"Brain-dead Conservatives:" Whose side are you on, the populists or the elitists?

shagdrum

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"Brain-dead Conservatives:" Whose side are you on, the populists or the elitists?
By: Richard A. Viguerie and Steven J. Allen

If some commentators had their way, the conservative movement would toss out the raucous “tea party” people and remake itself as a gaggle of eggheads. We would be fools to do so. Here’s why:

An army in the ancient world needed foot-soldiers, charioteers, and archers. A football team today needs an offense, a defense, and special teams. Leave out one element, and the entire enterprise usually founders. (Yeah, we’re talkin’ to you, Redskins.) And a political movement needs –
  • Intellectuals, who develop ideas and apply old ideas to new circumstances (Edmund Burke, Adam Smith)
  • Activists, who explain ideas to the public and rally people around those ideas (Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine), and
  • Politicians, who put those ideas into practice in government (John Adams, Thomas Jefferson).
The divisions between the categories are not absolute. In the modern conservative movement, William F. Buckley Jr. and Milton Friedman straddled the line between intellectuals and activists, and Ronald Reagan the line between activists and politicians. Nevertheless, conservatism, like any political movement, is most successful when it is strong in all three aspects.

In the years immediately after the defeat of Barry Goldwater’s 1964 presidential campaign, Buckley became the public face of the conservative movement – or, at least, the face that the liberal media considered respectable.

Buckley was witty, an Ivy Leaguer, and a man of a great intellect, and he had close friendships with prominent figures among the liberal elite. In an era when conservatism was thought by many people to be finished as a political movement, Buckley, with his magazine, his newspaper column, and his TV show, kept the conservative flame alive – almost single-handedly, it seemed at times.

Buckley’s prominence was rooted in his talent, of course, but it was also rooted in the fact that other elements of conservatism were weak. Yes, there were tens of thousands of conservative activists out there, but they were poorly organized and were always playing catchup to the liberals.

As for conservative officeholders, consider this: When Ronald Reagan ran for president in 1976, his endorsers included only two governors and only two U.S. Senators.

Commentators who pine for the intellectual-dominated conservative movement of the good ol’ days are yearning for an illusion. Looking back, the movement of the late ’60s and much of the ’70s seems to have been dominated by Buckley, his colleagues at National Review magazine, and other intellectuals like Nobel Prize winners F.A. Hayek and Milton Friedman. But that’s because the movement was so weak in other areas.

In recent years, the conservative movement was largely dismantled by George W. Bush, who managed to discredit conservatism while, to a great extent, practicing liberalism. Now President Obama is working feverishly to rebuild the conservative movement. His decision to govern from the Far Left, rather than from the left-of-center as he promised, has energized a new generation of activists.

Among the millions of new conservative activists inspired by Obama, some are uncouth, and a few say or write things that are wrongheaded or that bring embarrassment to the token Republicans who get invited to cocktail parties in Manhattan or Georgetown.

As time passes – as the new activists gain experience and as they learn more about politics and about conservatism – they will become more effective and more in tune with the movement’s intellectual foundation.

Some commentators seem to believe that, because the new generation of conservative activists is populist, it is anti-intellectual. That’s based on a misunderstanding of populism.

Populism is the belief that the people should rule themselves. It is the opposite of elitism (or progressivism), which holds that society should be ruled by a credentialed elite – by those who come from the right families or went to Ivy League schools or who have big money or political influence. As Thomas Jefferson noted:

“Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depository of the public interests.
“In every country these two parties exist, and in every one where they are free to think, speak, and write, they will declare themselves. Call them . . . by whatever name you please, they are the same parties still, and pursue the same object.”

The battle-lines in American politics today are drawn between liberals, the would-be aristocrats who would control every aspect of our lives, and conservatives, who represent the interests and values of most Americans and who believe that people should be free. In that conflict, intellectuals and non-intellectuals will be among those picking up their pitchforks.
 
Good point made in the article. The elitist Republican :q:q:q:q:q:q:qs desperate to be invited to the good Georgetown parties have undermined this country in ways that is nearly treasonous.

And, not meaning to hijack the thread, but this brings into question the labels that are being used today.

Conservatism is a term that is used to group too many people together.

A cultural traditionalist, who is labeled a conservative, may embrace the same kind of government intervention and abuse of power that the fringe Democrats embrace- just for different ends.

They really aren't all that different.

And some kind of libertarian pot head might reject the expansion of federal powers into his life and align himself with a "conservative" that simply believes in federalism and the restoration of the constitution.

The left/right paradigm isn't going to continue to work.
It's about less government or more government. More personal liberty or less. Tyranny or liberty.
 
