gas to ethonal

Iancusp

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not sure of details but when al gore was runnin 4 pres wasnt he pushin to have ethonal to be used in the usa thus helping the fuel economy and it would of been about 7 years ago so we would of seen a change in that time if the ethonal was starting to be in use
i also understand that bush is a oil man so y would he use ethonal if it would make his family poor
correct me if im wrong i will have no prob and would also like to hear a lil insight
 
Why should we switch to ethanol? Oil is cheaper and we already have refineries in place. The only thing preventing us from enjoying better prices is the envirowackos in Congress who won't let us drill for oil.
 
fossten said:
Why should we switch to ethanol? Oil is cheaper and we already have refineries in place. The only thing preventing us from enjoying better prices is the envirowackos in Congress who won't let us drill for oil.
That is incorrect, and you know it is incorrect. Come on, just drilling for more oil isn't going to do jack sh!t for fuel prices, the only thing that would affect gas prices is destabilizing or curtailing the power of OPEC
 
Iancusp said:
pushin to have ethonal to be used in the usa
The major barrier to Ethanol use in the US is that Ethanol can not burn in the gasoline combustion engine...it requires some very extensive changes to the computer (air/fuel mix) and ignitors (spark plugs and timing) to burn properly without damaging the engine.

In my personal opinion the quickest way to lower our oil use would be to take the 30-40% we convert to diesel and replace it completely with biodiesel. Biodiesel is a 100% direct replacement for oil based diesel and requires no modifications of the vehicles what so ever. It also burns cleaner with no carbon emissions resulting from its use.
 
Seven years ago Ethanol did cost a hell of a lot more than oil. That reason, alone, made it impractical to switch over to.

Drilling and refinery production would reduce the prices of fuel. It shouldn't be dismissed. And, while the public tends to overlook this, now that the oil companies are making profits, they have more money available to reinvest into driller/refining as well as ALTERNATIVE energy sources for the future. This won't happen if we pass an anti-business "windfall tax."

I don't know if it's entirely practical, but I'm very encouraged by the prospects of biodiesol fuels and ethanol. The U.S. could easily lead the world in production of a fuel like this, and we're starting to see large scale test production being built all over the country. In Florida, they are building a biodiesol refinery just North of here at the Port. You can corn as well as oranges, sugar cane, sugar can stalks, corn stalks, and even trash to make these alternative fuels.

With all this said, Al Gore is an attention seeking, irrelevant loon. Let's not forget, he's the guy who wanted to portray the Art Bell movie "DAY AFTER TOMORROW" with Dennis Quaid as a movie to be seriously contemplated.
 
raVeneyes said:
That is incorrect, and you know it is incorrect. Come on, just drilling for more oil isn't going to do jack sh!t for fuel prices, the only thing that would affect gas prices is destabilizing or curtailing the power of OPEC
While I agree that OPEC is strangling prices, this can and will change when demand for their oil changes. Incidentally, we don't buy nearly as much oil from OPEC as we do from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela.

You are implying that OIL PRICES affect GAS PRICES. (In doing so, you tacitly agree that the Exxons of the world have little or nothing to do with this, nor does the President) Okay, fine, if you are stipulating that, then you cannot argue with the laws of supply and demand. If the US of A increases our supply of oil, this will also decrease our demand for foreign oil. Increasing supply while decreasing demand will have a negative effect on oil prices. Now back to your stipulation. Decreased oil prices will have a negative effect on gas prices.
 
fossten said:
You are implying that OIL PRICES affect GAS PRICES. (In doing so, you tacitly agree that the Exxons of the world have little or nothing to do with this, nor does the President)

While I agree Oil prices drive Gas prices, I still say that big oil and the whomever is President of the United States controls, to a large extent, oil prices.

fossten said:
Okay, fine, if you are stipulating that, then you cannot argue with the laws of supply and demand.

The key seat in OPEC is Saudi Arabia's "Oil Minister". He is the head of OPEC and not one vote has gone against his word in the time he's been there. It has long been admitted that the Saudi Oil Minister is controlled for the most part by heavy donations from foreign interests such as US oil companies and the US government. The Oil Minister is a big player in global politics as well and is heavily influenced by the demands of the office of the President of the United States. His interests have become more divided because of recent demands for attention from the Chinese and Indian governments...I think that the President of the US still has the biggest arm though. This is what leads me to believe that more could be done by big oil and the Presidency to reduce Oil prices, and hence Gas prices.

