Why converting water won't increase your MPG

[Justin00LS]

I've had two friends tell me they are buying parts to make HHO generators for their cars to boost their MPG. One guy is already making HHO bubbles, just like they do on youtube. Now I am no expert, however I am an Electrical Engr student at the University of Kentucky, and here is what I told them...


Converting water into combustible gas can be done using electricity, but using the vehicle’s own electrical energy to convert water is simply a closed system that uses more energy, thus more gas.

The basic laws of thermodynamics tell us that 1 mole of burning hydrogen produces a fixed amount of energy: 241.8 kJ. Thermodynamics also tells us that the same amount of energy is required to split 1 mole of hydrogen out of water: 241.8 kJ.

If everything involved in the closed system(no outside source of power) was 100% efficient, the absolute best one can do in the closed system is break even. The reality is that internal combustion engines are only about 30% efficient, so for every 100kJ of energy one puts put in, 30KJ go into pushing the car forward, and 70KJ go into heat. Then one has the inefficiency of the alternator, the resistance in the wires between the alternator and the electrolysis tank, heat losses through the bearings in the alternator, transmission driveline losses, etc…

All said and done, for the 241KJ one put into electrolysis, they will lose most of it when it comes to burning it again. This is not just an opinion; this is simple chemistry and thermodynamics that has been 100% proved through theory and experimentation.

 

[cammerfe]

Please don't confuse me with facts!!!

I'm already baffled with B---S---

KS

 

[camthman]

you dont get 1.21 jiggawatts???? I mean all you need is a bolt of lightning!

 

[TDUB]

you dont get 1.21 jiggawatts???? I mean all you need is a bolt of lightning!

LMAO my favorite movie of all time.

 

[97stscaddy]

The gains in MPG do not come from simply adding a stream of HHO to the intake air supply. The gains come from tricking the cars computer into thinking that the engine is running rich, it reduces the fuel mixture (leans out) and you have to match the loss of gasoline with the HHO gas in order to produce the same power. Which is not hard because Hydrogen and Oxygen are both very volatile, and both burn much more efficiently than gasoline.

What you have said is entirely true, and if your friends think that just popping a line into the intake hose on the car is going to get them better fuel economy, they're going to be disappointed.

 

[KleenLS]

Converting water into combustible gas can be done using electricity, but using the vehicle’s own electrical energy to convert water is simply a closed system that uses more energy, thus more gas.

The basic laws of thermodynamics tell us that 1 mole of burning hydrogen produces a fixed amount of energy: 241.8 kJ. Thermodynamics also tells us that the same amount of energy is required to split 1 mole of hydrogen out of water: 241.8 kJ.

If everything involved in the closed system(no outside source of power) was 100% efficient, the absolute best one can do in the closed system is break even. The reality is that internal combustion engines are only about 30% efficient, so for every 100kJ of energy one puts put in, 30KJ go into pushing the car forward, and 70KJ go into heat. Then one has the inefficiency of the alternator, the resistance in the wires between the alternator and the electrolysis tank, heat losses through the bearings in the alternator, transmission driveline losses, etc…

All said and done, for the 241KJ one put into electrolysis, they will lose most of it when it comes to burning it again. This is not just an opinion; this is simple chemistry and thermodynamics that has been 100% proved through theory and experimentation.

Yeah! Wat he Said!!! hahaha

 

[mharrison]

The gains in MPG do not come from simply adding a stream of HHO to the intake air supply. The gains come from tricking the cars computer into thinking that the engine is running rich, it reduces the fuel mixture (leans out) and you have to match the loss of gasoline with the HHO gas in order to produce the same power. Which is not hard because Hydrogen and Oxygen are both very volatile, and both burn much more efficiently than gasoline.

What you have said is entirely true, and if your friends think that just popping a line into the intake hose on the car is going to get them better fuel economy, they're going to be disappointed.

+1. Fooling the computer while keeping the car running right is definitely the hard part.

 

[owlman]

But the waaaiiiting is the hardest part.

 

[Eric0508]

The gains in MPG do not come from simply adding a stream of HHO to the intake air supply. The gains come from tricking the cars computer into thinking that the engine is running rich, it reduces the fuel mixture (leans out) and you have to match the loss of gasoline with the HHO gas in order to produce the same power. Which is not hard because Hydrogen and Oxygen are both very volatile, and both burn much more efficiently than gasoline.

What you have said is entirely true, and if your friends think that just popping a line into the intake hose on the car is going to get them better fuel economy, they're going to be disappointed.

