Good Plan!

Thanks Marcus - I wonder how much debt these guys are carrying - since they don't seem to grasp the concept of you need to do more than just cut spending to wipe out a debt the size the US Government has accumulated...

You get another job -

And those stupid tax cuts... -

According to these same projections, the yearly deficit would rise to 6 to 7 percent of GDP by 2020. The Bush tax cuts would account for a significant chunk of this, considering that in each year they are in effect, the revenue lost because of them amounts to nearly 2 percent of GDP.

Compounding the problem: By increasing the government's debt, the tax cuts have already led to higher interest payments on that debt. So even if all of the cuts expire on Dec. 31, we will still be paying for them for years to come.


Interest guys - you seem to forget that part. Bush tax cuts created part of the debt - continue to create debt and now our interest on that debt continues to really rise. If each year you are adding $2 to the debt and are never paying it off - in 10 years you have $20 in debt because of compounded interest, in 20 years that goes to almost $40.

Once again the GOP should really show us they are serious about this - bite the bullet, and not only cut spending - but raise taxes, and really start reducing the debt.
 
Raising taxes does raise revenue even when taking different behaviour into account.
I would say the dynamic comes in at 25-45% of the static model.
In other words the revenue generated comes in at best at half of static projections.

Here in NY former Governor Patterson tacked on an extra 2% "millionaires tax" in 2009.
This extra surtax applies to anyone with income over 200k and couples over 300k so the "millionaire" label is typical political liar's marketing bullsh!t.

This amount of 2% more (9% NY tax instead of 7%) adds 35k to a 1 million income tax bill and has generated almost 1 Billion in tax income (800 million in 2010) for NY state.

For someone with 1 million or more in yearly income :p this amount is not a huge deal.
Cuomo has promised not to renew this temporary 2% tax to the howls of the teachers and other government trough feeders.

It's not that easy to just up and move an ongoing profitable capital equipment intensive business to another lower or no tax state.

The country will not perish if we have to pay 3% more in federal taxes.
But I think everybody has to pay not just the rich people.
If we don't renew the Bush tax cuts the everybody should pay because the lion's share of the revenues (1.6 trillion vs 800 Billion)came out of the hides of those making 200k or less.
That's where the real money is.

These "working class" people should pay more taxes because they are the ones who have not on their own saved much if anything for retirement and want these government programs that quite frankly the rich don't need or even want to pay into for that matter.
I remember an old Wise Guy episode with Ken Wahl where he said he wanted to breathe his last breath when he spent his last buck.

Those who haven't adequately prepared for their retirements will obviously reach that last buck a lot sooner than those who have had the will and discipline to plan for the future.

5000 Boomers are retiring every day and most of them have less than 50k in savings.
They have had it pretty good historically so why should the now less advantaged younger citizens have to pay for them and their shortsightedness.

If people knew the government would not be there to save them in old age and they would have to enter the carousel and fall on their own swords if they weren't prudent and conservative relative to their income we wouldn't have the current "Moral Hazard" of the entitlement system of the last 50 years.
 
And those stupid tax cuts... -

According to these same projections, the yearly deficit would rise to 6 to 7 percent of GDP by 2020. The Bush tax cuts would account for a significant chunk of this, considering that in each year they are in effect, the revenue lost because of them amounts to nearly 2 percent of GDP.

Compounding the problem: By increasing the government's debt, the tax cuts have already led to higher interest payments on that debt. So even if all of the cuts expire on Dec. 31, we will still be paying for them for years to come.

Again, which Foxpaws are we supposed to believe?

If you agree with what Sowell said, then what you cite is nothing more then an "educated guess" based in false assumptions and a flawed (static) analysis that, "mechanically calculat[es] how much revenue will come in if no one's behavior changes in the wake of a tax change." It is utterly worthless and doesn't confirm anything.

However, if you reject what Sowell says, then it makes perfect sense to cite that WaPo article.

So which is it?

Only one of those viewpoints has any logical coherence and conforms to economic reality.
 
It is utterly amazing how desperate the left is to distract from the necessity of spending cuts by saying we need to increase tax revenue as well.

It has already been pointed out that we have no way to do that with any degree of certainty. However, all the logic and evidence is rejected and ignored. When an economist is cited saying as much, he gets a brief acknowledgement then it is right back to promoting the false narrative as if the economist had never said anything.