The left/right paradigm isn't going to continue to work.
It's about less government or more government. More personal liberty or less. Tyranny or liberty.

Cal, so how do you place those who don’t fall into some of those nicely stated ‘this or that’ statements you have here…

There are plenty of people who state they are for less government, but would like to infringe on personal rights. I certainly saw it at the town hall meetings I went to. There are also those who want more personal freedom, but also want a stronger central government. You can be in a socialist economic state and have a ton of personal freedoms, and you can be in a capitalistic society and have your personal rights stripped away.

Or do you think that those who tout less government are serious when it really comes to ‘less government’ or does it mean ‘government that is less where I want it.’ Don’t step on my business, don’t take my money, don’t take my guns. But, where they want government – don’t let gays be married, don’t let there be abortion, don’t legalize marijuana, put God into government, they are quite willing to let government take up those causes.

I know they used to try to have this dual axis political scale that broke down social tendencies and economic tendencies. Social Liberal/Fiscal Conservative, Social Conservative/ Fiscal Liberal (a very rare occurrence). So do you think that there should now be another political scale that uses personal liberties and government magnitude (for lack of something better – it isn’t really ‘magnitude’ I need to come up with a better term) as its axis? Less government/government enforced morals. More government/self enforced morals, et al…

Oh, it didn't work for the elitist Republicans ba$tard$- they still didn't get invited to the good parties...;)
 
You can be in a socialist economic state and have a ton of personal freedoms, and you can be in a capitalistic society and have your personal rights stripped away.

Are you truly that ignorant or are you looking to mislead?
 
Shag - why can't you have a socialist/economic form of government that allows you to sleep with whoever you want, sell your body, enjoy any drug that is out there, etc...

Or certainly you can enjoy all the money you can make, no government intervention whatsoever, unless of course you want to make money selling your body, pandering drugs, starting a church that doesn't conform to state rules...

Those don't exist in those extremes Shag - but they do exist in the lesser forms of each of those examples...

Well, Denmark, a bit - but it isn't totally socialistic...

Or, you can look at it in the form of health care - the personal freedom not to worry about health care, at the cost of a larger government. (simply stated - there are a lot of layers in this one - but it is a surface way of looking at the issue)...
 
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Cal, so how do you place those who don’t fall into some of those nicely stated ‘this or that’ statements you have here…

A liar or confused.

There are plenty of people who state they are for less government, but would like to infringe on personal rights.
I covered that point.

You can be in a socialist economic state and have a ton of personal freedoms, and you can be in a capitalistic society and have your personal rights stripped away.
Actually, no you can't.
But more importantly, this is about more than just the economic system.

Again, are you just seeking to confuse things.
I addressed all the points you made, just more clearly.

Oh, it didn't work for the elitist Republicans ba$tard$- they still didn't get invited to the good parties...;)
I know... they sold their souls for nothing.

So Fox, which side are you on.
Tyranny or liberty?
more government or less.
 
Again, are you just seeking to confuse things.
I addressed all the points you made, just more clearly.

OK, Cal - just cut and paste the part where you addressed this point...

Or do you think that those who tout less government are serious when it really comes to ‘less government’ or does it mean ‘government that is less where I want it.’ Don’t step on my business, don’t take my money, don’t take my guns. But, where they want government – don’t let gays be married, don’t let there be abortion, don’t legalize marijuana, put God into government, they are quite willing to let government take up those causes.

So Fox, which side are you on.
Tyranny or liberty?
more government or less.

Liberty (freedom), with enough government to protect it.

And you forgot Cal -
More personal liberty or less.

You apparently saw a difference between 'liberty' and 'personal liberty' or maybe it should have been 'tyranny or freedom' - 'more personal liberty or less'.

So, Cal - more personal liberty or less?
 
Shag - why can't you have a socialist/economic form of government that allows you to sleep with whoever you want, sell your body, enjoy any drug that is out there, etc...

Do you understand the difference between Natural Law and Positivism? Do you know how property rights are effected under socialism, the implications of that for all rights and how that ties in with Natural Law and Positivism?
 

Or do you think that those who tout less government are serious when it really comes to ‘less government’ or does it mean ‘government that is less where I want it.’ Don’t step on my business, don’t take my money, don’t take my guns. But, where they want government – don’t let gays be married, don’t let there be abortion, don’t legalize marijuana, put God into government, they are quite willing to let government take up those causes.
And I said...

A cultural traditionalist, who is labeled a conservative, may embrace the same kind of government intervention and abuse of power that the fringe Democrats embrace- just for different ends.
They really aren't all that different.

And some kind of libertarian pot head might reject the expansion of federal powers into his life and align himself with a "conservative" that simply believes in federalism and the restoration of the constitution.

