$25 billion Automaker Bailout

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

November 19, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
By MITT ROMNEY

Boston

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.
 
"First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers."

Great piece of work that looks good on paper but, There is a problem with his statement I posted above.
Reductions in pay, benefits and retirement cost have an insumountable obstacle in todays economy.
I speak from experience.
I am semi retired, and maintain a salary from my property management company.
If I had to live on just my retirement pay, I simply couldn't in todays economy.
The price of everything has risen, but my retirement pay has not moved up to stay in line with inflation.
Now Mr Romney says these cost incurred by the auto makers must be reduced in order for them to reorganize and become more competitive.
The only way that would work would be for prices to be rolled back to times when the expected reduction in these benefits would have been the going rate.
One can't expect a retiree collecting a pension, to take a cut in that pension when the cost of goods and services remain at the current rate.
It is just not feesable.
I do think the only viable solution is to file chapter eleven, and reorganize the auto industry.
Dump the unions, and drop production on all but a few models.
Companies offering twenty or thirty different models is just plain stupid.
Obviously if one person is buying one model of vehicle, they are passing on a different model.
They must decrease the amount of different models they offer.
Foolin around with retirement pensions will be catastrophic in todays economy.
Bob.
 
Toyota is successful for many reasons, the largest of which is that their structure in almost no way resembles the structure of GM. There should be no need to prop up GM or Ford. Stop subsidizing poor-quality cars, and force the auto makers to compete.
 
Add to the fact that when the big three came to congress yesterday to ask for the money they spent way too much money using the corporate jets...

They just don't get it - they are so far removed from reality.. they probably could stand a little 'reality check.' Give them the money - but, the people now have a say... How about everyone at the big 3 making what a line worker makes for a few years, and no options, and no golden parachutes... from the top down. Yes, the contracts need to be renegoiated, but be fair - it isn't just the line worker that causes this problem - everyone at the big 3 gets paid a lot...

The disparity between top and bottom in this companies is ludicrous.

These men don't get punished when their companies fail, they walk away with millions, and then walk right into another company and do exactly the same thing. Everyone talks about responsibility, how about some accountability when it comes to these guys?

And somehow could they design a car that someone might want to buy?
 
Add to the fact that when the big three came to congress yesterday to ask for the money they spent way too much money using the corporate jets...

They just don't get it - they are so far removed from reality.. they probably could stand a little 'reality check.' Give them the money - but, the people now have a say... How about everyone at the big 3 making what a line worker makes for a few years, and no options, and no golden parachutes... from the top down. Yes, the contracts need to be renegoiated, but be fair - it isn't just the line worker that causes this problem - everyone at the big 3 gets paid a lot...

The disparity between top and bottom in this companies is ludicrous.

These men don't get punished when their companies fail, they walk away with millions, and then walk right into another company and do exactly the same thing. Everyone talks about responsibility, how about some accountability when it comes to these guys?

And somehow could they design a car that someone might want to buy?
What's ludicrous is your populist attitude, and your naivete in using the phrase "the people now have a say." That is so funny, considering it would be Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who would be running the auto companies. Yeah, that's a good idea, considering they know SO MUCH ABOUT IT. :rolleyes: The comment Reid made about the corporate jet transport is so much grandstanding, as though Reid EVER rides coach anywhere he goes. /barf
 
Add to the fact that when the big three came to congress yesterday to ask for the money they spent way too much money using the corporate jets...
Seriously, that's class warfare nonsense.
Mismanagement has been a problem in that company, but executive pays isn't the cause of the $2k a car legacy costs that they face.

The last thing we need in this country is an American equivalent to the British Leyland corporation, a bunch of bitter communists who occasionally built a car with hammers when they could take some time off from striking.

You can't pay your top management the same as the line worker. In fact, the salary limits are extremely counter productive. It's simple economics. There are fewer people who can run a company like that than there are people who can bolt in seats. If you want to attract the best talent, you pay for it.

Additionally, the salary limits have a byproduct. Management expects compensation, so to work around the salary cap, stock options are offered. This ends up being an incentive for management to keep stock prices high in the short term with little interest in the long term value of the company.

And somehow could they design a car that someone might want to buy?
They do build some good cars. But ultimately the legacy means they have to cut quality inorder to meet the price point where Americans will buy the car. This is evident by the fact that European Fords are much better than the ones they sell here. Same goes for GM.

