Good Plan!

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Good Plan!

Republican Paul Ryan's budget proposal is brave, radical, and smart.

By Jacob WeisbergPosted Tuesday, April 5, 2011, at 6:09 PM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2290509/


For the past 30 years, Republicans have been hypocrites about spending. They've raged against big government without ever proposing the kinds of cuts necessary to bring federal expenditures in line with tax revenues. Democrats have been more fiscally responsible, producing an actual budget surplus during Bill Clinton's second term. But they've been little better than Republicans when it comes to confronting the nation's long-term fiscal imbalance, which is driven by the projected growth in entitlement spending.

This dynamic of political evasion and reality-denial may have undergone a fundamental shift today with the release of Rep. Paul Ryan's 2012 budget resolution. The Wisconsin Republican's genuinely radical plan goes where Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich never did by terminating the entitlement status of Medicare and Medicaid. (It doesn't touch the third major entitlement, Social Security, though Ryan has elsewhere argued for extending its life by gradually raising the retirement age to 70.) Ryan changes Medicare into a voucher, which would be used to purchase private health insurance. He turns Medicaid into a block grant for states to spend as they choose. Though his budget committee isn't responsible for taxes, Ryan includes the boldest tax reform proposal since the 1980s, proposing to lower top individual and corporate rates to 25 percent and end deductions. While he's at it, Ryan caps domestic spending, repeals Obamacare, slashes farm subsidies, and more.

If the GOP gets behind his proposals in a serious way, it will become for the first time in modern memory an intellectually serious party—one with a coherent vision to match its rhetoric of limited government.

Democrats are within their rights to point out the negative effects of Ryan's proposed cuts on future retirees, working families, and the poor. He was not specific about many of his cuts, and Democrats have a political opportunity in filling in the blanks. But the ball is now in their court, and it will be hard to take them seriously if they don't respond with their own alternative path to debt reduction and long-term solvency.

And before they reject everything in Ryan's plan, liberals might want to consider whether some of what he proposes doesn't in fact serve their own ultimate goals. Ryan's proposal to turn Medicare into a voucher provides an easy political target. But it's hard to make a principled liberal case for the program in its current form. To do so, you have to argue that government-paid health care should be a right only for people over the age of 65, and for no one else. Medicare covers doctor and hospital bills at 100 percent, regardless of income. This gives doctors and patients an incentive to maximize their use of the system and waste public resources. Choosing to pay 100 percent of Warren Buffett's medical bills while cutting Head Start reflects a strange set of social priorities, to say the least.
Ryan's alternative to Medicare hardly seems as terrible as Paul Krugman makes out. Seniors would enter the health care world the rest of us live in, with co-payments, deductibles and managed care. Eventually, cost control would require some tough decisions about end-of-life care and the rationing of high-tech treatments that have limited efficacy. But starting with a value of $15,000 per year, per senior—the amount government now spends on Medicare—Ryan's vouchers should provide excellent coverage. His change would amount to a minor amendment to the social contract, not a fundamental revision of it.

Effectively constraining the growth of Medicare could make it possible for Democrats to do a lot else that's important to them in the future. In 2010, Medicare spending was $519 billion, as compared with $666 billion for all nondefense domestic discretionary spending. Growing at more than 7 percent a year, Medicare is projected to eventually consume nearly all federal tax revenues. It is crowding out everything else that Washington does or might want to do. Conversely, cutting Medicare's growth rate to near the overall rate of the economy would do more than anything else to enable the kind of activist government liberals support—investment in kids, education, jobs, and infrastructure. Ryan's goal isn't to empower the federal government. But if your goal is a more interventionist public sector, you might find yourself on Ryan's side of the Medicare debate.

Of the alternatives we face in controlling long-term spending growth, moving Medicare to a voucher system seems only mildly unfortunate—and nothing as compared with a debt-driven economic crisis that could stem from inaction. As Ryan rightly points out, this kind of crisis could come at any time and could cast a pall over the country's entire future. Keeping Medicare as a fee-for-service program simply isn't worth that risk. If anything, liberals should go further than Ryan did in this plan, adding a means-test that would diminish Medicare subsidies for upper-income beneficiaries.