There are people who say they want less government, but don't mean it or understand it on both sides of the debate. There are people who want the federal government to enforce good behavior on the right, and there are generations of fools on the left who continue to confuse liberty and freedom with nothing more than just sexual independence, yet think that I shouldn't own a gun, I shouldn't be allowed to smoke in my home, and I shouldn't be allowed to ride my motorcycle without a helmet.

Liberty (freedom), with enough government to protect it.
Protect the freedom from who, specifically?

So, Cal - more personal liberty or less?
Regarding the federal government, as a matter of principle, you always chose more. More personal matters can be decided at the state and local level so long as they don't violate the constitutional rights that we were endowed upon us by the creator and guaranteed by the constitution.

But it's cute how your trying to play word games and confuse things.

Now it's back to you-
tyranny or liberty..
more federal government or less..

If you want to build a hippy commune, do it in your own town. You don't have to do that experiment on a national level, we should have 50 little experiments in democratic and representational government.
 
Do you understand the difference between Natural Law and Positivism? Do you know how property rights are effected under socialism, the implications of that for all rights and how that ties in with Natural Law and Positivism?

Positivism - if the group that was selected by the people in a set, valid form, follows rules set by the people and enact a law, the law is valid no matter what it says. In the case of the US, since the legislature is elected as per the constitution, it can enact laws, and the law will be enforced, even if it might go against the consitution.

Natural law believes that our rights come from our human state. Liberty comes from our humanity, not from an outside source such as the government.

Natural law follows a standard that any law created by a legislative body will always defer to natural law.

So, since Jefferson allowed for the pursuit of happiness (which includes ownership of property) in his list of 'natural law' in the Declaration of Independence, how to explain the personal property that was in effect at that point? Obviously our vision of personal property has changed over the years - owning a slave was a 'pursuit of happiness,' slaves were personal property. Today however, we view ownership of slaves as something that is completely antithesis of our current definition of natural law.

How do you explain the difference, is it an evolution? A better understanding of what natural law is? Couldn't we still be evolving, or perhaps we could still be learning what natural law is... how does it apply, what really is personal property?

Is the idea of public lands, a socialist concept, against natural law? Or does natural law weigh that things like the Grand Canyon should be protected from development, and protected for all people, now and in the future? So, can the personal right of property be 'trumped' and still fall within natural law?
 
There are people who say they want less government, but don't mean it or understand it on both sides of the debate. There are people who want the federal government to enforce good behavior on the right, and there are generations of fools on the left who continue to confuse liberty and freedom with nothing more than just sexual independence, yet think that I shouldn't own a gun, I shouldn't be allowed to smoke in my home, and I shouldn't be allowed to ride my motorcycle without a helmet.

Why are those on the 'right' just 'people', however Cal, you are quick to label those on the 'left' as 'fools'. They are either both fools or both people - you are quick to label Cal - you are the one who degrades the left instantly. In my example I didn't label those people who define liberty in their own image, as 'fools' why do you feel that need?

So, you do see there are those who want less government, along with less personal liberties. Wouldn't you label those people as fools too?
Protect the freedom from who, specifically?
Usually you think of other governments - our enemies in the world.

Regarding the federal government, as a matter of principle, you always chose more. More personal matters can be decided at the state and local level so long as they don't violate the constitutional rights that we were endowed upon us by the creator and guaranteed by the constitution.

So, why would the states look to curtail personal liberties? Wouldn't they all be protected in the constitution and be struck down by the supreme court. And wouldn't all the states then be pretty much the same when it came to personal liberty if they went by the rights outlined in the constitution?

Now it's back to you-
tyranny or liberty..
more federal government or less..

And I answered - Freedom, and enough government to protect it. Certainly less government than we have now in many areas.

If you want to build a hippy commune, do it in your own town. You don't have to do that experiment on a national level, we should have 50 little experiments in democratic and representational government.

And if you want to build a fascist state do it in your own town? What do you mean by that last paragraph. A hippy commune would be allowed under the constitution? A fascist state wouldn't be... why would a commune? If a commune would pass constitutional muster, wouldn't socialism? I really don't understand the point of that last paragraph.
 
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Why are those on the 'right' just 'people', however Cal, you are quick to label those on the 'left' as 'fools'.
Because I gave a specific example of a fool that is usually expressed on the political left- one who continually confuses sexual independence and liberty. Are you suggesting that such confusion isn't foolish or would you like to waste my time requesting that I list all forms of foolishness in the world?

Usually you think of other governments - our enemies in the world.
Usually, that's what you'd think. And it would fall into the responsibility of the federal government to protect the nation from external threats like that.