Chrysler stinks everywhere.....;)
 
The disparity between the high level executive and the line worker in the United States is appalling.

You mentioned Toyota Foss, their corporate executives don't even come close to what American executives make. Yet, they have managed to create successful companies on their meager salaries (however they do make a lot of money, just not obscene amounts of money).

Everyone is pointing fingers at the line worker - and as I said things need to be renegotiated, But not just there - take it all the way to the top. It is disgusting that these men destroy companies, and walk away with absolutely no recrimination, just a huge parachute, a pat on the back and a letter of recommendation...

If the CEOs of the top 3 were in Japan they would have done the honorable thing by now and would have committed hari kari
 
The disparity between the high level executive and the line worker in the United States is appalling.

You mentioned Toyota Foss, their corporate executives don't even come close to what American executives make. Yet, they have managed to create successful companies on their meager salaries (however they do make a lot of money, just not obscene amounts of money).

Everyone is pointing fingers at the line worker - and as I said things need to be renegotiated, But not just there - take it all the way to the top. It is disgusting that these men destroy companies, and walk away with absolutely no recrimination, just a huge parachute, a pat on the back and a letter of recommendation...

If the CEOs of the top 3 were in Japan they would have done the honorable thing by now and would have committed hari kari

I am not going to defend the excesses of the CEO's, but reducing their pay (and other compensations) would have no positive effect on being able to turn a profit and make a decent car (in fact, it would likely have a negative effect), so unless your aim is some vague sense of "fairness" it is absurd to harp on that.

As Calabrio pointed out, you need to to reduce the overhead cost, and the biggest one is the legacy cost at $2 grand per car (on average). That would be a start in the right direction. Reducing or removing unneccessary governmental regulations (EPA) on the car companies would be another step (CAFE standards). Promoting oil exploration and getting government out of the way of that would also help (look at how the oil bubble effected the car market this summer). And Finally, replace the upper management, because it is obvious that they are not competent and not worth what is being paid for them.

If you are not going to do those 4 things, then the bailout is exceedingly foolish because it would only delay the inevitable collapse of the big three and allow them to get more leverage on the economy so they impact it even more when they collapse.

So which is it; some vague and abstract sense of fairness, or making the company profitable? Which is the priority? And don't try to go down the middle of the road and say "both" as they work against each other...
 
Shag, I said that they need to build a better car – check out my previous post #30. and we need to renegotiate the contracts (also in that post). That is a given…

CAFÉ – somehow Toyota, Honda, heck even KIA exceeds the CAFÉ standards every year with no crying… Along with happily building cars here in the US without whining about EPA standards…

And I do think some abstract sense of fairness is in order. How can you ask line workers to take huge salary cuts without looking to the top as well?

“Oh, we are going to ask you to take a 30% decrease in pay, cut your benefits, lower your pension expectations, while we in the marble tower will continue to make astronomical amounts of money, fly about on our corporate jets while we beg for tax money, and get paid millions when we say goodbye and leave the company in shambles.

I think some form of fairness would allow the line workers some dignity, and some sense of pride in the product that they produce.

But, don’t you think there might be something to the overcompensation issue… Is anyone worth that sort of money? If anything base the bulk of their salaries (say everything except, oh, a meager living wage of say 2 million) on stock options that won’t be available for 5 years… give them that little carrot. And no parachutes – that is so antithesis to good corporate health it is ridiculous.

The most recent year I can find for compensation for the ‘real’ big 3 is 2006

TOYOTA: Toyota Motor, the No. 2 automaker in the world after General Motors, paid its 26 top executives, including Katsuaki Watanabe, president, a combined ¥940 million, or $8.27 million, in the latest financial year, compared with ¥938.1 million for 27 executives in the previous year.

So, all 26 of them only made $8.27 million…

FORD: Alan Mulally $39.1 Million – 4.75 TIMES as much as the top 26 executives for Toyota…

GM: Rick Wagoner 9.57 million – slightly over the entire top executive salaries for Toyota. However he took that ‘lower’ compensation package in 2006 because he had options that would increase his salary in 2007 to 15.7 million
 
I think some form of fairness would allow the line workers some dignity, and some sense of pride in the product that they produce.