OPEC has only ever used supply and demand as excuses for their oil prices. They have in fact openly negotiated about the fact that they do not wish to run their drilling and pumping facilities at full capacity because it would ruin their ability to charge what they do.

OPEC also controls the price that non OPEC members charge for Oil because non member nations would face sanctions under several treaties if they undercut OPEC's prices (hence our saber rattling at Venezuela).

fossten said:
If the US of A increases our supply of oil, this will also decrease our demand for foreign oil. Increasing supply while decreasing demand will have a negative effect on oil prices. Now back to your stipulation. Decreased oil prices will have a negative effect on gas prices.
If the US increased its supply of Oil it would not affect the price we pay for it, and thus would not affect Gas prices.

Oil is not a supply and demand product, it is controlled exclusively by a global monopoly.
 
raVeneyes said:
While I agree Oil prices drive Gas prices, I still say that big oil and the whomever is President of the United States controls, to a large extent, oil prices.
The markets ultimately control the price of oil. The only establishments that can affect the market are the suppliers. By tighening or loosening the supply, they can influence the price.

But, with emerging economies in India and China, both with populations over a billion, there isn't much excess capacity left in the world. And many Middle Eastern countries are starting to come deal with the reality that their reserves are running low.

But the President has NO control. And who or what, specifically, is "big oil." In case you didn't know, "big oil" BUYS most of their oil from nationalized oil producers. Most of them do drill some oil, but the majority comes from State-Owned and private drilling.


They have in fact openly negotiated about the fact that they do not wish to run their drilling and pumping facilities at full capacity because it would ruin their ability to charge what they do.
Which OPEC nation isn't running at near capacity? And, if they aren't, would you support military action to ensure the availability of afforable energy?


If the US increased its supply of Oil it would not affect the price we pay for it, and thus would not affect Gas prices.

Oil is not a supply and demand product, it is controlled exclusively by a global monopoly.
It is a commodity. Any market good is controled by the amount brought to market. But in this case, most of the major world producers are already operating at near capacity.

If we want to lower the price of oil we need to
Increase the supply- more drilling
Decrease demand - alternative fuels. blends. Using less.

And by doing both of these things you'll also see a psychological affect on the market too. That would further drive prices down.


And one more thing. Uncertainty. What if Iran boycotts the U.S. and Europe? What if they decide to mine the waterways, chocking off the export of oil throughout that region? What if another major hurricane blows up through the Gulf of Mexico this year and destroys more platforms and refineries on the Gulf coast? These uncertainties will keep the oil prices high.
 
Calabrio said:
I don't know if it's entirely practical, but I'm very encouraged by the prospects of biodiesol fuels and ethanol. The U.S. could easily lead the world in production of a fuel like this, and we're starting to see large scale test production being built all over the country. In Florida, they are building a biodiesol refinery just North of here at the Port. You can corn as well as oranges, sugar cane, sugar can stalks, corn stalks, and even trash to make these alternative fuels.
i also heard that one bad thjing about it in the usa is that if it is generated from our most abundant natural resource (which is corn) it wont be as effective as the sugarcane like as wat is used in brazil
 
Iancusp said:
i also heard that one bad thjing about it in the usa is that if it is generated from our most abundant natural resource (which is corn) it wont be as effective as the sugarcane like as wat is used in brazil

Corn is as effect as sugarcane as a fuel, it's just not as cost effective. The corn needs to be broken down (cost money) into a sugar before it can be converted into ethanol, while sugarcane skips the middle step and can be converted into ethanol, a bit simplified, but you get the idea.
 
Calabrio said:
I don't know if it's entirely practical, but I'm very encouraged by the prospects of biodiesol fuels and ethanol. The U.S. could easily lead the world in production of a fuel like this, and we're starting to see large scale test production being built all over the country. In Florida, they are building a biodiesol refinery just North of here at the Port. You can corn as well as oranges, sugar cane, sugar can stalks, corn stalks, and even trash to make these alternative fuels.

