Mrs. Clinton is No Iron Lady

Calabrio

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Things Are Tough All Over
But Mrs. Clinton is no Iron Lady.


Friday, November 9, 2007 12:01 a.m. EST

The story as I was told it is that in the early years of her prime ministership, Margaret Thatcher held a meeting with her aides and staff, all of whom were dominated by her, even awed. When it was over she invited her cabinet chiefs to join her at dinner in a nearby restaurant. They went, arrayed themselves around the table, jockeyed for her attention. A young waiter came and asked if they'd like to hear the specials. Mrs. Thatcher said, "I will have beef."

Yes, said the waiter. "And the vegetables?"

"They will have beef too."

Too good to check, as they say. It is certainly apocryphal, but I don't want it to be. It captured her singular leadership style, which might be characterized as "unafraid."

She was a leader.

Margaret Thatcher would no more have identified herself as a woman, or claimed special pleading that she was a mere frail girl, or asked you to sympathize with her because of her sex, than she would have called up the Kremlin and asked how quickly she could surrender.

She represented a movement. She was its head. She was great figure, a person in history, and she was a woman. She was in it for serious reasons, not to advance the claims of a gender but to reclaim for England its economic freedom, and return its political culture to common sense. Her rise wasn't symbolic but actual.

In fact, she wasn't so much a woman as a lady. I remember a gentleman who worked with her speaking of her allure, how she'd relax after a late-night meeting and you'd walk by and catch just the faintest whiff of perfume, smoke and scotch. She worked hard and was tough. One always imagined her lightly smacking some incompetent on the head with her purse, for she carried a purse, as a lady would. She is still tough. A Reagan aide told me that after she was incapacitated by a stroke she flew to Reagan's funeral in Washington, went through the ceremony, flew with Mrs. Reagan to California for the burial, and never once on the plane removed her heels. That is tough.

The point is the big ones, the real ones, the Thatchers and Indira Gandhis and Golda Meirs and Angela Merkels, never play the boo-hoo game. They are what they are, but they don't use what they are. They don't hold up their sex as a feint: Why, he's not criticizing me, he's criticizing all women! Let us rise and fight the sexist cur.

When Hillary Clinton suggested that debate criticism of her came under the heading of men bullying a defenseless lass, an interesting thing happened. First Kate Michelman, the former head of NARAL and an Edwards supporter, hit her hard. "When unchallenged, in a comfortable, controlled situation, Sen. Clinton embraces her elevation into the 'boys club.' " But when "legitimate questions" are asked, "she is quick to raise the white flag and look for a change in the rules."

Then Mrs. Clinton changed tack a little and told a group of women in West Burlington, Iowa, that they were going to clean up Washington together: "Bring your vacuum cleaners, bring your brushes, bring your brooms, bring your mops." It was all so incongruous--can anyone imagine the 20th century New Class professional Hillary Clinton picking up a vacuum cleaner? Isn't that what downtrodden pink collar workers abused by the patriarchy are for?

But even better, and more startling, people began to giggle. At Mrs. Clinton, a woman who has never inspired much mirth. Suddenly they were remembering the different accents she has spoken with when in different parts of the country, and the weird laugh she has used on talk shows. A few days ago new poll numbers came out--neck and neck with Barack Obama in Iowa, her lead slipping in New Hampshire. There is a sense that Sen. Obama is rising, a sense for the first time in this election cycle that Mrs. Clinton just may be in a fight, a real one, one she could actually lose.

It's all kind of wonderful, isn't it? Someone indulged in special pleading and America didn't buy it. It's as if the country this week made it official: We now formally declare that the woman who uses the fact of her sex to manipulate circumstances is a jerk.

This is a victory for true feminism, in its old-fashioned sense of a simple assertion of the equality of men and women. We might not have so resoundingly reached this moment without Mrs. Clinton's actions and statements. Thank you, Mrs. Clinton.