But what did YOU mean?
You said we need enough government to protect our freedom.
I think that government poses the greatest threat to our freedom- and that threat grows exponentially with the size and power of the federal government.

So, why would the states look to curtail personal liberties?
I didn't say that they would.

And wouldn't all the states then be pretty much the same when it came to personal liberty if they went by the rights outlined in the constitution?
Are you asking me what I'd want or what should be/is legal?
At the local level, state/local government can make decisions and restrictions that are not permitted at the federal level. So, if the question is, would every state and community act and govern exactly like the others, the answer would be no. You'd have the ability to vote (locally) in the political system or simply vote with your feet and move somewhere else.

And I answered - Freedom, and enough government to protect it. Certainly less government than we have now in many areas.
You do realize this statement is inconsistent with virtually everything you've said up until this point.

You supported nationalizing the auto industry. You supported "socialism to save capitalism." You support the bank bail outs. You supported the so-called stimulus. And you supported the omnibus budget passed earlier this year. And, you continue to defend Obama-Care while still trying to say with a straight face that you oppose single payer systems. You still even defend the CASH FOR CLUNKERS program!!

To the best of my memory, you have supported and defended every expansion in the size and power of the federal government since introducing yourself here.

So, I must ask, when did this change of heart come about?
Are we now allies in our effort to roll back the size and scope of the federal government?
Are you going to use your insider associations to try to end this suicidal expansion of spending that we're seeing right now?

What do you mean by that last paragraph. A hippy commune would be allowed under the constitution?
Noting that I didn't say anything about having a fascist state... I'm not sure what you're talking about or asking now.

If you want to experiment with economic or social programs, do them on the local level. They shouldn't be applied nationally. The federal government isn't supposed to have the authority to do such things, but it's acceptable for LOCAL governments to do so.

If a town in Vermont, for example, wants to socialize medicine, using only local money, I don't know of a constitutional argument that says they can't do that. But that's a local issue. You aren't supposed to have a fascist town, that's unconstitutional. It's curious that you pulled that out of the air.
 
Positivism - if the group that was selected by the people in a set, valid form, follows rules set by the people and enact a law, the law is valid no matter what it says. In the case of the US, since the legislature is elected as per the constitution, it can enact laws, and the law will be enforced, even if it might go against the consitution.

Natural law believes that our rights come from our human state. Liberty comes from our humanity, not from an outside source such as the government.

Natural law follows a standard that any law created by a legislative body will always defer to natural law.

Repeating textbook definitions doesn't mean that you understand them. You "definition" of Natural Law is wrong in the context of this country and how it was founded. And you clearly don't understand the intellectual history of the ideas and how they came about.

Also, slavery was viewed as inconsistent with the principles spelled out in the Declaration from day one but was allowed as a concession to the southern states; for politically pragmatic reasons only. If they would have abolished slavery in the Constitution when it was written, the south would not have ratified it and we would not have the "United States" today. To inject slavery into this only confuses the issue.

You clearly don't grasp what I am saying. If you were actually interested in and honest discussion and in legitimately understanding what I am saying, I would be happy to spell that out. However, your actions on this forum are pretty consistent and you injection of slavery into this discussion shows you are more interested in legitimizing your dismissal of what I have to say before you even understand what I am saying.

You stay classy...
 
I think that government poses the greatest threat to our freedom- and that threat grows exponentially with the size and power of the federal government.

That is a view that the founders of this nation shared and built the federal government around. They understood that governments, by their very nature, work to become more powerful and take away liberties; they become more and more corrupt. That is the whole reason for the Bill of Rights, for Federalism, for all the check-and-balances in the Constitution, for the separation of powers, etc., etc. All things that the left actively works to circumvent...
 
Repeating textbook definitions doesn't mean that you understand them. You "definition" of Natural Law is wrong in the context of this country and how it was founded. And you clearly don't understand the intellectual history of the ideas and how they came about.
<snippy>
You stay classy...

Heck, shag, I certainly know that the founding fathers used Positivism when they allowed slavery. And I certainly understand natural law just as well as your rather narrow applications of it allows.

Also, slavery was viewed as inconsistent with the principles spelled out in the Declaration from day one but was allowed as a concession to the southern states; for politically pragmatic reasons only. If they would have abolished slavery in the Constitution when it was written, the south would not have ratified it and we would not have the "United States" today. To inject slavery into this only confuses the issue.

So, we allowed slavery because it was good for the union. Perhaps we have allowed privatized health care for the good of the union. We changed what we viewed as 'property' as the union became strong enough to handle it. We changed that people could not be property. The founding fathers knew that certain ideals were going to be sacrificed to the alter of the 'union' for a period of time - correct?