But, don’t you think there might be something to the overcompensation issue… Is anyone worth that sort of money? If anything base the bulk of their salaries (say everything except, oh, a meager living wage of say 2 million) on stock options that won’t be available for 5 years… give them that little carrot. And no parachutes – that is so antithesis to good corporate health it is ridiculous.
What's ridiculous is your government-mandated salary cap. It's Marxist.

Yeah.

Get used to hearing that word every time you spout off about "fairness."

People are worth whatever the market will pay them. Period. Who the hell are you, or who the hell is Congress, very few members of which even know how to run a business but never hesitates to vote itself arbitrary pay increases regardless of performance, to tell executives how much salary they can earn.

The government is the looter. It doesn't earn, and it steals from those who do. Get that through your skull.
 
Everyone is pointing fingers at the line worker - and as I said things need to be renegotiated, But not just there - take it all the way to the top. It is disgusting that these men destroy companies, and walk away with absolutely no recrimination, just a huge parachute, a pat on the back and a letter of recommendation...
You missed my reply, I commented on most of this already. But I'll add something else.

STAY OUT OF THE MARKET PLACE. Every time liberals interfere with the markets and try to create underhanded ways to make things "more fair," they completely screw things up. The huge increase in the use of stock options is the result of bad tax policy. And the shift to stock options for pay leads executives to focus on short term, market gain, rather than long term stability and value.

If the CEOs of the top 3 were in Japan they would have done the honorable thing by now and would have committed hari kari
Easy now, comrade...
The top guy at Ford, Alan Mulally has only been there since the end of 2006. The problem wasn't him, it preceded him. He's actually been successful, all things considered.

Rick Wagoner of GM has been there for a while, but he's been very aggressive in his efforts to bring that mismanaged, bloated, health car provided that makes some cars, into the black.

And Robert Nardelli just took over the recently privatized Chrysler a year ago. He only makes $1.00 a year in salary.
 
As mentioned early, a guy bolting in the seats makes less than the CEO because less people can do the job of the CEO.

And in big business, some of these CEO are considered superstars. Some have a record of success and hiring them adds value to the company. That's why there are bidding wars.

Why don't we complain about how much a NFL player makes compared to the guy that mows the yard outside the stadium?
Oh wait, I'm sure fox will.......
 
Odd that Japan is extremely capitalistic and yet, for some reason Japanese corporations don't see the need to pay their executive obscene amounts of money. They aren't adversarial, they actually work together to help the 'country'. What a concept.

American corporate greed needs to be checked somehow. It is killing capitalism Foss - that is what is driving the socialist ideals starting to rise in this county. The leaders won't cause the revolution, the people will.

If anyone will be at fault in this country for capitalism failing it will be the 'captains of industry'. Their greed, their inability to actually run a company, their shortsightedness, their imperialist attitude has killed good old Amercian Capitalism. If things don't change you can write on the tombstone of American Capitalism "Here lies the best of America, brought down by the greed of the worst of America".

I am a capitalist to the core Foss, but I hate the overwhelming greed that has infected America.

When are you going to get it through your thick skull Foss, that unless we change we will head down the road to socialism. Read history - Russian specifically. Unless we change we are going to go faster and faster down the road when the workers will revolt against the plutocrat, capitalist, robber baron, corporate leaders in this country. You need inequality, dissent, disgust, and anger to fuel a revolution, and the US has one right around the corner unless things change, and fast.

Marxist crap indeed.

Oh, as far as that football player, Calabrio... he deserves his millions - he has to produce - if he doesn't guess what - the next place that acquires him will pay him far less. Unlike those CEOs who belong to some weird club where they just shuffle between jobs making more and more, while producing less and less.

Heck there are men who make a lot of money - for instance the CEO of McDonalds, Skinner, made 9 million last year - however MickeyD's profit was 645 million - I think that is very fair.

wow - i just reread this - I guess this comrade was feeling pretty frisky... I shouldn't, but I will just let it stand - at least it will make for interesting comment...
 
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Odd that Japan is extremely capitalistic and yet, for some reason Japanese corporations don't see the need to pay their executive obscene amounts of money. They aren't adversarial, they actually work together to help the 'country'. What a concept.
First of all, you're comparing vastly different cultures.
But you're also comparing different things.
The CEOs of America's largest companies are paid in salaries and then that is usually supplemented with stock options.

That shift to stock options is the result of tax policy, policy I believe was implemented to limit CEO salaries.