A word on toughness. Mrs. Clinton is certainly tough, to the point of hard. But toughness should have a purpose. In Mrs. Thatcher's case, its purpose was to push through a program she thought would make life better in her country. Mrs. Clinton's toughness seems to have no purpose beyond the personal accrual of power. What will she do with the power? Still unclear. It happens to be unclear in the case of several candidates, but with Mrs. Clinton there is a unique chasm between the ferocity and the purpose of the ferocity. There is something deeply unattractive in this, and it would be equally so if she were a man.

I wonder if Sen. Obama, as he makes his climb, understands the kind of quiet cheering he is beginning to garner from some Republicans, and from those not affiliated with either party. They see him as a Democrat who could cure the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton sickness.

I call it that because it seems to me now less like a dynastic tug of war than a symptom of deterioration, a lazy, unserious and faintly corrupt turn to be taken by the oldest and greatest democracy in the history of man. And I say sickness because on some level I think it is driven by a delusion: "We will be safe with these ruling families, whom we know so well." But we won't. They have no special magic. Dynasticism brings with it a sense of deterioration. It is dispiriting.

I am not sure of the salience of Mr. Obama's new-generational approach. Mrs. Clinton's generation, he suggests, is caught in the 1960s, fighting old battles, clinging to old divisions, frozen in time, and the way to get past it is to get past her. Maybe this will resonate. But I don't think Mrs. Clinton is the exemplar of a generation, she is the exemplar of a quadrant within a generation, and it is the quadrant the rest of us of that generation do not like. They came from comfort and stability, visited poverty as part of a college program, fashionably disliked their country, and cultivated a bitterness that was wholly unearned. They went on to become investment bankers and politicians and enjoy wealth, power or both.

Mr. Obama should go after them, not a generation but a type, the smug and entitled. No one really likes them. They showed it this week.

Ms. Noonan is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and author of "John Paul the Great: Remembering a Spiritual Father" (Penguin, 2005), which you can order from the OpinionJournal bookstore. Her column appears Fridays on OpinionJournal.com.
 
Well the Iron Age is long past.
And no Iron Man has emerged from the GOP.
We now live in a world of alloys and sophisticated composites.
America no longer owns 50% of the world GNP with 4% of it's population like in 1950,
and is slowly declining against emerging superpowers China and India. The US dollar has dropped steadily against all major world currencies and the leftist CDN dollar is now worth (gasp!) 1.10!
Our national debt just surpassed 9 TRILLION dollars and this happened under a Republican administration which is supposed to hold down spending like the wise father of the family.
Enough people are tired of the dumbing down of America and the perfidities, values and mendacities of the Bush administration and want a change just for some fresh air.
Sometimes to the chagrin of the righteous, narrow minded prayers are not answered and they are put in their place off to the side by the voters and the popular culture.
Hillary may have stumbled in her last debate but then so did Reagan in his second debate with Carter.
There was some real doubt about him until he came out on top in the 3rd one.
Today's situation in it's complexity does not offer itself up for the creation of legendary singleminded US leaders.
Bush has been very singleminded in his goals, even professing to be put here in this time by a higher power, but that hasn't helped his popularity in the twilight of his second term.
As things seem to be ending for the Republicans for now and the voters are ready to give them the boot Bush seems to finally show some humilty by admitting mistakes have been made.
Americans love a winner and a rags to riches story like Bill and Hillary supplies this.
Although never poor they weren't born lucky with a silver spoon in their mouths the way Bush was.
The Clinton's seemingly came out of nowhere and have managed to succeed for so many years and build a dynasty despite their personal shortcomings.
They are a Beverly Hillbillies fractured fairy tale and thus have a lot of appeal to many except the anti intellectuals who long through rose colored glasses for a Leave it to Beaver time long past when things were a lot simpler.
People who made themselves out of nothing is something that speaks for itself.
It is the essence of America.
Fatcats born into wealth and power is more like old European monarchies where the ruler is King and nepotism is the norm.
Of course the election is still a year away and there are many battles to be fought, so it's certainly not over till it's over.
This also brings to mind the old adage that the difference between a lawyer and a liar is just in the pronunciation.
 