There are, of course, some sleight-of-hand tricks in Ryan's plan. What he claims would restore fiscal balance would do nothing of the kind over the next decade, leaving $400 billion in annual deficits as far as the eye can see. That's because he slips a large tax cut into his "reform," leaving government revenues perpetually two percentage points lower than spending expenditures as a share of GDP. What's needed is not more tax cuts but a modest tax increase, of the kind the Simpson-Bowles fiscal commission proposed. That failure is easily remedied, however, by adopting a top rate higher than the 25 percent he proposes, though still lower than the current 35 percent level.
Ryan also evades a lot of difficult particulars. He seldom spells out domestic spending cuts, preferring to kick the can down the road by applying "caps." He skirts the question of which deductions and tax subsidies he'd eliminate to pay for these lower rates. Unfortunately, you don't get big savings unless you eliminate mortgage interest and charitable deductions, which would be politically unpopular. Ryan includes the Heritage Foundation's projections about job growth triggered by his plan—4 percent unemployment in 2015 vs. 5.9 percent without the plan—that are a supply-side fantasy. His anti-bailout rhetoric is silly pandering. I could go on.
But more than anyone else in politics, Rep. Ryan has made a serious attempt to grapple with the long-term fiscal issue the country faces. He has a largely coherent, workable set of answers. If you don't like them, now you need to come up with something better.

________________________________________________________

Once in a million years pigs fly and hell does freeze over :p:p
Finally someone with the vision thing as Bush Sr would call it and it's a Republican ;)
 
It's a good start. Anything more would not just be a political challenge, but probably just impossible at this time.

If we just had sound fiscal discipline and responsible limited government, our economy would explode to life again.
 
Ryan is living in fantasy land if he thinks this will all go away with just some cuts - He, along with the rest of the nation (especially the GOP) needs to grasp the idea that we need to raise taxes - at least some, for a while, so we can pay down the debt - interest on the debt alone is staggering - Balancing the budget is one thing - paying down the debt - well, ask Clinton how that is done - by raising taxes. He started to pay down the debt at the end of his administration - and it wasn't done with budget cuts - it was done with raising taxes.
 
So - KS - did Reagan or Bush or Bush II pay down the debt with supply side economics - and tax cuts - ah, no, but they sure added to it.

I certainly agree that spending has to be cut way, way down - and the sacred cows will have to be retooled - but, come on, be realistic - what happens if you get way into debt - cutting spending can't do it all - you get another job.

If we really care about our kids (which is what the right is always bringing this back to - our future generations) then, not only do we have to cut spending - we have to be realistic and raise taxes - a bit - for a while - there isn't any way around it.
 
We also need to take an axe to defence spending which runs 700 Billion a year.
Just like GM got rid of Oldsmobile and Pontiac we don't need multiple duplicate ordinance and weapons systems that only add to the pork.

On a different note maybe we should get China to build our weapons for Walmart prices and save a bundle there:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Ryan is living in fantasy land if he thinks this will all go away with just some cuts - He, along with the rest of the nation (especially the GOP) needs to grasp the idea that we need to raise taxes - at least some, for a while, so we can pay down the debt

Your argument hinges on the false assumption that tax rate increases equal tax revenue increases.

This fallacy has been discussed many times on this forum.

it is the flawed notion of static analysis:
Static analysis effectively assumes you can change one variable in an equation without the other variables changing as a result. In hard sciences, this is simple enough, but in the soft sciences, this is practically impossible to achieve in the real world, especially when you are dealing with something as large as fiscal policy. Dynamic analysis accounts for that problem by trying to estimate and account for the changes in those other variables (basically, accounting for changes in human behavior).