This is incorrect. It is impossible to improve your gas mileage by creating hydrogen on the fly using your engine power. Now, you can run your engine lean on gas and add the H2 you are creating, but you will not have any more power, and probably wont see any mpg improvement. In order to get the same power, and increaced mpg, and generate h2 on the fly, you literally would need to create energy from nothing. Which we know is impossible.

 

[Justin00LS]

The gains in MPG do not come from simply adding a stream of HHO to the intake air supply. The gains come from tricking the cars computer into thinking that the engine is running rich, it reduces the fuel mixture (leans out) and you have to match the loss of gasoline with the HHO gas in order to produce the same power.

...

So you’re saying the HHO is just there to trick the computer to make it run leaner… If that was the case, then one should just reprogram (tune) their PCM to actually run leaner and save on gas. They certainly wouldn't need an HHO that consumes energy to “fool” the computer.

Guys, this device defies the basic laws of science and it can not work. Yes it can make hydrogen, which is combustible, but it can not make more energy out of water (or anything else) than it consumes. "Energy can not be created nor destroyed"

I just wanted to let people know that it doesn’t work so they don’t waste their money on such devices. However, if one charged a battery every night and placed it in their trunk then it would theoretically work, because the energy used to convert the water would be from an alternate source.

 

[pektel]

In reference to Eric's last comment about impossibility of creating energy from nothing:

Wasn't that one of Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics? Something about "Energy is neither created nor destroyed..." then something about "it's transferred from one party to the next." IIRC, that is.

 

[jokken]

can't we just feed our cars hamburgers? thats how I create energy

 

[pektel]

red bull ftw

 

[n8bachelor]

I tend to agree with Eric and Justin on this one. I am not an Electrical Engineer but rather a Civil Engineer by trade (with a heavy emphasis on math and physics in college).

I have seen them all over the place (HHO generators) and they are advertised as wildly varying improvement in miles per gallon (I've seen 35-100% claimed). I must call BS on that claim, especially with modern, fuel injected, computer controlled cars.

Using the energy from the car's battery creates the HHO which then goes into the engine (a profoundly inefficient form of energy transformation), combusts into mechanical energy, and runs back through the alternator and returns to the battery. Even if the car is "tricked" into running lean, more of the combustion's power is required to replace the energy used to create the HHO and not move the car; thus a loss in power for propulsion. Maintaining the same speeds and acceleration then requires more fuel/HHO mixture and thus the net result is null.
One other point.... the rate at which the gas is produced, even in the largest units, is minuscule compared to the volume of air the engine requires to operate.

The only real gains are for those selling the "magic boxes". I have seen them as cheap as a $20 or as much as $500. Just depends on how big of a fish the marketing department is trying to catch.

On a side note: there has been no mention of the maintenance required to make these things run properly. Some require distilled water and vinegar (or baking soda) to be mixed in the chamber at proper proportions, requiring frequent refills and periodic flushing. I dont know about you but I do not keep bottles of distilled water or vinegar laying around in my house or car.

If you are serious about saving money on gas try hypermiling.

 

[rubberducky700]

i know of a shop in nebraska currently working on a system to fool the efi systems in fords right now. they have the system down pretty good but fooling your O2 sensor to belive your not getting any more air to run lean is a task. When i here more I will let you know. I am interested in trying this on my 90 F-150 to help it out on fuel a little bit

 

[BrklynExpress]

oh god these hypermilers are ridiculous. On top of those nuts, a lot of corrola, civic, and prius drivers drive very slow around where I live and I end up trying to pass them.

 

[ILLS]

i know of a shop in nebraska currently working on a system to fool the efi systems in fords right now. they have the system down pretty good but fooling your O2 sensor to belive your not getting any more air to run lean is a task. When i here more I will let you know. I am interested in trying this on my 90 F-150 to help it out on fuel a little bit

You don't have to fool the system if you know how to tune it... I don't know why those guys are actually building that "optimizer box". Everything you need to fool with is in the tune itself if you felt so inclined to try to do so. I say why reinvent the wheel?

 

[ILLS]

You guys stating that HHO cannot work due to energy loss are mistaken in your thinking. You said that since the system is closed that it cannot get more energy from anywhere else and thus cannot run efficiently enough to "add" energy rather than just drain it. I am not here to defend those HHO devices but I will respond to those comments...

How do some chemical reactions work? By introducing a small amount of energy which in turn causes the reaction which releases a much larger amount of stored potential energy. This can happen at the moleculare level, atomic level or so on. Look at nuclear fission for instance... While the HHO system is a closed loop system you forget that there is stored potential energy sitting there in that water in the form of H and O. It is something to ponder before automatically saying something like that cannot work based upon scientific principle alone.