I did not specifically say that I want Hillary to win (or did I?)
but I think governing should be done by wonks who live and breathe
this stuff. These are the best people qualified to attempt to succeed in this toughest of jobs and not lazyassed C student dim closedminded people who didn't become their own man (or woman) until giving up drinking into their 40's. (Although Churchill drank a bottle a day, but then again he had WWII to contend with, but was voted out after the war)
If anyone has been the Iron Man I suppose it's been Cheney, the real president.
With Bush as his pet prop (like an Avatar) Cheney has been able to try to bring most of his dreams of American supremacy in world affairs to reality
while avoiding the harshness the limelight can bring.
Bush can come across as Alfred E. Nueman from MAD Magazine with his grin and simple charm while Cheney moves forward repeating his mantra and consolidating power in the executive branch uninterupted without any oversight.
From a dispassionate point of view there is great delicious irony in that Hillary will inherit all the powers Cheney has pushed through for the executive should she win the election.
Politics is only a spectator blood sport for me and I don't think the end of the world as we know it will come should Hillary get elected.
You can only fool all of the people some of the time and should Hillary get elected the voters can vote her out if enough of them are unsatisfied with her.
In fact should Hillary get elected and fail, the voters will likely bring to power a much more right wing candidate than can be electable this time around. (IE Reagan-Carter)
The country is much too strong and resilient to go down the tubes
just because a Democrat happens to get elected again to the highest office. (If not it's not much of a country anyways)
Also the voters tend to elect a diametrically opposed congress almost all the time to keep a sober balance to governance.
The President can only do so much and needs congressional support
to succeed.
We can't just look at this in cartoon terms although it seems to be much more fun than the reality.
Rudy is fun with his multiple marraiges, mistresses, gay friends and pro abortion stances.
Despite all this he has just won the endorsement of Pat Robertson.
The desire to win certainly makes for strange bedfellows and gives some insight to what my father said about a human being is a contradiction in terms.
 
Wow 04SCTLS, you spew out leftist drivel like you honestly believe it. How very, very sad.

Did you read the original article past the first paragraph or just blurt out the first things that came to your mind?
 
04sctls

Bill and Hillary didn't make themselves out of nothing. They achieved their "success" by learning how to milk the system. Neither one of them has ever worked an honest, real job in their entire lives. Bill was a politician from day one and Hillary was a failed lawyer who was handed positions that she couldn't handle. Their entire history has been spotted by scandal, from the Rose Law Firm to Vince Foster to Monica to John Huang. They are corrupt liars and anyone who believes that they are the essence of America is a fool.

You also seem confused about Bush and Cheney. First you say that America is on the decline, then you say that Cheney has achieved his goals for American supremacy in world affairs. Then you say that these are Bush's goals. Then you say that America is too resilient to go down the tubes.

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1:8

I say the following with all sincerity and without guile or rancor: I strongly encourage you to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. In doing so you will educate yourself on what true American greatness means. I promise your education from government schools will pale in insignificant comparison.
 
Clinton aides plant student's question
http://web.grinnell.edu/sandb/questions.html
By PATRICK CALDWELL

The Iowa caucuses are known for their “living-room chats” where ordinary Iowans can meet candidates face-to-face and talk about what interests voters. When candidates have larger events or make major policy speeches, the crowds are bigger, but there is often still an opportunity for questions. But under the pressures of major media coverage, with polls narrowing in Iowa, campaigns can potentially control questions and coverage by planning questions ahead of time.

While no campaigns admit to this practice, at a recent Hillary Clinton campaign event in Newton, Iowa, some of the questions posed to the New York Senator were planned in advance, planting some audience members in the crowd.

On Tuesday Nov. 6, the Clinton campaign stopped at a biodiesel plant in Newton as part of a weeklong series of events to introduce her new energy plan. The event was clearly intended to be as much about the press as the Iowa voters in attendance, as a large press core helped fill the small venue. Reporters from many major national news outlets came to the small Iowa town, from such media giants as The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, the Associated Press, and CNN.

