which gun should I get next?

.45

SoonerLS said:
I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that a standard .45ACP load is subsonic, so you don't have to carry non-standard ammo to suppress it...
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'Sonic' happens at just over 1100 FPS. Therefore, almost all, even high performance loads are sub. And although I'm sure that sound suppressors are in common use, they aren't much used on auto-pistols. Most likely on SMGs. The published comments regarding the use of the 1911 platform guns by elites seem to center on the efficacy of the .45 ACP cartridge. And unstated, but likely, is the fact that there has been more focus on the gunsmithing of the 1911 than all other common platforms combined.

KS
 
cammerfe said:
Therefore, almost all, even high performance loads are sub. And although I'm sure that sound suppressors are in common use, they aren't much used on auto-pistols. Most likely on SMGs.
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Unless you're carrying a subsonic load, 9mm is supersonic. One of the (at the time) unique features of the HK MP5SD was that it didn't require subsonic 9mm for its suppressor to work.
 
You suck at tEh quoting system.


cammerfe said:
Frogman said:
... I can only cite personal real life experiences with "little bullets" and their stopping power.
I had in mind the published statistics collected from all the police departments around the country. Evan Marshall---former Detroit Police Officer---reports that even a 12 gauge slug doesn't have 100% stopping power. High performance .45 ACP, .44 Mag, and several others all cluster in the high 90% range and within a point or so of each other. These are the results gleaned from hundreds of shooting reports.
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You ever see a 12 Gauge round shave a human head right off it's torso? But we're not talking shotgun rounds, I believe (as you so eloquently reminded me) that we're talking about the 1911...?


Actually, regardless of barrel length, the Corbon DPX 185 with the Barnes bullet has at least a little over 1K of velocity and seems to group into less than two inches.
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And? You've only still got a little over 440ft lbs out of a short barrel. And it will average around 4 inch diameters at 25 yards. What's it group to 2 inches at, 10 feet?


Recoil, the adversary of placement, isn't dependent on bullet diameter.
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Huh... So a .22LR should have the same recoil as a 50BMG, (or vice versa) since according to you, it's not dependent on bullet diameter?

Recoil should be the same with a 50 grain .45 as it is with a 230grain .45?


Corbon DPX---see above.
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Did you?
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SWAT-type units all over the country seem to carry .45 ACP firearms regardless of what the rank-'n'-file of their departments carry. And elite military units seem to gravitate to the .45 also. I wonder why that is?
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Really?

Could it be because a lot of them are stubborn headed and think the 1911 platform is the bestest platform evah?

Hell even the SEAL teams standard issue sidearm is a P226-9-NAVY nowadays. The HK Mark 23 is long gone, only used for as a mission specific sidearm. I don't know how much more elite you can get... at least that's what I read in a pamphlet once.

'Sonic' happens at just over 1100 FPS. Therefore, almost all, even high performance loads are sub.
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9mm = Supersonic
.40 = Supersonic (with the exception of HEAVY grain ones like say a 200gr).
.45 = supersonic for the most part
.50AE = Supersonic

Hell, even a .22LR is almost a supersonic round out of a hand gun with at least a 6" bbl.

So... which round and almost all "high performance" rounds are subsonic?

And although I'm sure that sound suppressors are in common use, they aren't much used on auto-pistols.
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Oh?

Most likely on SMGs.
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I have a silenced knife. Ok, that made no sense, but duh... Of course most SMGs and PDW's are silenced.

The published comments regarding the use of the 1911 platform guns by elites seem to center on the efficacy of the .45 ACP cartridge.
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What "elites"?

And unstated, but likely, is the fact that there has been more focus on the gunsmithing of the 1911 than all other common platforms combined.
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That's a lot of gun smithing for a gun that "simply does it all", as you said. Why screw with "perfection"?
 
Not sure I'd worry about what other people think you should get next. Isn't your life about what you want? Get whatever helps you get your ya-ya's out, if ya follow my meaning.

Talking about ultimate guns, I apologize in advance for taking a little side trip off topic. I have a fairly intimate relationship with a certain 20mm gun system found on all of the jets I worked....F-111F, F-16, F-15. I guess the fondness for the M61A1 20mm gun system had to find a venue.....on my truck. :)

disconewvetplateoct2010.jpg


I have several 9mm's and with what I've read, (good reports based on genuine research) the 9mm has a better history than 45 cal does 'on record' for one shot stopping power. FYI, there are plenty of better calibers out there that were better yet but if you already fancy 9 mm, be advised it's really a pretty good round and the cool thing is the number of manufacturers out there that make guns in that caliber.
 
