Israel Deliberately Attacks UN Post

RRocket said:
Oh, there is no question that Hezbollah is committing terrorism. Any my argument has never been otherwise. Nor have I said that Israel shouldn't protect itself. My whole rant was about Israel attacking civilian sites, and doing little to minimize civilian casualties. But it's a convenient argument for Israel to say "Terrorists use ________ so we bomb it". Gas stations, public transportation, roads, bridges, personal vehicles, hospitals, apartment buidlings, houses, airports, farm vehicles, TV stations, etc..There is little NOT being targeted. And certainly, if you are targeting civilian sites, you KNOW you are going to kill civilians. Does Hezbollah kill/fire on civilian sites? Yep. And it's wrong, and a terrorist attack. But that doesn't make it OK for Israel to do it either.

With their 220+ missile launches yesterday, Hez. killed a single civilian (thus far reported). And naturally, it's horrific, and people should be pissed about it. But no one is saying anything about all the civilians being killed in Lebanon. Is anyone pissed about it, except for me? Thus far, the children fatalities in Lebanon are far greater than ALL of the civilian AND military casualties in Israel. Call me anything you want...criticize me all you want...label me, whatever...but I just can't get on board with Israel with all the civilians being slaughtered in Lebanon.

Not to sound like a jackass, but you didn't answer the question. Imagine if you were an Israeli citizen and the rockets were aimed at you; what would you expect your government to do?

Just because Hezbollah has the sh!ttiest of sh!t aim in the world doesn't mean they are free from blame. I promise you if they could somehow kill 100 women & children with each of those 220+ rockets they would do it because that ultimately is their goal (killing women & children). That brings up another question, what if Hezbollah killed 1,000 Israeli citizens (possible if they had better aim) with those 220+ rockets, would you feel different then?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Not to sound like a jackass, but you didn't answer the question. Imagine if you were an Israeli citizen and the rockets were aimed at you; what would you expect your government to do?

Just because Hezbollah has the sh!ttiest of sh!t aim in the world doesn't mean they are free from blame. I promise you if they could somehow kill 100 women & children with each of those 220+ rockets they would do it because that ultimately is their goal (killing women & children). That brings up another question, what if Hezbollah killed 1,000 Israeli citizens (possible if they had better aim) with those 220+ rockets, would you feel different then?

Ron doesn't feel that it's fair that the Israelis are better at killing than the Hezbollah terrorists are. He would feel better if more Israelis were dying.

I guess he'd have been just as upset in WWII, when we killed 1.59 million Japanese, while they only killed 92,000 Americans.

Got to be FAIR!

RRocket said:
But no one is saying anything about all the civilians being killed in Lebanon. Is anyone pissed about it, except for me?

Uh - yeah, the entire Arab Islamic world, the corrupt United Nations, the Mainstream Media, and --- you.

At least we all know whose side you're on.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRocket
But no one is saying anything about all the civilians being killed in Lebanon. Is anyone pissed about it, except for me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossten
Uh - yeah, the entire Arab Islamic world, the corrupt United Nations, the Mainstream Media, and --- you.

At least we all know whose side you're on.


I'm not happy about the loss of innocent life on any side, but unfortunately I do not have the answer in how Israel can only kill Hezbollah militants when they operate out of civilian structures, dress in the local garments and surround themselves with civilians. So therefore, civilian deaths are unfortunate casualties of a war started by Hezbollah, so that's where the blame of any and all innocent deaths should lay.

Until someone can tell me how Israel is to magically pick off the Hezbollah troopers and not kill a single innocent (considering the situation); in my opinion, they should shut up. :)
 
This says it all...

August 04, 2006, 5:27 a.m.

The Brink of Madness
A familiar place.

By Victor Davis Hanson


When I used to read about the 1930s — the Italian invasion of Abyssinia, the rise of fascism in Italy, Spain, and Germany, the appeasement in France and Britain, the murderous duplicity of the Soviet Union, and the racist Japanese murdering in China — I never could quite figure out why, during those bleak years, Western Europeans and those in the United States did not speak out and condemn the growing madness, if only to defend the millennia-long promise of Western liberalism.

Of course, the trauma of the Great War was all too fresh, and the utopian hopes for the League of Nations were not yet dashed. The Great Depression made the thought of rearmament seem absurd. The connivances of Stalin with Hitler — both satanic, yet sometimes in alliance, sometimes not — could confuse political judgments.

But nevertheless it is still surreal to reread the fantasies of Chamberlain, Daladier, and Pope Pius, or the stump speeches by Charles Lindbergh (“Their [the Jews’] greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government”) or Father Coughlin (“Many people are beginning to wonder whom they should fear most — the Roosevelt-Churchill combination or the Hitler-Mussolini combination.”) — and baffling to consider that such men ever had any influence.