Since it is the more “traditional” approach, most government organizations use static analysis (including the CBO). However, dynamic analysis is, unsurprisingly, far more accurate.

For instance, under a static analysis, a tax rate increase of $1 billion = a tax revenues increase of $1 billion. However, under a dynamic analysis, tax increases can incentivize behavior changes to avoid the taxes. The result being either no increase in revenue (and possibly even a decrease in revenue) or a much smaller increase in revenue then projected under a static analysis.

Static analysis tends to understate policy costs and overstate revenue from changing tax policy in it’s projections. This is one way in which there can be budget surpluses on paper that never truly materialize or that costs of a new entitlement program are dramatically underestimated.
When you have budget issues like this, there are two solutions; decrease spending and/or increase revenue. However, the method used to increase revenue is hardly a sure thing and given the political dynamics of Washington only further exaggerates the problem in the long run. The ONLY serious approach with any real chance to fix the problems that caused this mess is spending cuts. Anything else shows a lack of seriousness in tackling the issue on the part of those presenting it.

Unless the assumption can be proven that tax rate increases automatically lead to tax revenue increases, the argument for tax rate increases is built on sand; nothing more then fantasy.

FYI: simply cherry picking facts and presenting them as vaguely as possible does NOT prove that assumption. One needs to show that it was tax increases (and not some other factor) that raised revenue. The argument for tax rate increases is not deductively sound and therefore needs specific empirical proof (not vauge cherry picked "evidence").

The fact that people change their behavior in response to taxes utterly destroys that argument. The truth is that we need to change behavior; in this case, spending. Entitlement programs are simply NOT SUSTAINABLE. anything less then reforming them is simply kicking the can down the road.

The argument is not weather to reform entitlement programs, but when. If we do it now it will cause far less pain then if we do it later.

Paul Ryan has made a tremendous effort to force an honest and productive national dialog on this issue. It is amazing the degrees to which the left will go to avoid any honest discussion on this issue.

Ryan said it best when he pointed out that he has handed the left a political weapon against him, however, the left will have to engage in lies and demagoguery to use it.

It is interesting that it is Ryan's budget that brings Foxy out of hiding. Is an honest, reasonable discussion of our entitlement programs and fiscal solvency that much of a threat?
 
So - KS - did Reagan or Bush or Bush II pay down the debt with supply side economics - and tax cuts - ah, no, but they sure added to it.

This is more misdirection and you know it Foxy.

Tax revenue is only one side of the equation and their were other political concerns involved unique to each issue. If you want to have an honest discussion, that is one thing. But dishonest and misleading attempts to delegitimize are shameful.

Weather or not debt was paid down says absolutely NOTHING about the effectiveness of supply side economics. You are imposing a FALSE standard of judgment.

But we have had that discussion countless times on this forum. Injecting it into this thread only serves to distract (by design, no doubt).
 
Yeah shag - well, I got reality on my side - who paid down the debt - wasn't anyone who actually believed in supply side and cutting taxes - Clinton found a balance that worked-

Sorry - you can hold onto your 'static analysis' all you want - but, look at the bottom line - Clinton paid down the debt - no one else in recent history has. In the long run you can analyze all you want - but, results count - in the real world shag - results count.

And in the real world - not only will we have to cut spending - we have to raise taxes if we have any hope whatsoever of digging into the debt.

Cutting taxes has never, ever cut the debt - got proof shag?
 
An honest challenge isn't whether supply-side economics "cut the debt." Cutting the debt involves how much money is spent, not how much money is generated or how much economic activity is stimulated.
 
An honest challenge isn't whether supply-side economics "cut the debt." Cutting the debt involves how much money is spent, not how much money is generated or how much economic activity is stimulated.
cutting the deficit involves how much money is being spent - cutting debt involves how much money is generated, along with how much money is being spent.

We have deficit spending this year - meaning our outlay is larger than what we are generating as far as income. Our debt is the accumulation of all those years of deficit spending. We won't start reducing the debt until our receipts are greater than our expenditures.