Even if we...
  • Confiscate ALL income from households making over $250k
  • Confiscate ALL profits from every Fortune 500 company
  • Confiscate ALL salaries of all NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL players as well as ALL winnings of everyone in the PGA and in NASCAR
  • Evict EVERYONE in Beverly Hills and sell their home
  • Confiscate the ENTIRE fortunes of ALL american billionares and 100 of the "almost billionares"
We would still have to...
  • Confiscate all ad money ever spend on any Super Bowl
  • Confiscate ALL revenue generated by the Star Wars franchise
  • End funding of our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan
  • End all foreign aid
  • Tax EVERY American $40
...just to make it through 1 year of a $3.7 trillion budget. Then what?

After all the mock outrage, all the self-righteous condescension, the truth is that we have far surpassed the limits what we can pay for. The ONLY option we have is to get our spending under control.

However the left is desperate to avoid that by any means necessary.

If you will note, no one here has, in any way, confronted the fact that there is a HUGE distinction between tax rates and tax revenue due to the fact that people change their behavior in response tax rate changes. Yet in EVERY argument they make, they operationally assume that there is no behavior change.

They are premising their arguments on assumptions that they CAN NOT DEFEND. In fact, with that assumption taken away, they HAVE NO ARGUMENT.

If they were interested in appealing to reason, they would either defend that assumption or change their argument to be logically coherent without that assumption.

Instead, we keep getting a false narrative, an ignoring of any challenge of that narrative and condescension to anyone who disagrees with it. This is nothing but an attempt to bully through verbal verbosity.
 
It is utterly amazing how desperate the left is to distract from the necessity of spending cuts by saying we need to increase tax revenue as well.

It has already been pointed out that we have no way to do that with any degree of certainty. However, all the logic and evidence is rejected and ignored. When an economist is cited saying as much, he gets a brief acknowledgement then it is right back to promoting the false narrative as if the economist had never said anything.


Even if we...
  • Confiscate ALL income from households making over $250k
  • Confiscate ALL profits from every Fortune 500 company
  • Confiscate ALL salaries of all NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL players as well as ALL winnings of everyone in the PGA and in NASCAR
  • Evict EVERYONE in Beverly Hills and sell their home
  • Confiscate the ENTIRE fortunes of ALL american billionares and 100 of the "almost billionares"
We would still have to...
  • Confiscate all ad money ever spend on any Super Bowl
  • Confiscate ALL revenue generated by the Star Wars franchise
  • End funding of our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan
  • End all foreign aid
  • tax EVERY American $40
...just to make it through 1 year of a $3.7 trillion budget. Then what?

After all the mock outrage, all the self-righteous condescension, the truth is that we have far surpassed the limits what we can pay for. The ONLY option we have is to get our spending under control.

However the left is desperate to avoid that by any means necessary.

If you will note, no one here has not, in any way, confronted the fact that there is a HUGE distinction between tax rates and tax revenue due to the fact that people change their behavior in response tax rate changes. Yet in EVERY argument they make, they operationally assume that there is no behavior change.

They are premising their arguments on assumptions that they CAN NOT DEFEND. In fact, with that assumption taken away, they HAVE NO ARGUMENT.

If they were interested in appealing to reason, they would either defend that assumption or change their argument to be logically coherent without that assumption.

Instead, we keep getting a false narrative, an ignoring of any challenge of that narrative and condescension to anyone who disagrees with it. This is nothing but an attempt to bully through verbal verbosity.

_______________________________________________________________

You're funny.
Raising taxes marginally does increase revenue but not as high as projected.
If the states could get their internet sales tax in order people would pay it and go on.
The price of gas has gone up a lot and so far the economy has taken it.
 
Thanks Marcus - I wonder how much debt these guys are carrying - since they don't seem to grasp the concept of you need to do more than just cut spending to wipe out a debt the size the US Government has accumulated...

You get another job -

This is a false analogy. Raising tax rates is not comparable to "getting another job" because of the HUGE difference in certainty of income, a fact I have continually pointed out and you have ignored/agreed with.

I already made a more accurate analogy in an earlier post:
If you were personally in debt, you wouldn't take out a loan and invest it in lotto tickets. Yet that is essentially what you are proposing we do on a societal level when you promote raising tax rates as a way to get out of debt.
With lotto tickets and with tax rate increases, there is a HUGE degree of uncertainty as to income.
 
04', I think you have it partially right. Tax rate increases can lead to tax revenue increases but that is hardly a certainty because of the fact that people's behavior changes. This is graphically represented by the Laffer Curve:

745px-Laffer-Curvesvg.png
Up to a point (t) tax rate increases lead to tax revenue increases, but after that point, tax rate increases lead to revenue decreases.

The problem is in determining where 't' is.

The fact that the location of 't' on the graph is dynamic creates a huge amount of uncertainty in any analysis.
 
04', I think you have it partially right. Tax rate increases can lead to tax revenue increases but that is hardly a certainty because of the fact that people's behavior changes. This is graphically represented by the Laffer Curve:

745px-Laffer-Curvesvg.png
Up to a point (t) tax rate increases lead to tax revenue increases, but after that point, tax rate increases lead to revenue decreases.

