Faith

[cammerfe]

If one is willing to make use of the most original meaning, 'gnosos' means 'knowledge'---coming from the Greek. And the prefix 'A' or 'Ag' suggests 'not'.

Therefore, 'agnostic' in its most pure form suggests 'not knowing'. As commonly used today the word has become muddled to suggest 'impossibility of knowing' but as applied to myself I believe that I'm on firm ground in simply saying "I don't know-everything."

But not knowing everything DOES NOT imply an impossibility of knowing---which is where shallow thinkers are wont to go. With all that said, faith is a regular part of my life. I just muddle along. I come here and start or chime in on a subject and discover some who are, themselves, only here to squinch their eyes shut, stick their fingers in their ears and scream shrill-y, "Nya, Nya, Nya." Their purpose is to be disruptive and call attention to themselves much as small bratty kids often do.

And others are here to show the superiority of their erudition---and make much of tiny details that, in their minds, serve to prove their piosity and provide a platter on which to display their self-rightiousness.

If you'll be honest, you know who you are.

And then there are others, seekers such as Shag and 04, who try to offer a bit of truth here and there. I want you to know how much I appreciate you.

When it comes to faith, I must admit that in some areas it seems mighty black out there. But I know a few things---

When my mother was a tiny little girl, her younger brother, an infant, stuck his finger in her eye and his fingernail cut her eye in such a fashion that the aqueous humour was bleeding out and she was blinded. My grandmother, a farm wife with a great deal of faith, put her hand over the eye and prayed. The eye was immediately healed. I don't know why that happened---just as I've described it---but it did.

Another time, at a summer church camp, a girl of 12-or-13 came to camp in spite of having just broken her collar-bone. Walking around on the rough ground of the camp had her in such pain that she was taken into town to the doctor. She was again x-rayed and a better sling was provided with instructions to bring her back to the medical office the next day. If things weren't better she'd have to go home. The campers prayed for her at the evening get-together and the next morning she said the pain was gone. There was a bit of skepticism because she so very adamantly didn't want to leave camp. At the Doctor's office a fresh x-ray showed no sign of the very obvious break from the day before.

I don't know how or why these these things occurred. But I am reminded of Matthew 17: 20. No matter how bleak things might seem I can always come up with at least that amount of faith. And I go on!

Comments are solicited.

KS

 

[hrmwrm]

"Nya, Nya, Nya." Their purpose is to be disruptive and call attention to themselves much as small bratty kids often do.

your perspective, isn't it. i see the same from mine ks.

-and make much of tiny details that, in their minds, serve to prove their piosity and provide a platter on which to display their self-rightiousness.

i make much of MAJOR details, and point out the absurdity of trying to say fact from unproven sources. doesn't make me righteous, just makes me logical. i want facts and figures, not platitudes and stories. i'm tired of being proselytized.
since i think your statement applies to me, is why i answered.

and i have faith without a book and imaginary friend, but to each their own.

you know, ks, when i was younger, and framing houses, i was nailing together an arch around a tub in a custom home, when i caught a nail on edge, and it tiddly winked out and caught me in the eye. and it watered so bad, i couldn't believe i hadn't poked a hole in it. stuff was pouring, so it had to be a hole.
so i closed it and headed for the hospital, and lo and behold, there it was just fine. a little prednisone for swelling, and i could see out of it right away too.
some things aren't quite what they seem.

it's amazing, you know. what people sometimes say. there have been people confess to crimes they haven't commited. and if you weren't familiar with the particulars of a case, some might believe them.

 

[cammerfe]

I haven't taken time yet to figure out how to put you on 'ignore'.

KS

 

[shagdrum]

I make much of MAJOR details, and point out the absurdity of trying to say fact from unproven sources. doesn't make me righteous, just makes me logical. i want facts and figures, not platitudes and stories.

Yet you fail to justify the metaphysical assumptions in your worldview, meaning that world view rests on faith. Gotta love new athiest special pleading.

 

[hrmwrm]

double post.

 

[hrmwrm]

Yet you fail to justify the metaphysical assumptions in your worldview,

really? what would they be. you seem to define my world view without knowing it.
just like the arrogant little twat you have always been.

 

[cammerfe]

Since you have been at some pains to inform us of your world view for an extended number of years, it's safe to say that we understand where you're coming from. I'd say that you are an ignorant, atheist-leaning, snotty, moderately foul-mouthed liberal/progressive nitwit from that part of our neighbor to the north called cana-duh. You seem to go about perpetually with your eyes squinched shut, your fingers in your ears, and as you stumble along you can be heard saying, "lah-lah-lah-lah-lah..."

KS

 

[shagdrum]

really? what would they be. you seem to define my world view without knowing it.
just like the arrogant little twat you have always been.

Yes, I arrogantly assume...that you have a worldview? That makes no sense.

The thing is, EVERY worldview HAS to have some sort of metaphysical assumptions behind it. You can't have a worldview and not have any metaphysical assumptions. You may not be aware of the assumptions, but they are there, nontheless.

And I have pointed this out to you years ago. You tried to act like "metaphysics" was something I made up or some odd Right-wing talking point. If you are STILL going to run with that line of attack, it only shows your inability to learn (which undercuts any claim to reason on your part).