Excellent news, I'm gald to see the biodiesel thing gaining ground. If America had the ability to fuel its trucking/transportation and possibly our military (they'll be going to diesel as a single fuel soon) with home made fuels, we could be well on our way to being energy independant.

It is practical, maybe not in passenger cars since diesel power makes up a very small percentage of the cars on the road. But in trucking, train, shipping and even power generation, diesel is on the top.
 
raVeneyes said:
If the US increased its supply of Oil it would not affect the price we pay for it, and thus would not affect Gas prices.

Oil is not a supply and demand product, it is controlled exclusively by a global monopoly.


I can't stand all the nonsense posts I am seeing on this thread. Wow. Uninformed...Misinformed....Whatever.

Sure glad I have been out of town.
 
MonsterMark said:
I can't stand all the nonsense posts I am seeing on this thread. Wow. Uninformed...Misinformed....Whatever.

Sure glad I have been out of town.

On that note.... I heard from a reliable source that George W. Bush likes to eat babies, especially minorities...:rolleyes:

Welcome back!
 
May 14, 2006
Military Plans Tests in Search for an Alternative to Oil-Based Fuel

By THOM SHANKER

WASHINGTON, May 13 — When an F-16 lights up its afterburners, it consumes nearly 28 gallons of fuel per minute. No wonder, then, that of all the fuel the United States government uses each year, the Air Force accounts for more than half. The Air Force may not be in any danger of suffering inconveniences from scarce or expensive fuel, but it has begun looking for a way to power its jets on something besides conventional fuel.

In a series of tests — first on engines mounted on blocks and then with B-52's in flight — the Air Force will try to prove that the American military can fly its aircraft by blending traditional crude-oil-based jet fuel with a synthetic liquid made first from natural gas and, eventually, from coal, which is plentiful and cheaper.

While the military has been a leader in adopting some technologies — light but strong metals, radar-evading stealth designs and fire-retardant flight suits, for example — any effort to hit a miles-per-gallon fuel efficiency rating has taken a back seat when the mission is to haul bombs farther and faster or push 70-ton tanks across a desert to topple an adversary. (The Abrams tank, for example, gets less than a mile per gallon under certain combat conditions.)

"Energy is a national security issue," said Michael A. Aimone, the Air Force assistant deputy chief of staff for logistics.

The United States is unlikely ever to become fully independent of foreign oil, Mr. Aimone said, but the intent of the Air Force project is "to develop enough independence to have assured domestic supplies for aviation purposes."

By late this summer, on the hard lake beds of the Mojave Desert, where the Air Force tests its most secret and high-performance aircraft, a lumbering B-52 is scheduled to take off in an experiment in which two of the giant bomber's engines will burn jet fuel produced not from crude oil but from natural gas. The plane's six other engines will burn traditional jet fuel — just in case.

The Air Force consumed 3.2 billion gallons of aviation fuel in fiscal year 2005, which was 52.5 percent of all fossil fuel used by the government, Pentagon statistics show. The total Air Force bill for jet fuel last year topped $4.7 billion.

Although the share of national energy consumption by the federal government and the military is just 1.7 percent, every increase of $10 per barrel of oil drives up Air Force fuel costs by $600 million per year.

Mr. Aimone said that if the synthetic blend worked, plans called for increasing its use in Air Force planes to 100 million gallons in the next two years.

Air Force and industry officials say that oil prices above $40 to $45 per barrel make a blend with synthetic fuels a cost-effective alternative to oil-based jet fuel.

Fuel costs have doubled since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and crude oil prices since Hurricane Katrina have remained above $60 a barrel.

The Air Force effort falls under a directive from Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to explore alternative fuel sources. Under the plan, the Air Force has been authorized to buy 100,000 gallons of synthetic fuel.

Ground experiments are scheduled to begin in coming weeks at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, followed by test flights at Edwards Air Force Base in California.

Although the Air Force is leading the project, it is working with the Automotive Tank Command of the Army, in Detroit, and the Naval Fuels Laboratory, at Patuxent River, Md.

The research and tests on synthetic fuel would ultimately produce a common fuel for the entire military, Air Force officials said.