The problem is in determining where (t) is. The fact that the location of (t) on the graph is not static is a huge factor in the uncertainty involved.

Yes fine.
The Laffer Curve is very general.
But you are weak in that you use dry theories in your arguments too much instead of more specific real world examples (which are more persuasive and people can relate to) to make your points.

My 2% NY surtax is a good example of a marginal tax rate increase that raised the tax haul by 800 million a year.(and I think only Mr Paychex Tom Gollisano took up residence in no tax Florida :p)

Also to take your example further since tax rates have been cut substantially since Reagan we're back on the up side of the Laffer Curve and increasing taxes will increase revenue.
 
But you are weak in that you use theories in your arguments too much instead of more specific real world examples (which are more persuasive and people can relate to) to make your points.

Real world examples are worthless without a means to interpret them, which is what the theories provide.
…without principles, all reasoning in politics, as in everything else, would only be a confused jumble of particular facts and details, without the means of drawing out any sort of theoretical or practical conclusion.
-Edmund Burke
Frankly, the citing of real world examples can (and with certain people in this thread, likely will) quickly devolved into an abstract debate of numbers and methodologies that is hard for most to follow.

The debate starts at the basic assumptions involved and the logic used in interpretation. When that is the focus, it is far easier for most to follow, IMO.

Economics in general is not a science but is closer to a philosophy (kinda in a gray area). Some schools of economics try to emphasis the more scientific end of things and use mathematical models to make specific projections but these approaches have a terrible track record, historically. It is these approaches that gave us the faulty and worthless "static analysis" in economics. Most of economics is moving away from that (outside of government institutions).

Economics is at it's most accurate, in my opinion, looking backwards at historical patterns in the economy and drawing logical conclusions from those patterns. When economists try to make anything more then general projections of the future, they tend to fail.

Unfortunately, our modern "scientifically-minded" culture tends to expect specifics even when they cannot be had with any degree of certainty.

My 2% NY surtax is a good example of a marginal tax rate increase that raised the tax haul by 800 million a year.

Do you have a link to that? I had heard the opposite; that the tax did not produce the revenue estimated and/or that it actually reduced revenue. It has been a while since I read anything about it, though.
 
Lawmakers, Businesses and Residents at Odds Over 'Millionaire's Tax'

The lower Hudson Valley is home to more top earners than anywhere else in the state, making it a hotbed of debate over the expiration of a tax surcharge on wealthy New Yorkers.
By Dan Wiessner
| April 6, 2011

http://peekskill.patch.com/articles...and-residents-at-odds-over-millionaires-tax-2

Residents of the lower Hudson Valley stand to reap the biggest breaks when a tax on wealthy New Yorkers expires at the end of this year, according to an analysis by a nonprofit group.
The so-called "millionaire's tax," which took effect in 2009, imposes a surcharge on singles who make more than $200,000 and joint filers who make more than $300,000 and has resulted in a windfall of nearly $12 billion for the state. A number of Democratic lawmakers have sought to extend the tax, but Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the Senate's Republican majority staunchly oppose it.

The Center for Working Families, the nonprofit arm of the liberal Working Families Party, released a report last week that breaks down income distribution by state Senate and Assembly district. According to the analysis, which is based on 2005 income tax filings from the State Department of Taxation & Finance, the 88th and 89th Assembly districts are home to a greater percentage of top earners than any other legislative districts in New York. Those districts are represented by Assemblywoman Amy Paulin (D-Scarsdale) and Assemblyman Bob Castelli (R-Goldens Bridge), respectively.

"The $200,000 threshold is not much money to live in Westchester County," said Paulin, who voted against the surcharge in 2008. "I realize it's a lot of money to some people, but it certainly doesn't buy a millionaire's home."

In her district, which includes the wealthy enclaves of Scarsdale, Eastchester, Pelham and parts of New Rochelle, 13.9 percent of residents fall under the umbrella of the tax. Castelli's district is a close second at 13.4 percent. The assemblyman was not available for comment, but has said recently that he does not support the tax in its current form.
Bill, who lives in Paulin's district and expects to earn just under $500,000 this year as an independent lobbyist and business consultant, echoed the assemblywoman's assertion that the area's high cost of living can put a strain on a high earner's budget.
"My property tax bill was $32,000 last year, so if you want to talk about the wealthy paying for services, there you have it," said Bill, who did not want his last name published.