After her speech, Clinton accepted questions. But according to Grinnell College student Muriel Gallo-Chasanoff ’10, some of the questions from the audience were planned in advance. “They were canned,” she said. Before the event began, a Clinton staff member approached Gallo-Chasanoff to ask a specific question after Clinton’s speech. “One of the senior staffers told me what [to ask],” she said.


Clinton called on Gallo-Chasanoff after her speech to ask a question: what Clinton would do to stop the effects of global warming. Clinton began her response by noting that young people often pose this question to her before delving into the benefits of her plan.

But the source of the question was no coincidence—at this event “they wanted a question from a college student,” Gallo-Chasanoff said. She also noted that staffers prompted Clinton to call on her and another who had been approached before the event, although Clinton used her discretion to select questions and called on people who had not been prepped before hand. Some of the questions asked were confusing and clearly off-message.

The practice of planting audience members to ask specific questions does not appear to be a common practice, or at least not a politically acceptable one. “Our campaign does not plant questions,” said Lauren Rose, Communications Director for Governor Bill Richardson’s campaign. When asked what she would think of other campaigns who did plant audience members, Rose said, “I think campaigns should give Iowa caucus-goers the chance to ask the questions they want.”

When asked if the John Edwards campaign employed such practices, Jenni Lee, Edwards’s Iowa Press Secretary said, “No, they ask whatever they want.”

But the Clinton campaign also denied the practice of planting. “It’s not a practice of our campaign to ask people to ask specific questions,” said Mark Daley, Clinton’s Iowa Communications Director. Daley said that when an event is focusing on a specific topic, such as health care or Iraq, “people are encouraged to ask questions in these regards,” but denied that they are given specific questions.

But when directly asked if his statements meant that planting does not occur in the Hillary campaign, Daley could only say, “to the best of my knowledge.”

“[Planting] is not something that is encouraged in our campaign,” he said.

The event in Newton was a particularly major policy speech, more informative than rallying. The campaign’s apparent tactics at this event may have little or no relationship with the questions at less formal campaign events.

Other presidential campaigns were approached for comment on the topic, but no others responded before the paper went to press.

Serving as a stark contrast to the Clinton event was Richardson’s campaign stop at Grinnell College the night before. Richardson’s appearance was designed as an opportunity for voters to interact with the candidate, and not the media event that Clinton held in Newton. In lower-profile events like Richardson’s (and most of Clinton’s) candidates face many challenging, presumably spontaneous questions.
 
"You also seem confused about Bush and Cheney. First you say that America is on the decline, then you say that Cheney has achieved his goals for American supremacy in world affairs. Then you say that these are Bush's goals. Then you say that America is too resilient to go down the tubes."

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1:8

I said "Cheney has been able to try to bring most of his dreams of American supremacy in world affairs to reality
while avoiding the harshness the limelight can bring."

I did not say that Cheney had achieved his goals, I said he had been trying to bring them to reality. I don't see where I've been doubleminded
You read my sentences too quickly.
I did not say these were Bush's plans. The Bush administration is Cheney, when it comes to deciding defence and military matters.
Cheney's thing has been America as a superpower since 1960.
With the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 90's he and Rumsfeld
started putting together their plans for American supremacy.
In 2001 9/11 gave Cheney the opportunity he needed to put his plans into action which included invading Iraq to topple Saddam.
Since the Iraq invasion was in 2003, 4 years is certainly not enough time to succeed in trying to implement a plan of this magnitude.
Now we're talking staying at least another 10 years and putting in permanent bases.
Bush is just along for the ride on the war.
America is too strong to go down the tubes no matter who gets elected.
However it has been in decline since the Arab oil embargo of 1973 and then the Iranian Revolution of 1979 with the spectacle of Americans being taken hostage and held by group of people who are now the government over there.
America's dependence on foreign oil, combined with it's fear of nuclear power plants means there's a lot of more money leaving the country for the last 30-35 years.
That's one reason we're 9 Trillion dollars in debt.