Cal - do you really think we will get out of this mess just by cutting the budget - no way. If the Republicans were really going with 'the hard choices' they would also raise taxes for a short time.

Plus - as I said - I can't think of any time when tax decreases equated to a reduction of debt.
 
cutting the deficit involves how much money is being spent - cutting debt involves how much money is generated, along with how much money is being spent.
But the amount the government spends is something entirely different than the amount of economic activity in the country or the amount of revenue it collects.

You're asking about revenue, but the challenge you issued was about spending. It doesn't matter how much revenue you collect, or how much economic activity takes place, if you continue to increase spending at an even greater rate.

Cal - do you really think we will get out of this mess just by cutting the budget - no way.
Do I think we can get out of debt by spending less money? Yes.

Plus - as I said - I can't think of any time when tax decreases equated to a reduction of debt.
Plus, as I responded, reducing the debt is a product of government spending, not economic activity or tax revenue collected. Your observation is a political one, less an economic one. It speaks to the failures of politicians and their spending habits, NOT the viability of an economic model.
 
cutting the deficit involves how much money is being spent - cutting debt involves how much money is generated, along with how much money is being spent.

Tax RATE increases do NOT lead to tax REVENUE increases. In fact they tend to have the opposite effect.

The equation for debt is (costs)-(revenue). The ONLY one of those two that the government can manipulate with any degree of certainty is costs (specifically, by reducing spending).

There is a HUGE distinction between tax rates and tax revenue but most of the terminology/rhetoric in the media and in Washington tends to blur that distinction. Tax rate increases have, at best, uncertain effects because of people changing their behavior in response to those rate increases (the false narratives being drawn by the left always ignore that fact). The other means of raising revenue have their limits and trade-offs as well.

A tax rate increase is a non-starter. It is a "solution" that is NOT, in any way, focused on reality. Might as well fix the debt with fairy dust. :rolleyes:

As to the overly general narrative that Clinton raised taxes and paid down the debt, how does the fact that the federal capital gains tax rate was lowered from 28% to 20% play into that narrative?

$54 billion was collected in capital gains taxes in 1996. It was estimated that $209 billion would be collected over the next four years. But then came the tax cut from 28% to 20% and with it came a lot of hand wringing of how much it would "cost" us, etc. The record is that $372 billion was collected in capital gains taxes over the next four years. The false narrative that was created about the "cost" of tax "cuts" was destroyed by the historical record...unless you believe $209 billion > $372 billion.

There are countless other examples of tax increases leading to loss of revenue and vice versa due to people changing their behavior in response to tax rate changes.

Attempting to delegitimize an economic model through false narratives, shows one to be arguing from a weak and logically indefensible position.

Unfortunately, narratives seem to be all the left has. They have made it clear they don't want an honest and open national dialog. :rolleyes:
 
Your observation is a political one, less an economic one. It speaks to the failures of politicians and their spending habits, NOT the viability of an economic model.

bingo!
 
A major purpose for tax hikes is to punish those who, from entrepreneurial spirit, do more than the average. The motivation is jealousy and small-mindedness.

KS
 
A major purpose for tax hikes is to punish those who, from entrepreneurial spirit, do more than the average. The motivation is jealousy and small-mindedness.

KS

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck."


-Robert Heinlein

The most politically effective totalitarian systems have gotten people to give up their own freedom in order to vent their resentment or hatred at other people -- under Communism, the capitalists; under Nazi, the Jews

-Thomas Sowell​
 
Neither the Congressional Budget Office nor anyone else can predict the consequences of a given tax rate increase or decrease. It is not just that the exact amount of revenue cannot be predicted. Whether revenue will move in one direction or the opposite direction is not a foregone conclusion. The choice is among alternative educated guesses-or, what is worse, mechanically calculating how much revenue will come in if no one's behavior changes in the wake of a tax change. Behavior has changed too often, and too dramatically, to proceed on that assumption.