"I have a kid at a private college, another at a private high school, and I support my parents. That $5,000 [from the millionaire's tax] makes a difference, and I'm going to spend it and put it back into the economy, not sock it away in the bank or buy a yacht or a Pacific island."
During the state budget battle, which ended last week, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver floated a proposal to tax state residents who earn more than $1 million per year. According to the Assembly's budget resolution, the tax would have raised $700 million and offset deep cuts to education.The tax became the biggest flash-point of the budget process, with hundreds of protesters occupying the Capitol on March 30, the day lawmakers passed the $132.5 billion budget, which closes a $10 billion budget gap without raising taxes or borrowing. The protesters were calling for the tax to be extended to avoid cuts to education and social services.
In the 37th Senate district, which includes Westchester's Sound Shore communities and is represented by Sen. Suzi Oppenheimer (D-Mamaroneck), 11.6 percent of residents have incomes above the current threshold. The senator said she does not support the current tax, but does support the proposal to tax those who make more than $1 million.
"Many of the wealthy people in my district that I have had a chance to speak with say that it's the right thing to do," she said.
"It's a fair tax, and it's certainly a whole lot fairer than our property tax. If we're going to pay for services one way or the other, I'd rather pay through a progressive tax."
But "fair" is subjective, and many opponents of the tax say the measure is completely unfair. Justin Higginbottom of the Tax Foundation, a conservative think-tank, called the surcharge "opportunism."
"Tuning up the tax rate to raise a billion dollars from a select minority goes beyond most concepts of fairness, even if one believes the wealthy owe a bit more to society," Higginbottom wrote on the group's blog.
While Westchester is home to the greatest concentration of wealthy New Yorkers, legislative districts in Rockland and Putnam tend to be wealthier than the state as a whole, where 2 percent of residents earn enough to qualify for the surcharge.
Putnam is covered by the 40th Senate district, represented by Sen. Greg Ball (R-Patterson), where 5.3 percent of residents make enough for the additional tax. Ball opposes the surcharge, which he recently called a "job killer."
Lisa, who lives in Mahopac and retired from a lucrative marketing job five years ago to spend more time with her two young children, said that her husband could make as much as $750,000 this year. Lisa, who also declined to give her last name, said that she and her husband, who owns a stable of small businesses in Putnam and northern Westchester, both believe that the wealthy should pay higher taxes during economic downturns.
"We've been blessed. Our kids have everything they need, and when [the state is] giving less to schools and homeless shelters and seniors, I really don't see a problem with paying a bit more," she said.
"When times are good, like they were 10 years ago, then I could see them getting rid of this tax. But right now it looks like they need the money, and what I don't want to end up doing is paying for bigger problems that come later on."
In the 38th Senate district, which covers all of Rockland and parts of Orange County and is represented by freshman Sen. David Carlucci (D-Clarkstown), 3.1 percent of residents are subject to the surcharge. Carlucci last week said he was disappointed that lawmakers failed to include an extension of the tax in the budget.
"When we're talking about these cuts across the board, we want a budget that's as equitable as possible," Carlucci said.
"If we're providing cuts to some of our most vulnerable populations, especially cuts to the classroom, I think it's important that we extend the millionaire's tax and not give a tax break to the wealthiest New Yorkers."
Some of the staunchest opponents of the tax are business groups, who say that allowing it to expire sends a message to businesses that the state is serious about ending years of tax-and-spend policies and creating a friendlier climate for new and expanding businesses.
"In Westchester we have 6 million square feet of vacant class-A office building space, which is as big a threat as you're ever going to get," said Al DelBello, the chairman of the Westchester County Association and a former lieutenant governor, county executive and mayor of Yonkers.
"That has to do with the fact that companies who do business here can't afford to pay the salaries necessary to house and employ people in this region.""
"To add any tax of any sort," DelBello said, "is just going to drive more and more businesses out of the county."
Silver, the Assembly speaker, has indicated that he will push to pass the modified tax on those who earn more than $1 million, but Cuomo's staunch opposition means the measure has little chance of becoming law.

______________________________________________________________-
Arguments need to based in reality so average Americans clearly understand them and not so much in high IQ scholarly theory.
A good example validates a theory in the same way that a picture is worth a thousand words.
Evidently the 7-800 million figure is for extending the surtax to only people with an income of 1 million+ and the surtax has been killed (for now)

Raising 12 Billion (if this story is correct) in NY in 2 years through a 2% surtax on the highest earners shows just how much money is actually out there.
 
A good example validates a theory in the same way that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Agreed, but the theory has to be accurately understood first. Without that point of reference, it is very easy to be mislead and distort the theory to give the illusion that certain examples invalidate a theory when they actually confirm it.

As you can see in this thread, even the most basic of premises cannot be agreed upon and little discussion can take place because we are hung up on accepting the very idea that tax rates are not directly tied to tax revenue due to human nature.