Anyways, your take on the Clintons is that the're a bunch of Grifters
that have conned the american public cynically for years.
Hillary is an unscrupulous marxist, leninist, stalinist who if elected will
destroy America with her policies and social spending because all she wants is power.
Someone has to play devils advocate here and respond with something more than a "Here Here"
when you guys post these articles without any commentary you've added.
 
huh?

04SCTLS, you take some wierd, and unproven assumptions and just jump off the deep end. Must be living in Bizzaro-world or something
 
huh?

04SCTLS, you take some wierd, and unproven assumptions and just jump off the deep end. Must be living in Bizzaro-world or something
Ditto. I can't begin to follow the tortuous windings of his consciousness.
 
It takes effort to write this stuff in response to your guys postings.
I never went to college, opting to go into business early, so I may ramble a bit sometimes in my thoughts.
I read a lot of periodicals on the internet and have a long memory.

It's easier to just post stuff.

Heres a post about bogus evidence the Bush administration and Cheney used to go to war. Kind of on par with the Gulf of Tonken
bogus "incident" that got us into Vietnam.

Something for you guys to chew up to keep things interesting here.

Reporting: Pennsylvania
FAKED PHOTOS HELPED LEAD U.S. INTO IRAQ
by Walter Brasch
American Reporter Correspondent'
Bloomsburg, Pa.

Printable version of this story

BLOOMSBURG, Pa. -- Add faked photos to the list of lies told by the Bush-Cheney Administration before its invasion of Iraq.

In a town hall meeting in Bloomsburg, Pa., this week, Rep. Paul Kanjorski, a 12-term congressman, said that shortly before Congress was scheduled to vote on authorizing military force against Iraq, top officials of the CIA showed select members of Congress three photographs it alleged were Iraqi Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), better known as drones. Kanjorski said he was told that the drones were capable of carrying nuclear, biological, or chemical agents, and could strike 1,000 miles inland of east coast or west coast cities.

Kanjorski said he and four or five other congressmen in the room were told drones on freighters could be headed to the U.S. Both President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice iwandered into and out of the briefing room, Kanjorski said.

Kanjorski said it was the second time he was called to the White House for a briefing. He had opposed giving the President the powers to go to war, and said that he hadn't changed his mind after a first meeting. Until he saw the pictures, Kanjorski said, "I hadn't thought that Iraq was a threat." That second meeting changed everything. After he left that meeting, said Kanjorski, he was willing to give the President the authorization he wanted since the drones "represented an imminent danger."

Kanjorski said he went to see Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), a retired Marine colonel. Murtha, said Kanjorski, "turned white" when told about the drones; Murtha, a former intelligence officer, believed that such information was classified.

Several years later, Kanjorski said, he learned that the pictures were "a goddamned lie," apparently taken by CIA photographers in the desert in the American Southwest. The drone story itself had already been disproved, although not many major media carried that clarifying story.

In October 2002, President Bush said in Cincinnati that Iraq had the ability to deliver weapons of mass destruction to eastern U.S. cities. He specifically referred to the drones as the delivery mechanisms that were ready to deliver weapons of mass destruction within 1,000 miles of the east or west coasts.

In that same speech, he claimed, "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles - far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations - in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work." Bush further claimed, "Surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons." Those claims were later proven false.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said that at the time the President made his speech, intelligence analysts had already discounted that threat. Nelson had told Florida Today in December 2003 that no analysts had "found anything that resembles an UAV that has that capability." Any drones that Iraq did have, John Pike, director of Global Security, a major military and intelligence "think tank," told Florida Today, had limited range, and would not be able to target Tel Aviv, let alone the U.S.

Nelson, on the floor of the Senate in January 2004, said that the information presented by the Administration was crucial in getting him and others to authorize a pre-emptive strike.

In a four-day period after that meeting in northeast Pennsylvania, Rep. Kanjorski did not return phone calls to follow up on his statements. The Department of Defense and the CIA did not comment. Others who could confirm the briefing were unavailable.