The initial contract for unconventional fuel for the tests will be signed with Syntroleum Corporation of Tulsa, Okla., which has provided synthetic fuel for testing by the Departments of Energy, Transportation and Defense since 1998.

John B. Holmes Jr., Syntroleum's president and chief executive officer, said his firm would sell the Air Force its synthetic fuel for testing "at our cost, and we may be losing a little bit."

Neither Mr. Holmes nor the Air Force would provide cost estimates for the experimental fuel deal in advance of signing a final contract, expected in coming days.

Air Force officials have acknowledged, however, that the cost per gallon of the test fuel will be expensive.

Syntroleum can produce 42 gallons of synthetic fuel from 10,000 cubic feet of natural gas. The raw materials cost about $70.

If the military moves ahead with using the synthetic fuels, the Syntroleum technology could be used by factories elsewhere to produce the same 42 gallons of fuel from just $10 worth of coal, Mr. Holmes said.

"The United States is essentially the Saudi Arabia of coal," Mr. Holmes said. "It can be mined relatively inexpensively. We really believe that one of the things we can do to help our country's energy needs is to use the abundance of coal reserves."

Mr. Aimone said the large plants needed to produce nonconventional fuels did not exist and would have to be designed and built by the industry.

But he added: "We believe there are economic incentives as we invest in this, and invest with the industry at large, because there are vast coal reserves in this country. The economic pressures of rising oil prices can be moderated by the price of coal."
 
raVeneyes said:
That is incorrect, and you know it is incorrect.

is it incorrect because you say so...yea, thats it!

drilling for oil would solve many problems. ALSO getting the oil up and runnin again in iraq...and perhaps, now, some of us would not mind exploiting iraq for oil.

fossten said:
Incidentally, we don't buy nearly as much oil from OPEC as we do from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela.


kinda funny...but venezuela pays an avg of $.17 a gal! F THEM, lets take over oil countries, and quick.

raVeneyes said:
The major barrier to Ethanol use in the US is that Ethanol can not burn in the gasoline combustion engine...it requires some very extensive changes to the computer (air/fuel mix) and ignitors (spark plugs and timing) to burn properly without damaging the engine.

In my personal opinion the quickest way to lower our oil use would be to take the 30-40% we convert to diesel and replace it completely with biodiesel. Biodiesel is a 100% direct replacement for oil based diesel and requires no modifications of the vehicles what so ever. It also burns cleaner with no carbon emissions resulting from its use.


i agree 100%, biodiesel would be the best bet, but as of now, the government has no regulations on it, which means no taxes, and im sure that we'd sooner see jesus back here on earth before the government would allow a fuel to be sold without a federal tax.
 
MrWilson said:
is it incorrect because you say so...yea, thats it!
No...it is incorrect because as he and others have freely admitted, OPEC controls the prices of oil. OPEC does not control oil prices directly, but it does control oil prices by a system of treaties and agreements have allowed it to do so for decades. We don't even need to give a hypothetical for this, there is a real world example going on right now.

Venezuela is being pressured both economically and diplomatically to lower its oil production and raise the prices it pays for oil because the Venezuelan government nationalized the oil production in that country to keep oil prices low. By treaty, the US government is required to defend OPEC's interests and threaten embargo and military action against Venezuela for breaking the strangle hold OPEC has on prices and offering a competing price.

MrWilson said:
drilling for oil would solve many problems. ALSO getting the oil up and runnin again in iraq...and perhaps, now, some of us would not mind exploiting iraq for oil.
Iraq's oil belongs to the Iraqi people...the only ones that are going to get rich off Iraq are companies like Haliburton which are granted no-bid contracts for building facilities and Iraqi government insiders who get a line on the management contracts for those facilities.

MrWilson said:
kinda funny...but venezuela pays an avg of $.17 a gal! F THEM, lets take over oil countries, and quick.
We can not just take over sovereign nations because it would make us happy...