Thanks for the link. ;)
 
Anyway, back to the issue of Paul Ryan's brilliant plan. In the news right now is more disinformation and misleading fear-Mongering then actual truth about his plan. Goldberg's piece does a good job of putting things in perspective, IMO.
Complaints about Budget Plan Veer Off Path
By Jonah Goldberg

Republicans want to "end Medicare as we know it."

Cue cat shriek!

This "end Medicare as we know it" line--and many like it ("end Medicaid as we know it," "end carbon-based life as we know it," etc.)--is the lead-off talking point for the entire Democratic party in response to Rep. Paul Ryan's just-released budget proposal, "The Path to Prosperity."

Here's the thing: Of course he wants to end Medicare as we know it. You know why? Because the way we know it right now, the program is barreling toward insolvency.

Personally, if I were on a plane that had one engine out and was belching smoke, I would certainly hope somebody with some judgment and competence might calmly remove his oxygen mask long enough to suggest "ending this flight as we know it."

I should back up. In case you haven't been paying attention, Ryan, chairman of the House Budget Committee and a would-be green-eyeshaded savior of the Republic, has come out with a 2012 budget proposal that actually averts what Ryan rightly calls the "most predictable crisis in the history of our country."

In brief, he proposes:
  • Turning Medicaid into a block grant to the states -- the way we did for the immensely successful welfare reform of the 1990s -- in order to allow for more flexibility and experimentation.
  • Transforming Medicare into a defined contribution plan similar to what government employees and congressmen already have. Seniors will get a direct subsidy to buy insurance for themselves (along the lines of the popular prescription drug benefit enacted under George W. Bush). The hope is that seniors will help drive cost savings in the medical sector if they actually care about the price of services.
  • Closing out various tax loopholes and corporate welfare -- like ethanol subsidies -- in order to lower tax rates and streamline the tax code without losing revenue.
  • Freezing spending below 2008 levels for five years.
In response, Democrats have come unglued like wallpaper in an un-air-conditioned Saigon motel in August.

The Ryan plan is "a path to poverty for America's seniors & children and a road to riches for big oil," Nancy Pelosi announced on Twitter. Meanwhile, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D., Ill.) proclaimed the Ryan plan a "war on seniors," even though current seniors--and anyone 55 or older--are entirely exempt from Ryan's Medicare proposal.

Let me say that again: No one who is currently elderly or who will be elderly within the next 10 years will see their Medicare change--at all, ever--according to Ryan's plan.

You can hardly say the same thing about the president's plan, or the congressional Democrats' plan (since they don't have one), or, most importantly, the status quo--because under them, our metaphorical plane will crash into a mountainside of insurmountable debt. That's why Ryan's plan is not an attempt to destroy the social safety net, it's an attempt to mend it.

(Oh, and since only Republican talking points are subject to strict scrutiny from the "objective" press, let me quickly rebut Nancy Pelosi & Co.'s nonsense about "big oil." Oil companies get the same business tax breaks as every other company. These are mostly what Democrats mean when they talk about giveaways to big oil. The Ryan plan would rightly eliminate many such breaks, while lowering the corporate-tax rate to a level competitive with other industrialized nations. The only "road to riches" for the oil companies in the Ryan plan is its call to allow more oil drilling on American soil, which, yes, would generate profits for oil companies--and tax revenues for the government and jobs for Americans and lower gas prices, too. The villains.)

But, but, but, sputter Ryan's detractors, we can't rewrite the social contract between the government and our seniors. Again, we're not talking about that. We're talking about revising the arrangement between the government and people who will be seniors more than a decade from now.

Regardless, let's talk about this solemn promise in a bit more detail. Democrats sound a little like the passenger on the failing plane who complains, "You can't end this flight as we know it! The airline promised we could get to Cincinnati!"

I'll give you a hint what's wrong with this. The correct response to such complaints isn't, "Oh, they promised? Well, let me tell the captain to stick to his original flight plan. I'm sure he'll be delighted to violate the laws of physics in order to honor that promise."​
 
Agreed, but the theory has to be accurately understood first. Without that point of reference, it is very easy to be mislead and distort the theory to give the illusion that certain examples invalidate a theory when they actually confirm it.

As you can see in this thread, even the most basic of premises cannot be agreed upon and little discussion can take place because we are hung up on accepting the very idea that tax rates are not directly tied to tax revenue due to human nature.

This plays into my pet theory of the contradiction of the human being.
Wisdom comes from recognizing and sorting out the contradictions, striking a balance that leaves everyone equally p!ssed off or equally(un)happy depending on your expectations.
 
