front and rear pad formulations.

The pitch change can be a hard spot, thickness variation or the rotor on the lathe with excessive runout due to sloppiness of the lathe adapters. The best way to check for hardness is by using sandpaper to smooth the rotor turning peaks while the rotor is still mounted. If you feel the sandpaper grabbing and releasing, that is when it transitioning between the soft and hard surfaces. You can then train yourself to look at the surface for the shiny hard spots.
 
I didn't say I believed the guy from Advance. Otherwise I would already have the rotors in hand. It seems from what you are saying, that your job was outsourced. I am sorry. If it's any consolation, I am one of a few, that gives a crap, and I preach to anyone who will listen, and not give in to their pocketbook. F China!!! They will, and are going to be the downfall of this country. All I can say at this point, is that our grandkids better learn to speak chinese now. I guess I am looking at spending about $345 on rotors.

Thank you for the info on how to detect hard spots. I will use this in the future.

---Mike---
 
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