Everytime liberals get involved in the market to make things "more fair," they ultimately just make it worse.


American corporate greed needs to be checked somehow. It is killing capitalism Foss - that is what is driving the socialist ideals starting to rise in this county.
NO! All of the problems liberals like you keep attributing to capitalism are the byproducts of BAD GOVERNMENT POLICY being thrust upon industry. If you want to spend the time, we can even link the health care problems in this country to wage and salary freezes in the 1940s.

The leaders won't cause the revolution, the people will.
Brushing up on your propoganda, are you?

If anyone will be at fault in this country for capitalism failing it will be the 'captains of industry'.
No, it will be the socialist like yourself and the ones in government who trick people. Those who blame the failures of government on the individual.

I am a capitalist to the core Foss, but I hate the overwhelming greed that has infected America.
You are clearly either lying to us or yourself.

When are you going to get it through your thick skull Foss, that unless we change we will head down the road to socialism.
You are right. We need to get the government until control and out of our day to day lives. We need to greatly reduce their interference in the markets. And we need to teach some basic economics and civics in this country.



Oh, as far as that football player, Calabrio... he deserves his millions - he has to produce - if he doesn't guess what - the next place that acquires him will pay him far less. Unlike those CEOs who belong to some weird club where they just shuffle between jobs making more and more, while producing less and less.
So it's just a good old boys club?
No.

Heck there are men who make a lot of money - for instance the CEO of McDonalds, Skinner, made 9 million last year - however MickeyD's profit was 645 million - I think that is very fair.
Well, I guess we all companies should run their budgets by you first.

AGAIN- STOCK OPTIONS.
The fact that CEOs are paid their bonuses in stock option is the result of BAD TAX POLICY designed with the intention of limiting salaries.

I could be wrong on the details of this one, but if I remember right, they past some major tax changes during Clinton's first term, PRIOR to the Republican revolution. One of the changes meant that corporations couldn't write off the salary of the CEO over a certain amount. In order to get around that limitation, the companies started paying in bonuses and stock options into the company. This resulted in HUGELY inflated bonuses (though with the market under 8k now, don't expect to see such inflated numbers next year) and, I suspect, a big difference in the way these people ran the company. With the emphasis shifted to stock values, these guys ran things with a shorter term vision.

But, regardless... GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF BUSINESS.
Everytime they try to make it fair, there's a huge unintended consequence. Cleverly, liberals take these consequences (caused by government) and then blame it on free markets.

The business enviroment of the 21st century is different than in previous centuries. These companies do need to examine how they are doing things and determine what they need to do different. Perhaps the answer with the unions IS to do profit sharing or ownership.

Maybe the big three need to stop being publicly traded and kept private.

That's for them to figure out. There self-preservation will be infinitely more creative, effective, and better serving than anything a handful of capitalism hating liberals in D.C. can come up with.
 
I cant complain about people making $$$$$, after all we are Capitolists.but dont come running to me begging for money because you your cash cow is sick
 
The business environment of the 21st century is different than in previous centuries. These companies do need to examine how they are doing things and determine what they need to do different. Perhaps the answer with the unions IS to do profit sharing or ownership.

Ah, Calabrio, I knew I saw a fellow comrade lurking under your gruff capitalist exterior... ;)

What I am saying is that capitalism is decaying from within, as it seems to do. And I think we have let it go so long that it isn't going to heal itself. Let it follow it's current path and I believe we could be going the route of people's revolution (extreme case scenario, but certainly plausible).

The people voted in a man that actually said 'spread the wealth'. And I believe according to your zogby poll 81% of the people who voted for Obama knew he wanted to redistribute the wealth... it wasn't a secret. They are comfortable now with that statement - how much longer before they take action?

I want to save capitalism - and it might take some temporary socialistic policies to do that (which is what Obama will do). As you said, the business environment is changing, and 'temporary' regarding government policy is a rather iffy statement. But, can capitalism save itself at this point? I think the core is too rotten to be able to support the structure any longer.

Foss, I think you said you just bought a HK MP5 variant? I know you think you are going to protect yourself from the government, but what if you have to protect yourself from your neighbor?

You were looking at Alaska - heck it might be time to head to the house in Oslo, they are pretty darn socialistic, and I might need to acclimate myself;)

And something I think you would like - I think almost everyone has a gun...
 