This plays into my pet theory of the contradiction of the human being.
Wisdom comes from recognizing and sorting out the contradictions, striking a balance that leaves everyone equally p!ssed off or equally(un)happy depending on your expectations.

What contradictions in human nature, specifically?

While individuals are unique, I assume you would agree that there are certain things that are generally universal like
  • need for sustenance
  • need for shelter
  • certain base psychological motivations
Would you agree that there can be certain patterns in human action that most (not all) people generally conform to in certain circumstances?

Do you think there are certain contradictions that cannot be logically accounted for?
 
Anyway, back to the issue of Paul Ryan's brilliant plan. In the news right now is more disinformation and misleading fear-Mongering then actual truth about his plan. Goldberg's piece does a good job of putting things in perspective, IMO.
Complaints about Budget Plan Veer Off Path
By Jonah Goldberg

Republicans want to "end Medicare as we know it."

Cue cat shriek!

This "end Medicare as we know it" line--and many like it ("end Medicaid as we know it," "end carbon-based life as we know it," etc.)--is the lead-off talking point for the entire Democratic party in response to Rep. Paul Ryan's just-released budget proposal, "The Path to Prosperity."

Here's the thing: Of course he wants to end Medicare as we know it. You know why? Because the way we know it right now, the program is barreling toward insolvency.

Personally, if I were on a plane that had one engine out and was belching smoke, I would certainly hope somebody with some judgment and competence might calmly remove his oxygen mask long enough to suggest "ending this flight as we know it."

I should back up. In case you haven't been paying attention, Ryan, chairman of the House Budget Committee and a would-be green-eyeshaded savior of the Republic, has come out with a 2012 budget proposal that actually averts what Ryan rightly calls the "most predictable crisis in the history of our country."


In brief, he proposes:
  • Turning Medicaid into a block grant to the states -- the way we did for the immensely successful welfare reform of the 1990s -- in order to allow for more flexibility and experimentation.
  • Transforming Medicare into a defined contribution plan similar to what government employees and congressmen already have. Seniors will get a direct subsidy to buy insurance for themselves (along the lines of the popular prescription drug benefit enacted under George W. Bush). The hope is that seniors will help drive cost savings in the medical sector if they actually care about the price of services.
  • Closing out various tax loopholes and corporate welfare -- like ethanol subsidies -- in order to lower tax rates and streamline the tax code without losing revenue.
  • Freezing spending below 2008 levels for five years.
In response, Democrats have come unglued like wallpaper in an un-air-conditioned Saigon motel in August.

The Ryan plan is "a path to poverty for America's seniors & children and a road to riches for big oil," Nancy Pelosi announced on Twitter. Meanwhile, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D., Ill.) proclaimed the Ryan plan a "war on seniors," even though current seniors--and anyone 55 or older--are entirely exempt from Ryan's Medicare proposal.

Let me say that again: No one who is currently elderly or who will be elderly within the next 10 years will see their Medicare change--at all, ever--according to Ryan's plan.

You can hardly say the same thing about the president's plan, or the congressional Democrats' plan (since they don't have one), or, most importantly, the status quo--because under them, our metaphorical plane will crash into a mountainside of insurmountable debt. That's why Ryan's plan is not an attempt to destroy the social safety net, it's an attempt to mend it.

(Oh, and since only Republican talking points are subject to strict scrutiny from the "objective" press, let me quickly rebut Nancy Pelosi & Co.'s nonsense about "big oil." Oil companies get the same business tax breaks as every other company. These are mostly what Democrats mean when they talk about giveaways to big oil. The Ryan plan would rightly eliminate many such breaks, while lowering the corporate-tax rate to a level competitive with other industrialized nations. The only "road to riches" for the oil companies in the Ryan plan is its call to allow more oil drilling on American soil, which, yes, would generate profits for oil companies--and tax revenues for the government and jobs for Americans and lower gas prices, too. The villains.)

But, but, but, sputter Ryan's detractors, we can't rewrite the social contract between the government and our seniors. Again, we're not talking about that. We're talking about revising the arrangement between the government and people who will be seniors more than a decade from now.

Regardless, let's talk about this solemn promise in a bit more detail. Democrats sound a little like the passenger on the failing plane who complains, "You can't end this flight as we know it! The airline promised we could get to Cincinnati!"

I'll give you a hint what's wrong with this. The correct response to such complaints isn't, "Oh, they promised? Well, let me tell the captain to stick to his original flight plan. I'm sure he'll be delighted to violate the laws of physics in order to honor that promise."


It's the government that drives business into moral chinanery and not the other way around.
Strong business doesn't need the government's "help"
That was Michael Kinsley's main thrust here.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=73848

That is the big contradiction when democrats hypocritically attack business.
Running a government protection racket to get the money you "need" by threatening big business is the American Way.
 