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One More Time

Frog---

I don't have either the time or the inclination to carry this on further so just a couple of comments---

I'm impressed with your ability to do a bedsheet post here. You probably pick your nose better than I do, as well.

All my comments here have been directed to the .45 ACP. Therefore my comments in regard to 'high performance' also relate to the .45. Smaller calibre guns, and their velocity, aren't addressed in my comments.

The Miami Shootout is an excellent example of the lack of stopping power of the 9X19 as well as the .38 Special.

KS
 
cammerfe said:
Frog---

I don't have either the time or the inclination to carry this on further so just a couple of comments---
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Have your 1911 post on your behalf then. After all, it simply does it all. :lol:

Come on, that was funny!

I'm impressed with your ability to do a bedsheet post here. You probably pick your nose better than I do, as well.
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Really? Getting personal now?

All my comments here have been directed to the .45 ACP. Therefore my comments in regard to 'high performance' also relate to the .45. Smaller calibre guns, and their velocity, aren't addressed in my comments.
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Can't argue why the .45 is the not OMG! OMG!@ Bestest round evah! without giving you examples and comparing it to other rounds.

The Miami Shootout is an excellent example of the lack of stopping power of the 9X19 as well as the .38 Special.

KS
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So? I can show you examples of a much smaller round that the DFW PD uses which cut a bad guy's heart in half. One shot. Dead.

Or the other time where the same smaller than .45 round shattered a bad guy's arm and took 2 of his gun fingers along for the ride.

What's your point?

I still stand by my statement: "The 1911 (and by extension, the .45) is not the gun that simply does it all".
 
cammerfe said:
The Miami Shootout is an excellent example of the lack of stopping power of the 9X19 as well as the .38 Special.
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Although the FBI blamed it on ammo, the Miami Shootout was really a failure of tactics and training. The Bad Guy received a Non-Survivable Wound in the early stages of the shootout, so I don't see how using a different pistol round would have made any difference.

If you really want to debunk the myth of stopping power, start reading the Medal of Honor citations. If artillery shells can't reliably stop someone, what makes you think pistol or rifle rounds can?
 
I think a 40cal is a good mix of stopping power and everyday useability. I do like the 1911's but I do not agree that they are the "king dingaling" of personal defense... to big / too bulky / small ammo capacity. So obviously they aren't going to be good for every situation.

I just wanted to post something... carry on.
 
gt95coupe said:
FNH FiveseveN!! Will defeat body armor and has 21 rounds! I love mine had it since june.
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No... sorry, it won't defeat body armor. Not unless you're running factory SS190 or comparable reloads.

The SS192 (well, SS195LF now) is not quite a body armor piercing round. It will go through a Level II vest, but by the time it clears it, there is very little energy behind the bullet. The 192LF (or old 192) will not go through a Level IIIA vest, let alone inflict damage afterwards.



Cal: About $1,300 MSRP. Wholesale is $937.
 
Frogman said:
No... sorry, it won't defeat body armor. Not unless you're running factory SS190 or comparable reloads.

The SS192 (well, SS195LF now) is not quite a body armor piercing round. It will go through a Level II vest, but by the time it clears it, there is very little energy behind the bullet. The 192LF (or old 192) will not go through a Level IIIA vest, let alone inflict damage afterwards.



Cal: About $1,300 MSRP. Wholesale is $937.
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Yes it will. You just cant use the SS195 or 197
go to eliteammunition.net
Type: 28 grain Trident PFP


Application: Civilian/Law Enforcement / Military.



Lead free Pre Fragmented Projectile. Bullet is designed to deliver maximum penetration against hard and soft barriers while generating substantial tissue damage after passing through .

Projectile fragments into 4 sections.

Capable of defeating Level II body armor while still penetrating 11.0 inches of Perma-Gel.

FiveseveN Pistol 2,570 fps 411 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,845 fps 503 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 3,095 fps 596 Ft-Lb’s
 
Which part of "comparable loads" eluded you?

/mean

Ok... Where do I start and at the same time keep it nice, since I like you...

Even Elite won't sell you true AP ammo. Level II vests are so 1990. I can't think of one Law Enforcement friend that's not running Level IIIA, nowadays. And I know me one or two throughout the world.