Ah, Calabrio, I knew I saw a fellow comrade lurking under your gruff capitalist exterior... ;)
I said no such thing.

What I am saying is that capitalism is decaying from within, as it seems to do.
You're really such a grossly dishonest person, it astounds me. You constantly speak out of both sides of your both. You're a propagandist, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

You've just said in this statement that the nature of capitalism is that it decays from within.
I want to save capitalism -
No you don't.
You want to say that. You know that you must say that otherwise people will dismiss you and what you're saying.

They are comfortable now with that statement - how much longer before they take action?
I don't know, comrade, you tell me.
How soon can you have the re-education plants run by Bill Ayers ready to go?

I want to save capitalism - and it might take some temporary socialistic policies to do that (which is what Obama will do).
So, to prevent socialism, we need to implement socialism to save capitalism? You're twisted. You're a liar. You've embraced a ideology that has dishonesty at it's foundation.

Communists are liars. You are a communist.
Communism only works if you trick the people into doing it. You may have been lied to, you may be convinced that you're dishonesty is "for their own good," but you're wrong.

As you said, the business environment is changing
Business is ALWAYS changing, it's an dynamic environment. That's another reason why everything fails when heavy handed bureaucrats attempt to control it through regulation and government ownership.

But, can capitalism save itself at this point? I think the core is too rotten to be able to support the structure any longer.
Here's an idea.
Let's try capitalism first, get your damn government out of the way, and let the American people exercise their industriousness, ingenuity, and creativity.

Frankly, you disgust me.
And we both know that people like you don't have the nerve to have a "revolution" anymore. They're much too cowardly to actually stand out front and state what you believe and argue it's value. No, you'll continue to do what you're doing- deceive. You'll brainwash kids. You'll shape the culture subversively through the media. And then you'll apply this creeping socialism through the government, little by little. Everyday the sleeping public wakes up to just a little bit more of it.

Foss, I think you said you just bought a HK MP5 variant? I know you think you are going to protect yourself from the government, but what if you have to protect yourself from your neighbor?
Liberals don't have guns in this country. And you've effectively feminized enough of your base that I'm not terribly concerned.

Additional point:
Jefferson said that if all the American people know all of the facts they will never make a mistake. This is why it was so critical for the media to with hold information in the last election cycle. This is why Foxpaws engages in constant double speak and propaganda. People who share her world view don't prevail with an informed American populace. You can manipulate them, you can trick them, and they're continuing to brianwash them and dumb them down in the schools- but if they know all the facts, they'll reject her and her ideas outright.
 
Glad to see you are entertained mespock... we aim to serve :)

Well, back to the name calling...

I said no such thing.
You said that you thought it might be time for the American worker to have ownership (in this case automotive). Isn’t that socialistic, comrade?

You're really such a grossly dishonest person, it astounds me. You constantly speak out of both sides of your both. You're a propagandist, and I mean that in the worst possible way. You've just said in this statement that the nature of capitalism is that it decays from within.

Ah, more things I get to put into my little pile (however constantly growing) of Calabrio’s personal insults.

Remember – I won’t play this game…

Yes, capitalism is decaying – what makes you think it isn’t? And if it continues to decay – what are you left with? Socialism, or worse, communism. And why wouldn’t I want to save capitalism? I have a lot at stake – maybe more than you Calabrio. I don’t know your current financial situation, but I do know mine – and I would rather not see all my wealth shared…

So, to prevent socialism, we need to implement socialism to save capitalism? You're twisted. You're a liar. You've embraced a ideology that has dishonesty at it's foundation.

We have been living with socialist government policies for over a century – Many of them implemented to yes, save capitalism. Have they worked? Well, during the first half of the 20th century, when the largest countries in the world fell to communism, we survived. Will we survive this? I don’t know. I think our chances are pretty slim if we step back and allow capitalism take its course. We will disagree on this – but, I don’t think you will have any choice. Move to a country that is highly capitalist then, if you can find one. I think we are still it. A couple of others - but, you probably won't qualify for Japanese citizenship...

Communists are liars. You are a communist.

I am not – you are the biggest, rudest, most arrogant… drat I can go no further because I swore to myself.

The government has already given my money to private industry with the bank bailout, with more on the horizon. I want accountability, I want a say, I want to be able to say when all this is done – good job, now, give me my money back. I am as selfish as it comes – hummmm where does this put me on the socialist scale – pretty darn low.