Assisting on this story were Bill Frost, and John and Sandie Walker. Dr. Brasch, an award-winning journalist and journalism professor, is author of America's Unpatriotic Acts: The Federal Government's Violation of Constitutional and Civil Rights and 'Unacceptable': The Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina. His next biook, Sinking the Ship of State: The Presidency of George W. Bush, will be published soon
 
I think I will check out Ayn Rand.
She was a Russian immigrant and an athiest so her works and thinking are sure not to be compromised by religion.
Also she despised many Republicans and some Democrats too.
As an Industrialist she had a special place in her heart for people like me.
Should be a good read.

This from a Google search:

The theme of Atlas Shrugged is "The role of man's mind in society." Rand upheld the industrialist as one of the most admirable members of any society and fiercely opposed the popular resentment accorded to industrialists.

Rand held that the only moral social system is laissez-faire capitalism. Her political views were strongly individualist and hence anti-statist and anti-Communist. She exalted what she saw as the heroic American values of rational egoism and individualism. As a champion of rationality, Rand also had a strong opposition to mysticism and religion, which she believed helped foster a crippling culture acting against individual human happiness and success. Rand detested many prominent liberal and conservative politicians of her time, including prominent anti-Communists, such as Harry S. Truman, Ronald Reagan, Hubert Humphrey, and Joseph McCarthy. She opposed US involvement in World War I, World War II[41] and the Korean War, although she also strongly denounced pacifism: "When a nation resorts to war, it has some purpose, rightly or wrongly, something to fight for – and the only justifiable purpose is self-defense."[42] She opposed U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War, "If you want to see the ultimate, suicidal extreme of altruism, on an international scale, observe the war in Vietnam – a war in which American soldiers are dying for no purpose whatever,"[42] but also felt that unilateral American withdrawal would be a mistake of appeasement that would embolden communists and the Soviet Union.[41] She said also that she considered the anti-Communist John Birch Society "futile, because they are not for capitalism but merely against communism."[43]
Rand is considered one of the three founding mothers (along with Rose Wilder Lane and Isabel Paterson) of modern American libertarianism
 
It takes effort to write this stuff in response to your guys postings.
I never went to college, opting to go into business early, so I may ramble a bit sometimes in my thoughts.
I read a lot of periodicals on the internet and have a long memory.

It's easier to just post stuff.

Heres a post about bogus evidence the Bush administration and Cheney used to go to war. Kind of on par with the Gulf of Tonken
bogus "incident" that got us into Vietnam.

Something for you guys to chew up to keep things interesting here.

Reporting: Pennsylvania
FAKED PHOTOS HELPED LEAD U.S. INTO IRAQ
by Walter Brasch
American Reporter Correspondent'
Bloomsburg, Pa.

Printable version of this story

BLOOMSBURG, Pa. -- Add faked photos to the list of lies told by the Bush-Cheney Administration before its invasion of Iraq.

In a town hall meeting in Bloomsburg, Pa., this week, Rep. Paul Kanjorski, a 12-term congressman, said that shortly before Congress was scheduled to vote on authorizing military force against Iraq, top officials of the CIA showed select members of Congress three photographs it alleged were Iraqi Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), better known as drones. Kanjorski said he was told that the drones were capable of carrying nuclear, biological, or chemical agents, and could strike 1,000 miles inland of east coast or west coast cities.

Kanjorski said he and four or five other congressmen in the room were told drones on freighters could be headed to the U.S. Both President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice iwandered into and out of the briefing room, Kanjorski said.

Kanjorski said it was the second time he was called to the White House for a briefing. He had opposed giving the President the powers to go to war, and said that he hadn't changed his mind after a first meeting. Until he saw the pictures, Kanjorski said, "I hadn't thought that Iraq was a threat." That second meeting changed everything. After he left that meeting, said Kanjorski, he was willing to give the President the authorization he wanted since the drones "represented an imminent danger."

Kanjorski said he went to see Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), a retired Marine colonel. Murtha, said Kanjorski, "turned white" when told about the drones; Murtha, a former intelligence officer, believed that such information was classified.