For example, the ExterminaTOR rounds that Elite sells are not true AP. The tests you quoted were done from 15 feet. I mean, hell you put enough energy behind a building, and it will go through a Level II vest.

True SS190 ammo (that's the AP version as I'm sure you know) will go through a Level IIIA vest at 50 Meters. That's 150 feet, almost 10 times the distance. All the while running at a mere 31gr round as opposed to the exterminaTOR's 45gr round.

Come talk to me after you've worn out two Five.seveN barrels and one P90 PDW barrel. I'm going to need the current (2nd) barrel replaced here in less than 7,000 rounds, as it too is wearing "thin".

I have well over 70K (that's THOUSAND) SS190 5.7x28mm rounds under my trigger finger. I've shot the 192 as well and despite what you read on the Interwebs, I know for a fact that it will not penetrate 11 inches of gel after the "civilian" version of the round goes through a level II vest.

Hell, the round will stop within 12 inches if it hits soft tissue off the bat, let alone Level II only cutting that short by an inch. Why? Because it's designed to do that by tumbling once it hits soft tissue. Much like a .223 round does.

Unfortunately, you're basing your knowledge on what you read. And, this if fine. Nothing wrong with that, really. However, I am basing my knowledge of the 5.7 platform on what I know from PERSONAL experience. I don't have a reason to inflate or deflate the factory 5.7x28mm round's performance. I know what it will do in real life... Or, so I read in a pamphlet once.
 
I don't think I'll ever find it necessary to shoot a cop and there are few others around Detroit who wear vests. So I guess I don't really care about vest penetration. I'm far more concerned about having to 'stop' bad guys.

KS
 
I agree, because after all, bad guys have never been known to wear body armor. :rolleyes:

Although I sort of agree with you KS. Personally, I don't foresee having to shoot a cop. But there is more to a round than just armor penetration.
 
cammerfe said:
I don't think I'll ever find it necessary to shoot a cop and there are few others around Detroit who wear vests. So I guess I don't really care about vest penetration. I'm far more concerned about having to 'stop' bad guys.

KS
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Its more about shot placement than caliber. A.32 will kill if its in the right place. and a .357 will not if the placement is bad.
There was a home invasion here in Chattanooga and the home owner shot a suspect 3 times with a .357 and he lived.

Frogman: whats the ss190 going for per box right now? Do you personally have any?
 
There are stories to support or denounce anything. I have to add a couple from the one shot stopping power article I read a while back. The writer was an old school .45 guy that admitted he wasn't happy with the results of how often the .45 failed to stop, even with multiple hits. I'll never forget a couple of his case studies, 1st was the one with two all day brawlers that decided to have an old style duel in the hallway of an apartment building. The .45 guy got the .22 guy first and put him down with a shot to center mass, the way you'd expect the impact energy of a .45 to do, however the lack of velocity didn't penetrate well enough and he got up with his .22 and killed the guy with a heart shot. The guy with the .45 slug in him survived (I'm pretty sure he was hit more than once but I don't have the article in front of me so I'll leave it at that). Then theres the off Duty USAF security policeman leaving a movie with his wife, they get jumped by a couple muggers, He fights off one guy but in the meantime his wife gets knifed, presumably several times before the husband can get to his .45 (out of his truck) and shoots the knife wielder several times in center mass. He goes down as expected. Husband turns his attention to getting wife to hospital so assumes the dude he shot was done for. After hours at the hospital while his wife goes through surgery, he leaves for whatever reason (she most likely was in recovery) and passed the same lowlife he shot coming in the emergency room door, under his own power.

This guy's research was thorough and only accepted the facts from police reports that were complete and he was very clear that he didn't include case studies unless they were fully documented. His research did not support .45 very well and showed that 9mm (as I stated before) did better than .45 at 'One shot stopping' power. If you're another one of these .45 hardcores and want to simply ignore this, it would be advisable to only use hot/+P loads to prevent becoming a statistic.
 
This doesn't apply to the OP since he lives in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, but I use a Glock 27 for my CCW. It's easy to find holsters and other accessories, and it's small and reliable. And I like the 40 caliber round.
 
One word answer for all the horror stories---Mozambique. Jeff Cooper once said, "If you're in a fist fight, you don't punch a guy and then step back to see if he'll fall down. You keep hitting him until he's on the ground and has been there for a time. The same thing goes for gun fights. Read and heed!

KS
 
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