MrWilson said:
i agree 100%, biodiesel would be the best bet, but as of now, the government has no regulations on it, which means no taxes, and im sure that we'd sooner see jesus back here on earth before the government would allow a fuel to be sold without a federal tax.
It won't take long...people are already moving to regulate the collection and storage of waste cooking oil as we speak...
 
raVeneyes said:
No...it is incorrect because as he and others have freely admitted, OPEC controls the prices of oil. OPEC does not control oil prices directly, but it does control oil prices by a system of treaties and agreements have allowed it to do so for decades. We don't even need to give a hypothetical for this, there is a real world example going on right now.

im not disagreeing that opec doesnt have a say, obviously they do...but to blame that as THE cause is silly.

raVeneyes said:
We can not just take over sovereign nations because it would make us happy...

Why not? As Americans, it is our duty to do things just because it makes us happy. This would just be another instance of America being America! Are you unpatriotic, sir? Do you want to undermine the American way of life?

raVeneyes said:
It won't take long...people are already moving to regulate the collection and storage of waste cooking oil as we speak...

Thats the only reason i support mexicans comming here, more taco bell waste cooking oil to go arround.
 
MrWilson said:
im not disagreeing that opec doesnt have a say, obviously they do...but to blame that as THE cause is silly.
The major cause...as in the cause that is so much the responsibility that all other causes are meaningless.

MrWilson said:
Why not? As Americans, it is our duty to do things just because it makes us happy. This would just be another instance of America being America! Are you unpatriotic, sir? Do you want to undermine the American way of life?
Please tell me you're making fun.

Americans don't do things just to make ourselves happy (at least not as a national goal) we may do things to make us a stronger nation, but ignoring the sovereignty of other nations would DEFINITELY put us at a less strong position in the world... We invade Venezuela for doing nothing more than having a lot of oil, what's to stop China from invading Alaska? We wouldn't have the justification to say "Hey that's our land" we would only have the justification to say something if they killed some of our people.

MrWilson said:
the only reason i support mexicans comming here, more taco bell waste cooking oil to go arround.
Now that's funny...I don't care who you are.
 
raVeneyes said:
No...it is incorrect because as he and others have freely admitted, OPEC controls the prices of oil. OPEC does not control oil prices directly, but it does control oil prices by a system of treaties and agreements have allowed it to do so for decades. We don't even need to give a hypothetical for this, there is a real world example going on right now.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth, are you? You still don't get it. If we drill for our own oil, we can CONSUME OUR OWN OIL, thus reducing our need to buy from other countries, especially OPEC. Not to mention the supply increase having an effect on prices, since OPEC will have to lower theirs to compete with the newer supply. Either that or they'll have to find new buyers. Believe it or not, we don't disagree on this one as much as you think. I'm merely illustrating, using economic truisms, that drilling WILL reduce the influence of OPEC.

raVeneyes said:
Venezuela is being pressured both economically and diplomatically to lower its oil production and raise the prices it pays for oil because the Venezuelan government nationalized the oil production in that country to keep oil prices low. By treaty, the US government is required to defend OPEC's interests and threaten embargo and military action against Venezuela for breaking the strangle hold OPEC has on prices and offering a competing price.

State your sources for this dubious information, so we can all peruse it as opposed to being forced to take your word for it. Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously. That's how we do it here.

raVeneyes said:
Iraq's oil belongs to the Iraqi people...the only ones that are going to get rich off Iraq are companies like Haliburton which are granted no-bid contracts for building facilities and Iraqi government insiders who get a line on the management contracts for those facilities.

You sound like ONE BIG TALKING POINT. Explain IN DETAIL, citing reliable sources, all the companies that were not allowed to bid on these contracts. I suspect that you will find that Halliburton is the ONLY COMPANY qualified to do the kind of work they are being awarded.
 
fossten said:
Talking out of both sides of your mouth, are you? You still don't get it. If we drill for our own oil, we can CONSUME OUR OWN OIL, thus reducing our need to buy from other countries, especially OPEC. Not to mention the supply increase having an effect on prices, since OPEC will have to lower theirs to compete with the newer supply. Either that or they'll have to find new buyers. Believe it or not, we don't disagree on this one as much as you think. I'm merely illustrating, using economic truisms, that drilling WILL reduce the influence of OPEC.
We are signatories to a treaty with OPEC that does not allow us to sell oil to ourselves for less than they will sell it to us...so no, drilling for more oil does not mean we will pay less for it, nor does it mean the market will be glutted with oil.