Several years later, Kanjorski said, he learned that the pictures were "a goddamned lie," apparently taken by CIA photographers in the desert in the American Southwest. The drone story itself had already been disproved, although not many major media carried that clarifying story.

In October 2002, President Bush said in Cincinnati that Iraq had the ability to deliver weapons of mass destruction to eastern U.S. cities. He specifically referred to the drones as the delivery mechanisms that were ready to deliver weapons of mass destruction within 1,000 miles of the east or west coasts.

In that same speech, he claimed, "Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles - far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations - in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work." Bush further claimed, "Surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons." Those claims were later proven false.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said that at the time the President made his speech, intelligence analysts had already discounted that threat. Nelson had told Florida Today in December 2003 that no analysts had "found anything that resembles an UAV that has that capability." Any drones that Iraq did have, John Pike, director of Global Security, a major military and intelligence "think tank," told Florida Today, had limited range, and would not be able to target Tel Aviv, let alone the U.S.

Nelson, on the floor of the Senate in January 2004, said that the information presented by the Administration was crucial in getting him and others to authorize a pre-emptive strike.

In a four-day period after that meeting in northeast Pennsylvania, Rep. Kanjorski did not return phone calls to follow up on his statements. The Department of Defense and the CIA did not comment. Others who could confirm the briefing were unavailable.

Assisting on this story were Bill Frost, and John and Sandie Walker. Dr. Brasch, an award-winning journalist and journalism professor, is author of America's Unpatriotic Acts: The Federal Government's Violation of Constitutional and Civil Rights and 'Unacceptable': The Federal Response to Hurricane Katrina. His next biook, Sinking the Ship of State: The Presidency of George W. Bush, will be published soon
Look, I'm really sorry if you feel criticized. I admit to being a big jaded since I've been doing this for a while. The most frustrating thing about reading your posts is that you post absolute conjecture as fact, and you do it with a storytelling tone, as if everyone knows it.

Example:

With the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 90's he and Rumsfeld
started putting together their plans for American supremacy.
In 2001 9/11 gave Cheney the opportunity he needed to put his plans into action which included invading Iraq to topple Saddam.
Since the Iraq invasion was in 2003, 4 years is certainly not enough time to succeed in trying to implement a plan of this magnitude.
Now we're talking staying at least another 10 years and putting in permanent bases.
Bush is just along for the ride on the war.
None of that can be proven. It is a pipe dream, not even an opinion shared by anyone in any mainstream, precisely because there is absolutely zero evidence for it.

And as far as Bush using evidence to take us into war, you are straddling the bright line of accusing him and Cheney of lying to the American public, which has been previously and thoroughly debunked on this thread and many other sites of high repute.

Furthermore:

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America�s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam�s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq�s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration�s policy towards Iraq, I don�t think there can be any question about Saddam�s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002