Not any longer.

Our present generation too is on the brink of moral insanity. That has never been more evident than in the last three weeks, as the West has proven utterly unable to distinguish between an attacked democracy that seeks to strike back at terrorist combatants, and terrorist aggressors who seek to kill civilians.

It is now nearly five years since jihadists from the Arab world left a crater in Manhattan and ignited the Pentagon. Apart from the frontline in Iraq, the United States and NATO have troops battling the Islamic fascists in Afghanistan. European police scramble daily to avoid another London or Madrid train bombing. The French, Dutch, and Danish governments are worried that a sizable number of Muslim immigrants inside their countries are not assimilating, and, more worrisome, are starting to demand that their hosts alter their liberal values to accommodate radical Islam. It is apparently not safe for Australians in Bali, and a Jew alone in any Arab nation would have to be discreet — and perhaps now in France or Sweden as well. Canadians’ past opposition to the Iraq war, and their empathy for the Palestinians, earned no reprieve, if we can believe that Islamists were caught plotting to behead their prime minister. Russians have been blown up by Muslim Chechnyans from Moscow to Beslan. India is routinely attacked by Islamic terrorists. An elected Lebanese minister must keep in mind that a Hezbollah or Syrian terrorist — not an Israeli bomb — might kill him if he utters a wrong word. The only mystery here in the United States is which target the jihadists want to destroy first: the Holland Tunnel in New York or the Sears Tower in Chicago.

In nearly all these cases there is a certain sameness: The Koran is quoted as the moral authority of the perpetrators; terrorism is the preferred method of violence; Jews are usually blamed; dozens of rambling complaints are aired, and killers are often considered stateless, at least in the sense that the countries in which they seek shelter or conduct business or find support do not accept culpability for their actions.

Yet the present Western apology to all this is often to deal piecemeal with these perceived Muslim grievances: India, after all, is in Kashmir; Russia is in Chechnya; America is in Iraq, Canada is in Afghanistan; Spain was in Iraq (or rather, still is in Al Andalus); or Israel was in Gaza and Lebanon. Therefore we are to believe that “freedom fighters” commit terror for political purposes of “liberation.” At the most extreme, some think there is absolutely no pattern to global terrorism, and the mere suggestion that there is constitutes “Islamaphobia.”

Here at home, yet another Islamic fanatic conducts an act of al Qaedism in Seattle, and the police worry immediately about the safety of the mosques from which such hatred has in the past often emanated — as if the problem of a Jew being murdered at the Los Angeles airport or a Seattle civic center arises from not protecting mosques, rather than protecting us from what sometimes goes on in mosques.

But then the world is awash with a vicious hatred that we have not seen in our generation: the most lavish film in Turkish history, “Valley of the Wolves,” depicts a Jewish-American harvesting organs at Abu Ghraib in order to sell them; the Palestinian state press regularly denigrates the race and appearance of the American Secretary of State; the U.N. secretary general calls a mistaken Israeli strike on a U.N. post “deliberate,” without a word that his own Blue Helmets have for years watched Hezbollah arm rockets in violation of U.N. resolutions, and Hezbollah’s terrorists routinely hide behind U.N. peacekeepers to ensure impunity while launching missiles.

If you think I exaggerate the bankruptcy of the West or only refer to the serial ravings on the Middle East of Pat Buchanan or Jimmy Carter, consider some of the most recent comments from Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah about Israel: “When the people of this temporary country lose their confidence in their legendary army, the end of this entity will begin [emphasis added].” Then compare Nasrallah’s remarks about the U.S: “To President Bush, Prime Minister Olmert and every other tyrannical aggressor. I want to invite you to do what you want, practice your hostilities. By God, you will not succeed in erasing our memory, our presence or eradicating our strong belief. Your masses will soon waste away, and your days are numbered [emphasis added].”

And finally examine here at home reaction to Hezbollah — which has butchered Americans in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia — from a prominent Democratic Congressman, John Dingell: “I don’t take sides for or against Hezbollah.” And isn’t that the point, after all: the amoral Westerner cannot exercise moral judgment because he no longer has any?

An Arab rights group, between denunciations of Israel and America, is suing its alma mater the United States for not evacuating Arab-Americans quickly enough from Lebanon, despite government warnings of the dangers of going there, and the explicit tactics of Hezbollah, in the manner of Saddam Hussein, of using civilians as human shields in the war it started against Israel.

Demonstrators on behalf of Hezbollah inside the United States — does anyone remember our 241 Marines slaughtered by these cowardly terrorists? — routinely carry placards with the Star of David juxtaposed with Swastikas, as voices praise terrorist killers. Few Arab-American groups these past few days have publicly explained that the sort of violence, tyranny, and lawlessness of the Middle East that drove them to the shores of a compassionate and successful America is best epitomized by the primordial creed of Hezbollah.