So, when did health become property? And should it remain property? We 're-categorized' slaves from property to liberty. The founding fathers, according to you, were fine with this chain of events. Should we 're-categorize' health from property to life or perhaps liberty as time moves...

I discussed this recently with group where I am pretty much the token liberal. This was the stand I presented, I used it as a 'devil's advocate' point, but it was discovered to have some validity. How we view property has changed over time. The founding fathers knew that it would. In fact they hoped that it would in terms of slavery. Is health care something that over time should quit being looked at as property, and defined under a different 'category'?
 
Because I gave a specific example of a fool that is usually expressed on the political left- one who continually confuses sexual independence and liberty. Are you suggesting that such confusion isn't foolish or would you like to waste my time requesting that I list all forms of foolishness in the world?

So, if I give an example of a fool on the right that wants to create government enforced standards of morality – that would be OK? The people in the first part of your earlier paragraph “the right” (otherwise known as those housewives with cardboard signs ;) ) could certainly be ‘foolish’. Why single out the left who might not want government enforced morality invading their homes. You don’t want the government telling you can’t smoke in your home – I could label that request, and you foolish – under your logic.

I think that government poses the greatest threat to our freedom- and that threat grows exponentially with the size and power of the federal government.

I think that the government possess a great threat to our freedom, but it also creates the greatest hope for our freedom. I do believe there is also an enemy from within that the government can protect us from. We can end up in a corporate theocracy if we continued down the Reagan/Bush/Bush path. That is an enemy from within.

You say that at a local level we can create restrictions regarding personal liberty. But, if personal liberty is defined in the constitution why would there be any lee-way? Interpretation of the constitution? But we aren’t allowed that. I can understand taxes being different, how the public interacts with government being different, school systems being different, however, those aren’t ‘rights.’ Basic ‘rights’ – wouldn’t those be the same throughout the land? Your local government could state they need your house to stage an event. That is against the constitution. Your local government could decide that they are allowed to constantly wiretap all the phones in a certain area. That is unconstitutional. You can move to avoid taxes, get to a different school system, but moving to an area where you feel safe because all the phones are wiretapped – isn’t going to fly…
You supported nationalizing the auto industry. You supported "socialism to save capitalism." You support the bank bail outs. You supported the so-called stimulus. And you supported the omnibus budget passed earlier this year. And, you continue to defend Obama-Care while still trying to say with a straight face that you oppose single payer systems. You still even defend the CASH FOR CLUNKERS program!!

I wasn’t for nationalizing the auto industry… I was for the government stepping in and saving jobs. The government will not stay in the auto industry – they will be out within a couple of years. It is a stop-gap and not a nationalization of an industry. If it were, Ford would be also government owned, and there would be no other ownership interest in Chrysler or GM outside of the government.

I did support bank bailouts – to prevent a depression. Once again – the government hasn’t nationalized the banking industry, nor is it about to. The government regulates the industry, it does not own it. And I still support the stimulus. We have seen the market grow, housing stabilize, consumer confidence rise, and unemployment hasn’t hit Reagan levels (although it might – I still think we won’t see recovery in the employment numbers until mid 2010 – which I stated before on this board). Is it stimulus money- I am not sure. But you can’t take it out of the ‘mix’ now. Without it was the market going to continue its downward spiral-it could have. The market could still crash again… These are things that can’t be judged in a year’s time or even 5 year’s time. History judges those things. The government stepping in to save GM could be seen as a great industry saving move, or it could be seen as another step in the demise of the American auto industry…

Unlike you Cal, I am not of the Wall Street mentality. I don’t need to see profits in 6 months – I am in it for the long haul. The government has the luxury to be in it for the long haul.

And yes, I will continue to defend Cash for Clunkers. Once again – did it hurt the coming months car sales – of course – that would be silly to think it wouldn’t. However, over the long haul, the effects of pumping 3 billion dollars into the economy and directly into the hands of consumers – what will be the effect of that event in a year from now. It is a targeted type of tax cut. Tax cuts get republican approval (even if it is only those who make 6 figures or more that get it, another form of targeting tax cuts). Perhaps the fact that there are thousand and thousands of fewer Exploders on the road could reduce highway fatalities, something that doesn’t show up on the bottom line. You are big on unintended consequences Cal – that could be one.

I am for parts of Obama Care – guess what - so is most of the right. I have explained this before – there are good parts and bad parts – I am not going over this again here. I am for allowing private industry to continue to be in control of our health care needs, if they can get the job done. I think some restrictions should be removed – such as allowing plans to be sold across state lines, so long as the consumer is protected with common sense ‘truth in packaging’ laws. I think that consumers should be allowed to form their own groups to purchase insurance at a reduced ‘group’ rate. Removing previous condition restrictions should be considered. And I think that individuals should have access to the same plan that government employees have.