While what you guys have said is true in the principle itself, the application of it is incorrect in the context to which you use.

 

[MMAFIGHTER121]

http://www.cracked.com/article_16484_6-retarded-gas-saving-schemes-people-are-actually-trying.html
a good read and actually this is addressed in it --- and its hilarious!!
and hypermilers actually end up costing more gas if you count things like the fact that because pokey in his 94 corolla wants to save tons of gas going through his green light at 4mph accelerating 1mph an hour that now 95 other cars are going to be trapped at the stoplight behind them idling for an additional 45 minutes...

 

[Justin00LS]

How do some chemical reactions work? By introducing a small amount of energy which in turn causes the reaction which releases a much larger amount of stored potential energy. This can happen at the moleculare level, atomic level or so on. Look at nuclear fission for instance...

You are right about this, however let me comment on your comment which was about my previous comment regarding my original comment

Bonds differ in strength in that there are weak bonds and strong bonds. Strong bonds are very stable and take a considerable amount of energy to break them. Our example-water

Nuclear energy is stored in the nucleus of atoms such as uranium, plutonium, etc, with UNSTABLE covalent bonds. The potential energy in nuclear power can be released easily because the bonds holding the matter together are UNSTABLE and EASILY BROKEN.

Water makes up a majority of earth and is abundant, and one reason is because the bonds of its diatomic constituents (hydrogen and oxygen) are STABLE, strong, and “happy” when they are together (together as in water).

Since water is in a stable state, it takes a considerable amount of energy to break the covalent bonds and convert it into hydrogen and oxygen. And regarding the covalent bond between hydrogen and oxygen, the amount of energy it takes to break that bond into its diatomic constituents IS EXACTLY THE SAME as the amount of energy released.

Energy in = energy out = 0%

Clear as mud?

 

[97stscaddy]

So you’re saying the HHO is just there to trick the computer to make it run leaner… If that was the case, then one should just reprogram (tune) their PCM to actually run leaner and save on gas. They certainly wouldn't need an HHO that consumes energy to “fool” the computer.

NO NO NO! Read it again, because that's not what I said.

YOU have to fool the computer into leaning out the mixture, by either changing the signal from the 02 sensors or re-programming the ECM, or any of the other creative ways that people have to screw with the computer in the car. You then add HHO to MAKE UP FOR the lower fuel ratio in the mixture.

This is incorrect. It is impossible to improve your gas mileage by creating hydrogen on the fly using your engine power. Now, you can run your engine lean on gas and add the H2 you are creating, but you will not have any more power, and probably wont see any mpg improvement. In order to get the same power, and increaced mpg, and generate h2 on the fly, you literally would need to create energy from nothing. Which we know is impossible.

You still run the car primarily on gasoline so you do not need to produce as much HHO as what would be required to run solely on HHO.

You guys aren't taking into account the fact that Hydrogen and Oxygen are both more volatile fuels than gasoline. Meaning you will get MORE energy from burning those two than you would get from burning the same amount of gasoline.

 

[rainjacks]

Keep in mind that the alternator is always producing more electricity than the car actually needs. That is unless you have a kicking sound system. So, if one were to use only the extra power already available through the alternator to cause the reaction you would be using energy that would otherwise be wasted. Still, these HHO things are crap and there is no way they can produce enough Hydrogen or Oxygen to make any difference to the performance of the car or its mileage. The additional weight of the device and the water would be more of a problem than the solution can overcome.

I'll wait for the Mr. Fusion to be available. I think LSKoncepts has it on backorder.

 

[Justin00LS]

Meaning you will get MORE energy from burning those two than you would get from burning the same amount of gasoline.

But the water needs to be converted into useable energy first. If I bought 1 mole of gasoline from the gas pump, it is ready to burn. If I bought 1 mole of HHO, it would be ready to burn.

But if i bought 1 mole of water, I would need to convert it into its diatomic constituents (HHO) BEFORE it is ready to burn. The problem is that this takes energy to convert it into something (HHO) that I can use for energy. It takes 241.8kJ (which is the exact same amount of energy I would get from 1 mole of HHO) to convert 1 mole of water to HHO.

 

[Justin00LS]

Keep in mind that the alternator is always producing more electricity than the car actually needs.

Too bad that is not the case

 

[Kelleyo]

"leaning out" your engine is a good way to burn a piston.

Also the lean mixture can result in very high NOx emissions http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/nox/ that may need to be cleaned up with special catalysts.

I agree lean burn is the future but will be in cars that have been designed for it and have the proper catalysts. Trying to make our today's cars leaner is a recipe for disaster.