There is no need to mention Europe, an entire continent now returning to the cowardice of the 1930s. Its cartoonists are terrified of offending Muslim sensibilities, so they now portray the Jews as Nazis, secure that no offended Israeli terrorist might chop off their heads. The French foreign minister meets with the Iranians to show solidarity with the terrorists who promise to wipe Israel off the map (“In the region there is of course a country such as Iran — a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region”) — and manages to outdo Chamberlain at Munich. One wonders only whether the prime catalyst for such French debasement is worry over oil, terrorists, nukes, unassimilated Arab minorities at home, or the old Gallic Jew-hatred.

It is now a cliché to rant about the spread of postmodernism, cultural relativism, utopian pacifism, and moral equivalence among the affluent and leisured societies of the West. But we are seeing the insidious wages of such pernicious theories as they filter down from our media, universities, and government — and never more so than in the general public’s nonchalance since Hezbollah attacked Israel.

These past few days the inability of millions of Westerners, both here and in Europe, to condemn fascist terrorists who start wars, spread racial hatred, and despise Western democracies is the real story, not the “quarter-ton” Israeli bombs that inadvertently hit civilians in Lebanon who live among rocket launchers that send missiles into Israeli cities and suburbs.

Yes, perhaps Israel should have hit more quickly, harder, and on the ground; yes, it has run an inept public relations campaign; yes, to these criticisms and more. But what is lost sight of is the central moral issue of our times: a humane democracy mired in an asymmetrical war is trying to protect itself against terrorists from the 7th century, while under the scrutiny of a corrupt world that needs oil, is largely anti-Semitic and deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists, and finds psychic enjoyment in seeing successful Western societies under duress.

In short, if we wish to learn what was going on in Europe in 1938, just look around.
 
fossten said:
Hey Ron,

Where is your outrage at 8 Israeli civilians being killed yesterday? Hmm? In case you haven't noticed, little or no Lebanese civilians have died in several days. And Israel is mounting a ground offensive.

Definitely pokes a big hole in your "Israel is the true terrorist" premise, doesn't it?


Sorry..was out until just now. Yep...that's awful. More civilian casualties. I feel bad for the families on both sides. One story I read had a civilian riding a bike in Israel and had a rocket land near him. How crappy is that? Out for a stroll on a bike, only to be murdered by a terrorist.

Oh..and I don't know what news source you follow, but there were 40 civilians killed in Lebanon today alone in a single location. I don't see any holes being poked in anything...
 
RRocket said:
So the next time Al Quaeda rams an airplane into a building and kills a few thousand more civilians you'll shrug your shoulders and say "Such is the price of war"? I mean you ARE at war with terrorists and radical Islam...Or will you feel differently because it's YOUR civilians that are dead this time?

At any given time, there are several thousand Americans in Israel for work or for pleasure. No doubt there are some there still. Would you also say the same thing if a few were killed by a Hezbollah rocket?


NO, It means I demand that MY government pay them back 10 fold or 1000 fold. Kill them all until they get a clue that trying to kill us only makes us kill even more of them.

But hey, I guess Im too old school for this new touchy feely kinder gentler "warfare" crap we try and fail at today.

We beat the Germans and the Japs by killing them, all of them. Military, civilians, it didnt matter, until they were willing to quit. But the panzys who ran the war in Nam changed all that and now we have this "moral obligation" BS. Fk that, if you or your country makes war on the US or her Allies, you and your family WILL pay the price in BLOOD. As so much as Hezbolah is a part of the Lebonese Government, what they did was an act of war. Time to pay the piper bitches.
 
RRocket said:
Sorry..was out until just now. Yep...that's awful. More civilian casualties. I feel bad for the families on both sides. One story I read had a civilian riding a bike in Israel and had a rocket land near him. How crappy is that? Out for a stroll on a bike, only to be murdered by a terrorist.

Oh..and I don't know what news source you follow, but there were 40 civilians killed in Lebanon today alone in a single location. I don't see any holes being poked in anything...
Don't know what news source YOU follow, but the one you got it from was wrong.

Re your claim:

AP News Alert
Aug 07 11:17 AM US/Eastern
BEIRUT, Lebanon


The Lebanese prime minister says only one person died in an Israeli air raid on the southern village of Houla, lowering the death toll from 40.


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/07/D8JBLITG0.html

Poke poke poke...

*owned*
 
Isreal is far from doing a full scale attack on Hezbollah... the Israel air force is one of the best in the world, they could level the whole country if they wanted to with their modern aircraft and missiles while the Hezbollah terrorists are using Katusha rockets which were made by the Soviets during world war 2...
 
98LSC32V said:
Isreal is far from doing a full scale attack on Hezbollah... the Israel air force is one of the best in the world, they could level the whole country if they wanted to with their modern aircraft and missiles while the Hezbollah terrorists are using Katusha rockets which were made by the Soviets during world war 2...