The above set of quotations has been verified as true by snopes.com
 
So you can fool all of the people some of the time.
You even list a quote from your arch nemesis Hillary to advance your arguement.
We've been preparing Saddam for a fall ever since he had the temerity to invade Kuwait and threaten American dominance of the middle east and the DemocratoRepublican ruling elite.
Biological weapons are notoriously ineffective so far and lumping in WW I type poison gas as a weapon of mass destruction is just a convenience in terms to confuse the public.
So where are all these nuclear weapons labs and facilities now that we've invaded?
Saddam was a tyrant like Stalin but he knew how to keep Iraq's hostile factions at bay. We didn't care what he did gassing the Kurds when he was our buddy fighting the Iranians for us.
But now that it was convenient for us we made a big deal out of it as to the proof that Saddam was a threat to the world.
Saddam was a realist and wanted to survive.
When his luck changed after Desert Storm,
he decided to mothball a nuclear program in any capacity.
None of these authentic quotes offer any real scrutable evidence to support their conclusions. Facts were pulled out of context and pieced together to make the Iraq WMD arguements. The whole thing was ordered up from the intellegence agencies by the Bush administration and unelected Neo Con think tanks to make their case for a war they'd wanted for a long time.
You haven't said anything here that reasonably refutes the faked photos contention.
Politicians know that if you repeat something often enough even if it's an outright lie, people begin to believe it because they heard it more than once from more than one person who's an authority figure.
Cheney's dreams of Pax Americana and plans of invading Iraq
are a good part of the opinions put out in "Why we Fight" which you have dismissed almost out of hand as anti american propaganda.
I find the movie very well made and thoughtful and the arquements and observations presented there about 9/11 as an opportunity to implement these Pax Americana plans to be very compelling and believable. It should be required viewing in any college current history and foreign affairs class as a starting point for discussion.
Since Republicans claim the colleges all have a liberal bias I'm surprised it hasn't been incorporated in the curriculum.
Another movie I saw recently called "No End in Sight" describes how our ineptness has created the insurgency in the first place.
When we first invaded in Iraq, the people there had hope.
Instead of utilizing the exhisting military there we disbanded the Iraqi army and sent trained soldiers all home without any pay or work to do.
We did not secure the weapons depots and these soldiers broke in and took a lot of equipment and ordinance that they knew how to use.
Saddam had also let all the criminals out of the jails to instill anarchy.
The American forces basically said they were not there to do police work and did nothing to stop the looting and lawlessness.
3000 year old antiquities going back to the beginnings of civilization
were stolen or destroyed.
We just didn't care and decided to stand back and let things reach their end.This certainly didn't endear us to the locals.
We had no Marshall Plan for Iraq.
Hell the Bush administration couldn't even respond adequately to Hurricane Katrina.
You cannot say that this war was planned out very well.
Estimates of costs and casualties plus how long we'd have to be there were in hindsight ridiculously simple minded.
But this simplemindedness seems to be in my opinion (which I'm allowed to have) what best describes the Bush administration's whole approach to this war.
We're like Checker players when the world demands Chess.
America is now seen as inept, shortsighted, arrogant and just stupid by the rest of the world.
Stupid is as Stupid Does (sorry I couldn't resist)
We allowed North Korea to get their nuclear program going because
North Korea doesn't threaten American interests the way Iraq and Iran do.
The American media have given Bush and Cheney a free ride on the war.
They just blithly go along believing whatever the administration says
and don't do their job of cross examination and hard questions.
I think both these movies "Why We Fight" and "No End in Sight"
show the kinds of things the American media should be doing as the voice of the people and the watchdogs of democracy and truth.
The politicians have this opinion that the public doesn't need to know what's really going on.
I alway's had high marks in composition and an as a matter of fact the storytelling style is the best way to sell your views.
It's worked for Bush and Cheney.
I may be wrong, but IMO I consider the Iraq war adventure to be the greatest US foreign policy blunder in modern history.
It has played into the hands of Osama and instilled anti american hatred amongst people who would otherwise be indifferent if their friends and relatives hadn't been killed or wounded in what's been unleashed by our actions.
But then again, we're only checker players.
 
(Throws up hands)

I give up. You believe a bunch of propaganda fed to you by movies you've seen, written, directed, and produced by people with an agenda. You have zero proof of any assertion you've made. You excuse the statements made by the Democrats but hold Bush completely responsible. The same school of thought that asserts Bush is a buffoon and is a puppet of Cheney implies that Bush is clever enough to fool Hillary. What more needs to be said?

There really isn't any more point in discussing this with you. Please feel free to speak to yourself in cyberspace with your 50-one-liners posts.
 
Ok , I'll accept your surrender.
I'm obviously getting under your skin here and it's exhasperating you.
At least you're not being rude and calling me names but instead politely metaphorically telling me to go jump into a lake.
I don't like Bush and Cheney (to put it mildly) and what they've done and you do.
I'm happy that the Constitution prevents them from running again
and look forward to the changing of the guard, whoever that may turn out to be.
I think I'll order Atlas Shrugged today like you suggested and educate myself some more to hone up my industrialist skills among other things.
We're running 24/7 now and I'll be putting in long hours for a while.
 

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