My insider associations are now 10 years old Cal – the power they wield is quite different.

If a town in Vermont, for example, wants to socialize medicine, using only local money, I don't know of a constitutional argument that says they can't do that. But that's a local issue. You aren't supposed to have a fascist town, that's unconstitutional. It's curious that you pulled that out of the air.

So, if a town wanted to ‘nationalize’ the liquor stores – that would be OK? Creating socialized medicine is basically creating ‘nationalized’ medicine. When you socialize something the government takes ownership and gives everyone an equal share. What is the difference? Is that an experiment that the constitution would allow? I don’t think so.

I am against nationalizing private business – that is another reason why I would not be for socialized health care. Government run hospitals don't appeal to me, I have been to plenty of military hospitals -
 
Heck, shag, I certainly know that the founding fathers used Positivism when they allowed slavery.

Positivism, as a concept, wasn't even around when the founding fathers were alive. You clearly do NOT know what you are talking about but are trying to sound like you do so you can simply confuse the issue...

Stop insulting the intellect of me and everyone else here by habitually lying and spreading disinformation...
 
Positivism, as a concept, wasn't even around when the founding fathers were alive. You clearly do NOT know what you are talking about but are trying to sound like you do so you can simply confuse the issue...

Stop insulting the intellect of me and everyone else here by habitually lying and spreading disinformation...

I am not sure about you shag - but I know that Cal really like Reason Magazine... you should read a little article there about positivism and the 'black' issue...

Dred Scott's Revenge

an excerpt from that really good article...

Jefferson's immortal words in the Declaration attached the new nation's soul to what lawyers and judges call the natural law. But when he bought and sold slaves, Jefferson rejected the natural law for himself, in favor of what lawyers and judges call positivism.

Just because it wasn't labeled 'positivism' at the time doesn't mean it didn't exist.

That is a very narrow viewpoint. Just because we haven't given something a name it doesn't exist yet? Allowing women the right to vote has been an issue throughout history, but just because it wasn't called a suffragist movement doesn't mean that type of movement didn't exist before the later part of the 1800s. Women were allowed to vote in many cultures before the idea came to the forefront of American politics as the Suffragette Movement.
 
I am not sure about you shag - but I know that Cal really like Reason Magazine... you should read a little article there about positivism and the 'black' issue...

Dred Scott's Revenge

an excerpt from that really good article...

Jefferson's immortal words in the Declaration attached the new nation's soul to what lawyers and judges call the natural law. But when he bought and sold slaves, Jefferson rejected the natural law for himself, in favor of what lawyers and judges call positivism.

Just because it wasn't labeled 'positivism' at the time doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Funny you should mention an article written by Andrew Napolitano, because he was the one who first brought positivism to my attention in his book Constitutional Chaos.

What he is pointing out in the article you cite is what judges and lawyers today refer to as positivism. Positivism was not an idea, in any form, at the time of the founding. However, any rejection of natural rights is, by default, positivism as it is understood today. Jefferson's actions were not rooted in his philosophy or that of the founding of this nation (which was what I was originally referring to). They were simply inconsistent with his philosophy and, by default, would effectively be what would be considered positivism today. But positivism, as an idea, DID NOT EXIST when the Framers were alive.

Since I was clearly originally referring to the founding principles of this nation when I originally brought this subject up, your action are clearly aimed at confusing the issue and reframing the debate so you can distort and dismiss my point without even understanding it.

That is a very narrow viewpoint.

Is the whole "narrow viewpoint" thing the new false stereotype you are trying to inject (you have repeated it enough in this thread)? Another attempt at a Große Lüge. SIEG HEIL! ;)
 
So, if I give an example of a fool on the right that wants to create government enforced standards of morality – that would be OK?
You can do as you wish, if it's honest and truthful, it shouldn't offend anyone.

You don’t want the government telling you can’t smoke in your home – I could label that request, and you foolish – under your logic.
If a person was only focused on a single issue and thought it alone defined freedom, that might be appropriate. For example, if I spend my life arguing that it's my body, my choice if I chose to smoke, and that the government needs to keep their hands off of my body... it'd be foolish for me to think I was free when that same government was regulating other elements of my behavior and stealing nearly half of my life's work.

We can end up in a corporate theocracy if we continued down the Reagan/Bush/Bush path. That is an enemy from within.
Can you elaborate on this point.

You say that at a local level we can create restrictions regarding personal liberty
I didn't say that.
I've never said.
I said specifically that the state and local governments have to honor the bill of rights.

Are you even reading what I said, or just responding?
Or worse yet, deliberately misrepresenting it?