Business is ALWAYS changing, it's an dynamic environment. That's another reason why everything fails when heavy handed bureaucrats attempt to control it through regulation and government ownership.

But, we don’t have a choice right now – Bush has already moved us into government ownership which sucks. Now, we have to figure out a way to get beyond this. Stepping back isn’t an option - $2,500 of my money is in the bank bailout – I hate that – but guess what – that’s what we are dealing with. I want my money back – and unless this ship is able to right itself, which it isn’t going to be able to do by itself, more of my money will be used to shore it up.

With my money in there I don’t want these company’s executives just running around with their collective heads up their collective a$$e$. You know what their investment is – exactly the same as mine – that $2,500. They will strip the company for all they can if they are allowed. Because heck, why not, their investment is tiny. If they can pull millions out of the company while only gambling $2,500, you don’t think they will?

Let's try capitalism first, get your damn government out of the way, and let the American people exercise their industriousness, ingenuity, and creativity.

And how long have we tried this weird form of capitalism that Bush has morphed? It ain’t working – and it won’t be able to drag itself out of this pit. It is too weak, too damaged, and is in the process of dying unless something is done. Capitalism isn’t a real stable form of economic policy. We have done it for about 250 years – that is damn good. I would like it to continue, but, if history holds out, it doesn’t have much of a chance.

Frankly, you disgust me.

Thank you once again –

Liberals don't have guns in this country. And you've effectively feminized enough of your base that I'm not terribly concerned.

Wanna bet? I’ll put my liberal, bleeding heart, feminized guns up against yours any day Calabrio (but not Foss’s ;) )

You can manipulate them, you can trick them, and they're continuing to brianwash them and dumb them down in the schools- but if they know all the facts, they'll reject her and her ideas outright.

Are you really worried about me spreading propaganda to the maybe 25 people who read this – on a site that is based on the ownership of American luxury cars… duh… And guess what? I own an American luxury car – I want to keep my American luxury car, I would love to get another American luxury car (I can’t wait to see the new CTS-V coupe ). Boy, doesn’t that sound communist?

Why are you so afraid of me Calabrio?:)
 
I am not afraid of you, I just want people like you to stop lurking in the shadows. When exposed, your ideology doesn't work.

I'm not going to debate of defend the failures associated with the Bush administration. The bank bailout is another example of the destructive and painful unintended consequences of BAD liberal policy designed to make life more "fair."

You made a point earlier, the socialism-lite, the market interference, that we've been dealing with since the beginning of this century outlasted the Soviet empire. Yet you then speak out the other side of your mouth and say the problems we are experiencing now are the result of capitalism? What an outrageous lie.

I can't call you stupid or ignorant, that's why I have no other choice but to identify you as dishonest. You are advocating a creeping form of socialism, yet trying to present yourself as a true capitalist. You're not. What you write demonstrates this.

I'm not "afraid" of you- I'm calling you out of the shadows for what you are.

Did you read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky, Fox? How about Antonio Gramsci? Believe in it? Did you embrace it? Try to be honest when you answer that.
 
And why wouldn’t I want to save capitalism? I have a lot at stake – maybe more than you Calabrio. I don’t know your current financial situation, but I do know mine – and I would rather not see all my wealth shared…
Well, you voted for Obama. That's the biggest red flag that I see. :rolleyes:
 
Well, you voted for Obama. That's the biggest red flag that I see. :rolleyes:

Notice her precise wording....
"and I would rather not see all my wealth shared"

So, she doesn't mind some or most of her wealth being shared.
And she certainly doesn't mind someone else's wealth being shared either.

..you can trust her....
 
Well, hopefully everyone has gathered around - beer and pizza are in order I believe - or at least a big bowl of popcorn...

Well, since I have already been 'specifically' labeled dishonest by you Calabrio, why do you ask honesty from me now? Obviously whatever I say won’t be honest. :p

But, yes, I have read Rules for Radicals (in my early 20s) – have you? I thought of Thomas Paine when I read Alinsky, although Alinsky’s prose isn’t as clear, or stirring as Paine’s. And certainly not anywhere near as what I believe as ‘correct’ as Paine’s ideas. I actually thought Rules for Radicals to be a weak work, dependant on the sensationalism of the 60s and 70s anti-war revolution to create an odd sense of generalities, with few specifics. The work seemed preachy, and not ‘action-y’. Actually his earlier work – Reveille for Radicals is a better work – more dynamic with a call to action. The Clintons were certainly advocates of Alinsky, especially Hillary – I am quite surprised you aren’t screaming out ‘traitor’ when it comes to her and her close association with Alinsky.