Every single philosopher throughout history (including all the athiests) have not only been aware of metaphysics, but have made assertions regarding it.

 

[hrmwrm]

yes, I arrogantly assume...that you have a worldview?

no, you arrogantly tell me what my view has to be.

i'm not a philosopher. i don't have to hold a metaphysical view.
just as i don't hold to any of the mythologies of the world.

Every single philosopher throughout history (including all the athiests)

every atheist philosopher, but not every atheist.

as i said before shag, roll out your deity. bring him down from the heavens. prove him real.
til then, he's just another myth like the thousands of others through the years.

 

[cammerfe]

You arrogantly assume that the onus is on me to prove something to you. I don't have to prove ANYTHING to you---you are the naysayer.

KS

 

[hrmwrm]

Since you have been at some pains to inform us of your world view for an extended number of years, it's safe to say that we understand where you're coming from. I'd say that you are an ignorant, atheist-leaning, snotty, moderately foul-mouthed liberal/progressive nitwit from that part of our neighbor to the north called cana-duh. You seem to go about perpetually with your eyes squinched shut, your fingers in your ears, and as you stumble along you can be heard saying, "lah-lah-lah-lah-lah..."KS

funny. i have similar thoughts about you ks. except yours is a condescending, nasty mouthed, right, conservative leaning posterior orifice from the arrogant side of my southern living neighbours.one of the american stereo types why people hate america but love canada around the world.
You seem to go about perpetually with your eyes squinched shut, your fingers in your ears, thumb up your bum,and as you stumble along you can be heard saying, "lah-lah-lah-lah-lah..."
you reply to me, so who are you to bitch about it.

look at all you religious crazies who show up trying to proseltyze me all the time. you all want to show how right you are in your belief without proving what you are believing in.
kinda like the easter bunny, tooth fairy, and santa claus. why would you throw away the others but keep one?
religious people are alresdy athiests about all the other religions. even all the other flavours of your own.
a little critical thinking brings out the improbability of them all. you have no evedence for any of them, so what makes a person choose 1 over another?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

here's how many fall just under the christian roof. that doesn't look insane to you?
if you all are christian, how can you all have so many different beliefs? it was 1 man, 1 book, how can there be so many differences.
it's probably because people just make stuff up as they go along.

 

[hrmwrm]

You arrogantly assume that the onus is on me to prove something to you. I don't have to prove ANYTHING to you---you are the naysayer.

KS

you're right. i'm the naysayer. i don't have to prove anything. your the one touting the existence. i'm saying prove it.
if your trying to sell me a car, i'd want to see the car, correct?
so, your trying to sell me a god. show him.

 

[shagdrum]

no, you arrogantly tell me what my view has to be.

Only in the same sense that a doctor would tell you that you HAVE to breath in order to live.

Just as it is physically impossible to live without certain things, or it is mechanically impossible for an engine to run without certain components, it is logically impossible for a worldview to be held without certain assumptions.

You clearly are unaware of the assumptions that allow for the worldview you hold, but that doesn't mean your worldview doesn't rest on those assumptions.

It would be absurd to say that if someone is unaware of what a crankshaft is (or why it is necessary), then the engine in their car runs without one. But that is essentially what you are asserting in denying metaphysics and the metaphysical assumptions behind your worldview.

Do you really not understand the very nature of assumptions? You do not have to be aware of them for them to be there. Critical analysis consists of searching out and questioning assumptions that you may not have been aware of.

 

[hrmwrm]

You clearly are unaware of the assumptions that allow for the worldview you hold

you self important little man, what would those be. let's see if you're right.

 

[cammerfe]

Worm, don't you see that asking him to spell out YOUR assumptions is at the very least, silly. Look within yourself and seek to see what your assumptions are. It'll be a good journey if you are being honest in your study.

KS

 

[hrmwrm]

because there are no assumptions for my world view. it's in front of me, and undeniable. i walk it every day.
but shag likes thinking he's smart, but can't prove crap.
his asumption is that the supernatural exists, and works from there.
so, show me evidence of the supernatural.
same offer to you ks.

you can continue to argue for a myth, or stand out and prove it once and for all. and that goes to all the cults, not just yours.
but i guess some people need it to create significance in their life.

i once did say i had faith, but then it's based on reasonable assumptions. like the floor will be beneath my feet when i put them down in the morning as i get out of bed.
my house will still be in the same place it was the day before, because that is a reasonable assumption.
these are daily occurences, that happen daily without any help. it takes no supernatural greatness to keep them there.
there is nothing in experience to make that assumption.

do you get where i'm going here, ks?
there is nothing in life experience to make me think there is an unnatural force controlling it. or guiding it. or creating it.
it is not a life experience. you have to be told.
while it might be nice to imagine it, it is just that. imaginary.

it gets annoying when the arguements of no substance keep being marched out ks.
same theological/philosophical crap.
no "we found heaven here in the hubble" stuff anywhere.
sorry ks. i don't accept arguements without some strong evidence.
the bible for truth has the same credibilty as the bhagavad gita.
bhagavad gita being older. why is yours any more real?
are you understanding now?

if it works for you, keep it.
enjoy your life. you too shag.

 

[cammerfe]

I have every intention of doing so. And Shag probably feels the same way.

KS