I was for the government stepping in ...I did support bank bailouts....I still support the stimulus.
And you supported the omnibus budget. And the cash for clunkers. And you defend the Obama/Democrat health programs.

Thanks for confirming your complete and total duplicity.
You say that you support LESS government in public, then go on to defend EVERY expansion of federal government that is advanced.


Unlike you Cal, I am not of the Wall Street mentality. I don’t need to see profits in 6 months – I am in it for the long haul. The government has the luxury to be in it for the long haul.
No, the government isn't supposed to be "in it" at all.
I'm not interested in a six month spike, however the spending and policies being advanced right now, those that I oppose both for practical reasons and on principle, have failed to perform as they were sold to the public.

What is the purpose of a stimulus? It was sold as a means of quickly injecting money and confidence into the market to decrease the severity and shorten the duration of this recession. It has failed to do that.

We are $1,400,000,000,000 in debt so far THIS YEAR.
The dollar's value is plummeting.
Other countries have stopped lending us money, and they are unhinged their currency from ours.
We are monetizing our debt!

And you pretend that this is sustainable?
That it's going to just turn around?
Maybe if we just print more money?

We aren't going to see a recovery any time soon. It's not economically possible.
Any "uptick" that you think you see are merely the result of the government FLOODING the economy with worthless paper money.
And things like the $4500 government program for cars. The $8,000 gift on homes. Yet despite this huge rush of money, the economy is still failing.
It's only getting worse. Yet despite the fact we CAN NOT AFFORD IT, you think we should spend MORE.

My insider associations are now 10 years old Cal – the power they wield is quite different.
No matter, you're not interested in limiting government as all- as you've just demonstrated. So, the question to you is, why do you lie about that?

So, if a town wanted to ‘nationalize’ the liquor stores – that would be OK? Creating socialized medicine is basically creating ‘nationalized’ medicine. When you socialize something the government takes ownership and gives everyone an equal share. What is the difference? Is that an experiment that the constitution would allow? I don’t think so.
How can a town "nationalize" anything?
And private property rights are stated in the constitution.
I don't know what point your trying to make, but it's absurd and doesn't appear to be related to anything that I was talking about. Just like your repeated interjection of fascism or that local government is exempt from honoring the bill of rights...
 
Funny you should mention an article written by Andrew Napolitano, because he was the one who first brought positivism to my attention in his book Constitutional Chaos.

Odd, that I would even know about such a thing - huh???? Never underestimate the enemy shag... ;) You shouldn't go down that elitist path...

What he is pointing out in the article you cite is what judges and lawyers today refer to as positivism. Positivism was not an idea, in any form, at the time of the founding. However, any rejection of natural rights is, by default, positivism as it is understood today. Jefferson's actions were not rooted in his philosophy or that of the founding of this nation (which was what I was originally referring to). They were simply inconsistent with his philosophy and, by default, would effectively be what would be considered positivism today. But positivism, as an idea, DID NOT EXIST when the Framers were alive.

Positivism existed - just because it didn't have a name yet shag, doesn't mean that what Jefferson did wasn't positivism, it was... A rose by any other name... ever get that concept shag?

Is the whole "narrow viewpoint" thing the new false stereotype you are trying to inject (you have repeated it enough in this thread)? Another attempt at a Große Lüge. SIEG HEIL! ;)

Just as your continued linking with me and Nazis shag - you started the stereotyping game in other threads - Nazi is your new 'dishonest'... you were the one that wanted to play in this playground shag... from early on. I tried to avoid it, but, if you want to sling dirt, so can I.
 
Odd, that I would even know about such a thing - huh????

It isn't too hard to google positivism and find some article talking about it that you can spin to your own ends...

Just as your continued linking with me and Nazis shag - you started the stereotyping game in other threads - Nazi is your new 'dishonest'... you were the one that wanted to play in this playground shag... from early on. I tried to avoid it, but, if you want to sling dirt, so can I.

Yeah, you tried to avoid it by initiating it through intentional and habitual mischaracterization, distortion, etc. :rolleyes:
 
It isn't too hard to google positivism and find some article talking about it that you can spin to your own ends...

Actually I read Reason occasionally - I sort of like Penn... I rarely agree with him, but he is an entertaining read. I saw Dred Scott in the toc this spring and read the article.

Yeah, you tried to avoid it by initiating it through intentional and habitual mischaracterization, distortion, etc. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Here you are distorting shag, as you often do - just because we didn't call it positivism in 1789 doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Don't get hung up on the word and look at the action... Once again, do you grasp 'A rose by any other name'? What matters is what something 'is'... not what it is 'called'.
 
Here you are distorting shag

I was commenting on your history on this forum.

just because we didn't call it positivism in 1789 doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Don't get hung up on the word and look at the action... Once again, do you grasp 'A rose by any other name'? What matters is what something 'is'... not what it is 'called'.