I found in fact reading Alinsky very similar to reading Ayn Rand (now, I know they are on way opposite sides). Absolutes appeal to youth. Both of them are ‘absolutes’, and therefore flawed. I actually read them fairly close together and was far more drawn to Rand than Alinsky. Alinksy’s methods certainly could work – undermining the education of youth, instilling ideals within the school system and then systematically reinforcing them through community organizations, and the government as a whole. Very effective. If you have absolute control to begin with. You need a socialistic society in his case to achieve what basically is a socialistic society. In practical terms, it doesn’t work, unless you are socialist already.

His ideals basically reinforce a concept, not nurture a fledgling concept and then grow it. Too much has to be in place for his roadmap to get you to the place he wants you to arrive. Like, the roads. The education, employment, community and government systems all have to be already in place and working together to create the basic reinforcement principles, and it just doesn’t work well within a democratic society. The roads change too often, the intersections move constantly, and there isn’t enough long term consistency within the halls of power to make his concepts work. Maybe if we elected all officials to be in power for a generation, which is about how long Alinsky’s methods take to work, it might… but even then, you would be looking at local, state, and federal levels to all be exactly the same. Iffy at best. And within our framework in America – unachievable.

Short term revolution works far better than long term insidious treachery in today's society. There just isn't enough time for Alinsky's methods to work, things change far too quickly.

I don’t embrace his ideals, nor do I believe in them. I did look at them, and I thought them worth exploring, but in the end, they are flawed, and they undermine personal freedoms, unlike what Alinsky professes to do, which is expand personal freedoms. There is a dirty underbelly within his work – where power just morphs not into power of the people, but power of the powerful. The ones who infect the system are left with the spoils of the system.

Paine is a better read along similar lines, with the end results being expansion of personal freedoms.

And I couldn’t read Antonio Gramsci, I tried – but, it was way to fuzzy for me… have you Calabrio? I applaud your being able to get through all that flowery Italian philosophy if you did…

So, she doesn't mind some or most of her wealth being shared.

If nothing, I am pragmatic. My wealth has been shared for a long time. I pay taxes, my wealth gets redistributed. I get some value for my dollar – a great military, mostly decent roads, a could be improved upon education system, police, infrastructure, museums, parks, a flawed pension system. And now I own some of the banking system, whether I want to or not. So do you Calabrio. Your wealth is distributed. Call it whatever you want, but income taxes are just that. I am not very pleased with the fact that more of my wealth is scheduled to be redistributed, and I certainly don’t want to see all my wealth being shared. But, because my tax guy is only so good, every year some of my wealth is redistributed, in spite of his efforts ;)

You made a point earlier, the socialism-lite, the market interference, that we've been dealing with since the beginning of this century outlasted the Soviet empire. Yet you then speak out the other side of your mouth and say the problems we are experiencing now are the result of capitalism? What an outrageous lie.
The problems we are encountering now are because of an eroding of capitalism - it has happened before - in the late 1800 early 1900, with the robber barons. Huge amounts of wealth distributed only at the top 1/10 of 1 percent of the population. It was corrected, just like it is getting corrected now. Capitalism works best within fairly narrow parameters. Huge differences on either end of the scale - too much wealth or too much poverty concentrated on the extreme ends of the scale tends to destroy it - economic revolution. It has happened over and over again throughout the world.

I can't call you stupid or ignorant, that's why I have no other choice but to identify you as dishonest. You are advocating a creeping form of socialism, yet trying to present yourself as a true capitalist. You're not. What you write demonstrates this.
But why can't you call me stupid or ignorant - you want to Calabrio - you are just biting at the bit to call me those things... You call me everything else - why draw the line there?


And of course you can trust me – :)
Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything evil and still more the man who is indifferent to everything.
 
But why can't you call me stupid or ignorant - you want to Calabrio - you are just biting at the bit to call me those things... You call me everything else - why draw the line there?

He saves those names for me. :rolleyes:
 

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