You'd be surprised how many people think Israel is trying to kill all and conquer Lebanon and actually have the mentality of "So what, it's only a few outdated rockets, why are the Jews overreacting."
 
I admit, this guys writing is excellent, I especially like the sarcastic wit...

The Vocabulary of Untruth
Words take on new meanings as Israel struggles to survive.

By Victor Davis Hanson

A “ceasefire” would occur should Hezbollah give back kidnapped Israelis and stop launching missiles; it would never follow a unilateral cessation of Israeli bombing. In fact, we will hear international calls for one only when Hezbollah’s rockets are about exhausted.
“Civilians” in Lebanon have munitions in their basements and deliberately wish to draw fire; in Israel they are in bunkers to avoid it. Israel uses precision weapons to avoid hitting them; Hezbollah sends random missiles into Israel to ensure they are struck.

“Collateral damage” refers mostly to casualties among Hezbollah’s human shields; it can never be used to describe civilian deaths inside Israel, because everything there is by intent a target.

“Cycle of Violence” is used to denigrate those who are attacked, but are not supposed to win.

“Deliberate” reflects the accuracy of Israeli bombs hitting their targets; it never refers to Hezbollah rockets that are meant to destroy anything they can.

“Deplore” is usually evoked against Israel by those who themselves have slaughtered noncombatants or allowed them to perish — such as the Russians in Grozny, the Syrians in Hama, or the U.N. in Rwanda and Dafur.

“Disproportionate” means that the Hezbollah aggressors whose primitive rockets can’t kill very many Israeli civilians are losing, while the Israelis’ sophisticated response is deadly against the combatants themselves. See “excessive.”

Anytime you hear the adjective “excessive,” Hezbollah is losing. Anytime you don’t, it isn’t.

“Eyewitnesses” usually aren’t, and their testimony is cited only against Israel.

“Grave concern” is used by Europeans and Arabs who privately concede there is no future for Lebanon unless Hezbollah is destroyed — and it should preferably be done by the “Zionists” who can then be easily blamed for doing it.

“Innocent” often refers to Lebanese who aid the stockpiling of rockets or live next to those who do. It rarely refers to Israelis under attack.

The “militants” of Hezbollah don’t wear uniforms, and their prime targets are not those Israelis who do.

“Multinational,” as in “multinational force,” usually means “third-world mercenaries who sympathize with Hezbollah.” See “peacekeepers.”

“Peacekeepers” keep no peace, but always side with the less Western of the belligerents.

“Quarter-ton” is used to describe what in other, non-Israeli militaries are known as “500-pound” bombs.

“Shocked” is used, first, by diplomats who really are not; and, second, only evoked against the response of Israel, never the attack of Hezbollah.

“United Nations Action” refers to an action that Russia or China would not veto. The organization’s operatives usually watch terrorists arm before their eyes. They are almost always guilty of what they accuse others of.

What explains this distortion of language? A lot.

First there is the need for Middle Eastern oil. Take that away, and the war would receive the same scant attention as bloodletting in central Africa.

Then there is the fear of Islamic terrorism. If the Middle East were Buddhist, the world would care about Lebanon as little as it does about occupied Tibet.

And don’t forget the old anti-Semitism. If Russia or France were shelled by neighbors, Putin and Chirac would be threatening nuclear retaliation.

Israel is the symbol of the hated West. Were it a client of China, no one would dare say a word.


Population and size count for a lot: When India threatened Pakistan with nukes for its support of terrorism a few years ago, no one uttered any serious rebuke.

Finally, there is the worry that Israel might upset things in Iraq. If we were not in Afghanistan and Iraq trying to win hearts and minds, we wouldn’t be pressuring Israel behind the scenes.

But most of all, the world deplores the Jewish state because it is strong, and can strike back rather than suffer. In fact, global onlookers would prefer either one of two scenarios for the long-suffering Jews to learn their lesson. The first is absolute symmetry and moral equivalence: when Israel is attacked, it kills only as many as it loses. For each rocket that lands, it drops only one bomb in retaliation — as if any aggressor in the history of warfare has ever ceased its attacks on such insane logic.

The other desideratum is the destruction of Israel itself. Iran promised to wipe Israel off the map, and then gave Hezbollah thousands of missiles to fulfill that pledge. In response, the world snored. If tomorrow more powerful rockets hit Tel Aviv armed with Syrian chemicals or biological agents, or Iranian nukes, the “international” community would urge “restraint” — and keep urging it until Israel disappeared altogether. And the day after its disappearance, the Europeans and Arabs would sigh relief, mumble a few pieties, and then smile, “Life goes on.”

And for them, it would very wellNational Review National Review National Review National Review
 

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