What contradictions in human nature, specifically?

For instance the contradiction of self interest vs the societal interest-what's good for me(the general "me") is not nessesarily good for the population in general.

The contradiction of all men are created equal(of equal opportunity)
in contrast to the competative society where the spoils go to the strong ruthless and swift and not the moral and just,(just because people are moral and just does not mean they get the rewards)
 
The contradiction of all men are created equal(of equal opportunity)
in contrast to the competative society where the spoils go to the strong ruthless and swift and not the moral and just,(just because people are moral and just does not mean they get the rewards)

I see this contradiction as being dependent on a number of factors, not the least of which is the character of a society.

Certain societies are more prone to the "strong ruthless and swift" winning out over "the moral and just". I don't see it as so much something that is necessarily endemic of capitalism generally. There are a number of other factors that lead capitalism to the dynamic you talk about.

An interesting side not, Adam Smith was a moral philosopher as well as an economist and had some interesting thoughts on these kind of things. That dynamic is why he saw it necessary for some government in the market; specifically in enforcement of contracts and, more generally, ensuring transparency.
 
It's the government that drives business into moral chinanery and not the other way around.
Strong business doesn't need the government's "help"
That was Michael Kinsley's main thrust here.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=73848

That is the big contradiction when democrats hypocritically attack business.
Running a government protection racket to get the money you "need" by threatening big business is the American Way.

Bingo!

This is where we get notions of, "too big to fail".

Unfortunately, the distinction between corporatism and capitalism gets lost on the left...
 
I see this contradiction as being dependent on a number of factors, not the least of which is the character of a society.

Certain societies are more prone to the "strong ruthless and swift" winning out over "the moral and just". I don't see it as so much something that is necessarily endemic of capitalism generally. There are a number of other factors that lead capitalism to the dynamic you talk about.

An interesting side not, Adam Smith was a moral philosopher as well as an economist and had some interesting thoughts on these kind of things. That dynamic is why he saw it necessary for some government in the market; specifically in enforcement of contracts and, more generally, ensuring transparency.

I wasn't refering to capitalism specifically but to the human being in general.
Societies may be different but some things are universal like emotions and the fact no one asks to be born yet we are born to die, a contradiction in itself.
Rehnquest made an effort to lead the SCOTUS even on his deathbed getting dressed to go to work when surely he must have realized the pointlessness of denying his pending mortality.

The founding fathers who said We The People and All Men are Created Equal were rich white landowners who kept slaves and treated women as property.

Apparently they didn't see themselves as a contradiction though we may today.
 
Would you agree that there can be certain patterns in human action that most (not all) people generally conform to in certain circumstances?

Do you think there are certain contradictions that cannot be logically accounted for?
__________________

Yes we are all the same but different.
If shots are fired people duck to the ground (except Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now :D)

We all function in the same biological way and need to eat and sleep and belong somewhere and so on.
A smile is a universal gesture.

A human being is a bundle of competing qualities of various virtues and some things about life will remain a mystery no matter how much logic we apply.
Do we have to be cruel to be kind?

In the right measure...it means that I love you
(that the government is giving us medicine that's good for us as a society)
 
human being is a bundle of competing qualities of various virtues and some things about life will remain a mystery no matter how much logic we apply.

Agreed...
 
Hey '04, is that actually you, or is that P. Cellars?:D

KS

I'm also President Muffley! :D
The sane sober voice of reason in a crazy world. ;)
And Group Captain Lionel Mandrake. :p
Dr Strangelove fits my contradiction of man theories perfectly down to rooting for "Major Kong" Slim Pickens to drop the H Bomb and set off the Doomsday Machine so some of us selected can go underground and bed multiple beautiful women to mix up the gene pool and ensure the survival of the human race!

Strangelove suggests a sex ratio of "ten females to each male," with the women selected for their stimulating sexual characteristics and the men selected for youth, health, intellectual capabilities and importance in business and government. He points out that with proper breeding techniques, the survivors could work themselves up to the present Gross National Product in 20 years and emerge after the radioactivity has ceased in about 100 years. At one point, Strangelove's errant right arm tries to strangle him.

It took MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) for us to not vaporize each other...

Strangelove is "arguably the best political satire of the century." Roger Ebert

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Paul Ryan Says Democrats Flee 'Adult Conversation' on Budget

by Jason Mattera

04/08/2011
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=42802
It’s on.

Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin fired back at his Democratic critics over their hysterical reactions to the budget proposal he released earlier this week.

“They [the Democrats] are so fundamentally unserious about this [fiscal crisis],” he told HUMAN EVENTS in an exclusive, that “they are in political attack mode. This is hardly the adult conversation we were hoping to achieve by putting out ideas.”

Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, added:

“These people [Democrats] have been in Congress a long time. Clearly they see the fiscal problems. Clearly they know the road ahead is a debt crisis. They must be complicit with it if they’re willing to use this type of demagoguery and rhetoric. I find it really quite amazing. It’s politics. I don’t know what else to conclude.”

The day Ryan released his much-anticipated 2012 budget, Nancy Pelosi took to Twitter to call it a “path to poverty for America’s seniors and children and a road to riches for Big Oil.”

Not to be outdone by Pelosi, a long list of Democrats lined up to inject their own overblown responses to the GOP’s 73-page “Path to Prosperity” document.

“Waging war on American workers,” said Rep. Xavier Becerra (D.-Calif.).

The new chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, described it a “death trap for seniors.”

“Pulling the rug out from under seniors,” said Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D.-Mich.).

“The Tea Party has hijacked the Republican caucus,” said House Budget Committee ranking member Chris Van Hollen (D.-Md.)

Ryan’s aim is “government so small you can drown it in a bathtub,” said Rep. John Larson (D.-Conn.), before adding that the reforms open “a second front: a war on seniors.”

A flabbergasted Ryan argued that if liberal lawmakers really wanted to preserve a social safety net for the most vulnerable among us, they would bear-hug his commitment to restructure a system that every economist warns is severely bankrupt.

“The path we are on is the worst path for the elderly and the poor because it’s a path of empty promises,” Ryan told HUMAN EVENTS. “The government is making trillions of dollars of empty promises to these people who are believing in these programs.”

Under Ryan’s plan, both Medicare and Medicaid spending would increase, albeit not at the same unsustainable levels that it would if nothing is done, which is the case with the President’s 2012 budget proposal. It would grant flexibility to the states to zero-in on the truly needed while eliminating the perverse financial incentives that encourage them to expand their welfare rolls.

On Medicare specifically, a House GOP official told HUMAN EVENTS that the “Democrats have made a conscious effort in the President’s budget to not protect Medicare, therefore, letting it go bankrupt by 2029,” while adding that under its current trajectory, benefits would have to be slashed by 15% and Medicare payroll taxes would need to increase by 23%.

Entitlement spending altogether is set to gobble all of America’s tax revenue if no reforms are enacted.

As Ryan’s budget underscores, “Absent action, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid will soon grow to consume every dollar of revenue that the government raises in taxes. At that point, policy makers would be left with no good options. Making do without any federal government departments, including the military, is not really an option and neither is raising taxes to a level that no free and prosperous economy could sustain.

The Congressional Budget Office’s early analysis of Ryan’s “Path to Prosperity” concluded that there would be “much less uncertainty about future federal spending on Medicare and Medicaid” than “exists under current law.”

Ryan’s sharp words were reserved for Obama as well, calling into question the President’s ability to lead.

Quoth Ryan:

“The week we’re trying to engage on cutting spending and having an adult conversation on the budget, his [Obama’s] party leaders use demagoguery, and he launches his reelection campaign. He’s a very good politician, but what we need right now is a really good leader, and I don’t see any leadership.”

In the end, Ryan’s confident that the Americans won’t get suckered by overheated Washington rhetoric.

“The great comfort I get out of this [hysteria] is that the American people have figured it out. They are way ahead of the political class in Washington, D.C. That kind of over-the-top rhetoric, it’s just demeaning to the country.”

_______________________________________________________________

Say what you will but Ryan has certainly jump started the conversation in a new way.
I'm interested to see what ideas for cuts in spending the Democrats will come up with.
After we get spending cuts and get the government to live under some discipline then we can entertain raising marginal tax rates.
 
Say what you will but Ryan has certainly jump started the conversation in a new way.

The problem is, one side of the political aisle is working desperately to avoid that conversation and undercut it before it starts. As they always do.

I'm interested to see what ideas for cuts in spending the Democrats will come up with.

Well, we do have "The Peoples Budget" from the progressive caucus which will...
  • Increase payroll taxes.
  • Reintroduce the tax hikes on small businesses that were threatened last year.
  • Impose new tax hikes on highest bracket, reaching 47%.
  • New taxes on foreign earnings.
  • “Crisis responsibility fee.” Which sounds better than “Soak stockholders of banks for accepting TARP money tax.”
  • “Financial speculation tax.” Which sounds better than “the twenty-first century equivalent of the Stamp Act:” it’s a tax on electronic stock transactions.
  • $1,450,000,000,000 in new spending.
  • Public option.
  • Cuts to military.
Which side of the aisle is living in the real world and which side of the aisle is living in economic fantasy land?
 

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