-Thomas Sowell​

To assume tax rate increases lead to tax revenue increases is to, "mechanically calculat[e] how much revenue will come in if no one's behavior changes in the wake of a tax change."
 
So shag, I agree with sowell - hard to tell which way things will go - but, I'll go with recent history - tax cuts=bigger debts - tax increase=smaller debt -

You really can't think we will just 'not spend' our way out of this whole situation.
 
So if Ryan's Medicare and Medicaid ideas take some root then in an ironic twist Boomers will get to die for their country(to help solve paying for them) after all :eek:

Do I hear the carousel?
 
I'll go with recent history - tax cuts=bigger debts - tax increase=smaller debt -

Funny thing is, recent history does NOT show that...unless you overgeneralize, obfuscate and mislead.

Gotta keep peddling that false narrative, reality be damned, eh?

You really can't think we will just 'not spend' our way out of this whole situation.

You keep inferring that this is an absurd idea yet show no logical proof for that assertion.

If you were personally in debt, you wouldn't take out a loan and invest it in lotto tickets. Yet that is essentially what you are proposing we do on a societal level when you promote raising tax rates as a way to get out of debt.

The ONLY reliable means of getting out of debt is to CUT SPENDING.
 
Funny thing is, recent history does NOT show that...unless you overgeneralize, obfuscate and mislead.

Gotta keep peddling that false narrative, reality be damned, eh?

I think you really need to look long and hard at your little 'narrative' - my reality is based in history - your reality is based in some sort of fantasy land where hypothetical meanderings mean more than historical fact...
If you were personally in debt, you wouldn't take out a loan and invest it in lotto tickets. Yet that is essentially what you are proposing we do on a societal level when you promote raising tax rates as a way to get out of debt.

The ONLY reliable means of getting out of debt is to CUT SPENDING.

Shag - I think you should learn to read...

I certainly agree that spending has to be cut way, way down - and the sacred cows will have to be retooled - but, come on, be realistic - what happens if you get way into debt - cutting spending can't do it all - you get another job.
Of course you cut spending - I never said you didn't have to (although you certainly would like to imply I did - why - running out of bullsh!t that everyone sees through). But - just as I said - you better believe we ain't going to get out of this mess by just cutting spending - we will need to raise taxes to even start to touch the debt. Did you really pay attention to Ryan's little 'proposal' - His plan doesn't even start to cut into the debt until after 2050 - and that is with massive budget cuts.

Face facts - we will have to raise taxes. Just cutting expenses isn't going to do it - the interest alone on the debt is going to be hampering any real debt reduction for a long time.
 
my reality is based in history -

Yet you cannot back it up with specific facts. However, I have pointed to specific tax cuts that were followed by tax revenue increases.


Shag - I think you should learn to read...

Oh, I have. The problem is that you are simply talking out of both sides of your mouth. Again.
...in the real world - not only will we have to cut spending - we have to raise taxes if we have any hope whatsoever of digging into the debt.
There were a number of examples of this assumption that raising taxes will "dig into the debt" by raising revenue. Even after I pointed out the fact that tax rate increases do NOT automatically equate to tax revenue increases because people change their behavior, as well as citing examples of behavior change in response to tax rate changes effecting revenue, you kept using this assumption.

It wasn't until after I quoted economist Thomas Sowell that you changed your tune, however briefly.
Neither the Congressional Budget Office nor anyone else can predict the consequences of a given tax rate increase or decrease. It is not just that the exact amount of revenue cannot be predicted. Whether revenue will move in one direction or the opposite direction is not a foregone conclusion. The choice is among alternative educated guesses-or, what is worse, mechanically calculating how much revenue will come in if no one's behavior changes in the wake of a tax change. Behavior has changed too often, and too dramatically, to proceed on that assumption.

-Thomas Sowell​

To assume tax rate increases lead to tax revenue increases is to, "mechanically calculat[e] how much revenue will come in if no one's behavior changes in the wake of a tax change."
So shag, I agree with sowell...