Do you grasp the fact that a concept cannot exist before it existed?

Positivism is not something that, "happens". It is not an action.

FYI: your snarky little condescension doesn't mask the fact that your intentionally misleading and trying to confuse the issue...
 
If a person was only focused on a single issue and thought it alone defined freedom, that might be appropriate. For example, if I spend my life arguing that it's my body, my choice if I chose to smoke, and that the government needs to keep their hands off of my body... it'd be foolish for me to think I was free when that same government was regulating other elements of my behavior and stealing nearly half of my life's work.

But, arguing that we should have less government in the name of ‘freedom’ and then looking to that same government to curtail rights in other areas is equally as foolish. Many people want less government only where it suits them. I think you need to look at the whole picture- just like you are doing Cal. Making the government ‘smaller’ is a single issue isn’t it – and does it alone define freedom?

Can you elaborate on this point.

I would love to talk about corporate theocracy and the threat from within – wanna do it on another thread – it is pretty complex…

I didn't say that.
I've never said.
I said specifically that the state and local governments have to honor the bill of rights.

This is what I said...(post 11)
And wouldn't all the states then be pretty much the same when it came to personal liberty if they went by the rights outlined in the constitution?
and this was your reply...(post 12)
Are you asking me what I'd want or what should be/is legal?
At the local level, state/local government can make decisions and restrictions that are not permitted at the federal level. So, if the question is, would every state and community act and govern exactly like the others, the answer would be no. You'd have the ability to vote (locally) in the political system or simply vote with your feet and move somewhere else.

I took that to the local government could make restrictions... Sorry if I misunderstood... But, your response could certainly be construed to be saying that local governments can make decisions and restrictions - it even says those exact words.

And you supported the omnibus budget. And the cash for clunkers. And you defend the Obama/Democrat health programs.
Oh, I didn't support the ominibus budget (you won't be able to find anything about that - I didn't support it)... I defend only sections of the health care plan - parts that in many cases that the Republicans also support.

I defend temporary spending measures. I don't want another program like SS or Medicare for health care - I am not supporting that type of legacy program. I think we should look seriously at other legacy programs, such as SS and figure ways to get the government out of them. Government needs to be flexible enough to temporarily add funds - but I think we shouldn't create department after department and program after program any longer. We need to look for way to combine departments and programs or remove some.

What is the purpose of a stimulus? It was sold as a means of quickly injecting money and confidence into the market to decrease the severity and shorten the duration of this recession. It has failed to do that.

Really - many economists are saying the recession is over... once again, we will probably find out in a year or two. It seemed like we were almost a year into the current recession before they said we were in a recession. What is causing the recession to end, and not bottom out into a depression - I am not sure, neither is anyone else. Better insight to why it is ending (and if it is) will come years from now, when the totality of events can be viewed from a better vantage point - the future.

We aren't going to see a recovery any time soon. It's not economically possible.
Any "uptick" that you think you see are merely the result of the government FLOODING the economy with worthless paper money.
And things like the $4500 government program for cars. The $8,000 gift on homes. Yet despite this huge rush of money, the economy is still failing.
It's only getting worse. Yet despite the fact we CAN NOT AFFORD IT, you think we should spend MORE.
I don't think this is sustainable - I don't think we need more stimulus money. I think we have given the automakers their chance, I am not for more government programs.

How much did Reagan/Bush give people - by reducing taxes? It is the same thing cal - it is the government giving people money, in targeted areas, it was a gift to people in certain income brackets.

No matter, you're not interested in limiting government as all- as you've just demonstrated. So, the question to you is, why do you lie about that?

Yes I am Cal - I worked hard to reduce government with welfare reform. However, I am probably doing more to reduce government right now than you are Cal. What are you doing other than bitching? How are you reducing the government's footprint?
How can a town "nationalize" anything?

So how can a town have socialized medicine if they don't 'nationalize' the health care facilities? You need to create state or community ownership if you want socialized medicine. So, hospitals, clinics, etc would have to become state or cooperative owned.

You were the one that brought up that a town in Vermont could create socialized health care - without creating state ownership of the facilities that can't happen.

If a town in Vermont, for example, wants to socialize medicine, using only local money, I don't know of a constitutional argument that says they can't do that. But that's a local issue. You aren't supposed to have a fascist town, that's unconstitutional. It's curious that you pulled that out of the air.

Socialistized health care is as unconstitutional as Fascism - but you seem to think that the town should be able to get around the constitution to create socialized health care - why should they stop there - why not a fascist form of local government as well. You have to remove private ownership to create a socialized system...
 

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