Source opec's own web site:

"OPEC’s mission is to coordinate & unify the petroleum policies of Member Countries & ensure the stabilization of oil prices in order to secure an efficient, economic & regular supply of petroleum to consumers, a steady income to producers & a fair return on capital to those investing in the petroleum industry."

Wow... their own mission statement says it all.

fossten said:
State your sources for this dubious information, so we can all peruse it as opposed to being forced to take your word for it. Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously. That's how we do it here.
Sorry I didn't realize I needed to state sources for a story that's being reported on the news daily. Venezuela is in the news enough that you can find info on it by doing a search on google's news feed.

fossten said:
You sound like ONE BIG TALKING POINT. Explain IN DETAIL, citing reliable sources, all the companies that were not allowed to bid on these contracts. I suspect that you will find that Halliburton is the ONLY COMPANY qualified to do the kind of work they are being awarded.
Let's see...off the top of my head, companies that CAN build oil refining and drilling facilities as well or better than Halliburton: Valero, Exxonmobile, Shell, BP, EFI... I need to go on? All of these companies were not even allowed to bid on the project and Haliburton's bid was sealed and not allowed to be competed with.
 
raVeneyes said:
Source opec's own web site:

"OPEC’s mission is to coordinate & unify the petroleum policies of Member Countries & ensure the stabilization of oil prices in order to secure an efficient, economic & regular supply of petroleum to consumers, a steady income to producers & a fair return on capital to those investing in the petroleum industry."


Sounds like one big lube-less @ssF#$%ing, but in nicer wording...
 
raVeneyes said:
We are signatories to a treaty with OPEC that does not allow us to sell oil to ourselves for less than they will sell it to us...so no, drilling for more oil does not mean we will pay less for it, nor does it mean the market will be glutted with oil.

By the way, another move has been made in the Senate to change this problem: http://www.vanguardngr.com/articles/2002/world/w103052006.html

"In an unusual move fraught with implications for international relations, the US Senate Judiciary Commitee has okayed a bill, empowering the government to sue the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), for what it described as price fixing."

Not that Bush will let it happen this time, but maybe he might:

"The White House had opposed a similar measure last year, but has not yet done anything to checkmate the latest version."
 
95DevilleNS said:
Sounds like one big lube-less @ssF#$%ing, but in nicer wording...
Oh no...there would be lube involved, but they charge for it...after all they want to ensure the supply of oil products to the consumer...but they want to make sure that the producers make a "fair" profit on it and that investors in Oil make a return on their investment...
 
raVeneyes said:
By the way, another move has been made in the Senate to change this problem: http://www.vanguardngr.com/articles/2002/world/w103052006.html

"In an unusual move fraught with implications for international relations, the US Senate Judiciary Commitee has okayed a bill, empowering the government to sue the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), for what it described as price fixing."

Not that Bush will let it happen this time, but maybe he might:

"The White House had opposed a similar measure last year, but has not yet done anything to checkmate the latest version."


Of course he won't let it happen. Sue?!?! Sue who?!?!? Who's going to make them pay? Who's going to enforce the ruling? What court will rule? The US Supreme court? Like OPEC cares. The UN? Laughable...

Oh...and as far as the Halliburton comment. Halliburton provides a service to companies like Exxon, BP, etc. Kind of like NAVAIR and SPAWAR do for companies like BAE. Other companies like Harris, Rockwell Collins, AAR Cadillac and even HP, Gateway all have contracts that to those not involved in the procurement process may seem like handouts. However most of these companies secured their contracts long ago. There are situations where the US has to play with a certain company because the original contract stipulated it.

But hell, let's just get rid of that system. We could just make everything state run and spread the wealth to all. Sound like a plan Karl?
 
FreeFaller said:
Of course he won't let it happen. Sue?!?! Sue who?!?!? Who's going to make them pay? Who's going to enforce the ruling? What court will rule? The US Supreme court? Like OPEC cares. The UN? Laughable...
If you read the article:

"The Bill revokes the sovereign immunity member states of the cartel currently enjoy from US legal action and allows the Justice Department to sue them in US courts. Specifically, the Bill allows the US Attorney General to sue the oil producing group should it try to limit production or set prices."
 

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