But then, in your latest post, you make a statement which, again ASSUMES that tax rate changes automatically lead to tax revenue increases.

we will need to raise taxes to even start to touch the debt...

Face facts - we will have to raise taxes.

So which is it?

If you agree with Sowell, then there is NO logical reason to raise taxes to get out of debt. In fact, if people change their behavior in response to taxes (which you claim to agree with) then the only viable options are either leaving taxes the same or cutting them. Tax increases only encourage people to change their behavior to avoid taxes.

In addition, Cal posted a video in another thread that show how far raising taxes would get us in paying for government spending, though you will no doubt ignore it as always. The problem is behavior. Specifically, wasteful spending habits that have become systemic in Washington. The "solution" is changing that behavior. Cutting spending and reform are the first steps in that.

This is the problem when all you can argue is narrative. Logical coherent is impossible when you get into specifics and true critical analysis. As long as you can make overly general assertions and avoid having to back them up, you are OK. But when challenged for specifics and logical reasoning, the narrative falls apart.

When reality itself is an inconvenience, all you can do is try to control the narrative. :rolleyes:
 
Capital gains as well as tax revenues had already started on a steep climb prior to the 1997 cuts. The dot com bubble was already starting to pick up steam, so it's impossible to prove that tax rates had much effect on the economy, especially when comparing a snapshot of one year with the combined total of the next four. That has no meaning statistically. It only serve to confuse the matter. At the very least you need to know what trend was before and after the cut. In fact, the revenue gains on a year to year basis after the 1997 cut were lower than the year prior to the cut. Yes, they did still increase, but no one was counting on the tech bubble to distort the market as far as it did.

And don't forget the fact that whenever there is an increase or cut in capital gains taxes, most of the largest effects are short-term, as investors try to time their realizations prior to or after a change in the rate.

On another note, total tax revenues as a percentage of GDP has averaged around 18 percent for the past 70 years. We're currently at around 15 percent, the lowest level since 1950. Personal tax revenues are also at a 60 year low. So pretending that this is all about spending and not about revenue is just astounding, especially during a time when demand for government assistance from those who have fallen on hard times, through no fault of their own, is so high.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think that Republicans were intentionally trying to stretch the government's resources past its limits to the point of collapse. Drown it in the bathtub, to coin a phrase. What did you call it? Treason? Nah, that couldn't possibly be their intention.
 
...it's impossible to prove that tax rates had much effect on the economy, especially when comparing a snapshot of one year with the combined total of the next four. That has no meaning statistically.

Good thing no one "compar[ed] a snapshot of one year with the combined total of the next four".

If you look at post #13, the comparison was between the estimate of tax revenue over a four year period to the actual revenue over those four years (after a tax cut); a comparison of an estimate to historical record. To impose statistical standards of judgment is absurd and unrealistic.

don't forget the fact that whenever there is an increase or cut in capital gains taxes, most of the largest effects are short-term, as investors try to time their realizations prior to or after a change in the rate.

By your own standard of judgment, there is no way to prove that statement. There are simply too many other variables involved, especially in the long term, to determine how much effect a change in capital gains taxes have (or don't have) in the long term.

On another note, total tax revenues as a percentage of GDP has averaged around 18 percent for the past 70 years. We're currently at around 15 percent, the lowest level since 1950. Personal tax revenues are also at a 60 year low. So pretending that this is all about spending and not about revenue is just astounding

What are you trying to say here?

That tax revenue is supposed to be higher?

How do the facts you cite logically support your condescending statement about "pretending that this is all about spending and not about revenue"? There seems to be a huge logical leap there...

It has already been pointed out that the means of raising tax revenue are limited and uncertain at best. The ONLY factor that can be controlled through government action is spending. Also, considering the problem, it is spending, the habits in Washington and institutions that increase spending that need to be tackled. Anything less is simply focusing on the symptom and avoiding the actual problem.
 

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