Hydraulic to Electric Cooling Fan

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2001LS8Sport

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I posted this comment on another thread, but thought I would put it here and see if anyone has any information:

I have a question...has anyone tried converting the hydraulic fan on the earlier models to an electric from the 03 and up models? I wonder what would be involved. I would think you could use one of several types of controllers...doesn't have to be the PCM that controls it. But I wonder what would happen when you disconnect the hydraulic controls. Would it throw codes? It seems to me that converting to the electric fan would be a far superior fix than repairing/replacing the trouble prone hydraulic unit.
 
I think that the hydraulic fan is connected in some way with power steering pump, plus you would have to work out some electrical problems that may occur and also you would have to figure out a way to controll it.
 
maxlsv8 said:
I think that the hydraulic fan is connected in some way with power steering pump, plus you would have to work out some electrical problems that may occur and also you would have to figure out a way to controll it.
Click to expand...

Separate pump and resevoir. If my pump/fan went, I might consider an electric fan also. They have controllers that are adjustable and easy to wire up too.
 
lsbit said:
Separate pump and resevoir. If my pump/fan went, I might consider an electric fan also. They have controllers that are adjustable and easy to wire up too.
Click to expand...
I think a problem that you might have if you went to an electric fan is the load put onto the alternator. From the people I have talked to and my experience is that the alternator would have trouble handling the increased load of an electric fan. But, if someone has some expert advice on this issue, that would be great. My car needs a new pump and it is out of its warranty with the dealership........however, it is a pre-existing problem that they didn't fix right while it was under warranty so I am waiting to hear back to see if they'll be able to get it covered.

The fan set-up on the LS is complicated to say the least. The cylinder head temp. sensor (CHT) will send a signal to a solenoid in the hydraulic pump which will open a valve to allow fluid to flow through the fan motor at an increased pressure resulting in higher RPM's.
 
DLS8K said:
I think a problem that you might have if you went to an electric fan is the load put onto the alternator. From the people I have talked to and my experience is that the alternator would have trouble handling the increased load of an electric fan. But, if someone has some expert advice on this issue, that would be great. My car needs a new pump and it is out of its warranty with the dealership........however, it is a pre-existing problem that they didn't fix right while it was under warranty so I am waiting to hear back to see if they'll be able to get it covered.

The fan set-up on the LS is complicated to say the least. The cylinder head temp. sensor (CHT) will send a signal to a solenoid in the hydraulic pump which will open a valve to allow fluid to flow through the fan motor at an increased pressure resulting in higher RPM's.
Click to expand...

I'm not worried about the alternator. I can't remember the output on these cars, but it's substantial. The fan should actually draw less than many stereo systems that are installed. Even if the alternator were an issue, it's a very simple matter to upgrade.

As to controlling the electric fan, that's a piece of cake. There are many systems out there that will give you plenty of options...including totally automatic control. It is also easy to wire in a relay so it's on whenever the A/C is on. So all that isn't an issue.

What I'm worried about is removing the control of the hydraulic unit and what it will do to the ECM. I wonder if it would throw codes and put the ECM into default? But what if you left all the controls there and just removed the fan, reservoir, pump, etc? That way the ECM would think it's still controlling the fan even though it wasn't even there. I don't think there is a feedback sensor to the ECM to actually tell it that the fan is turning...but I'm not sure on that one. I really can't help but think this is a very doable upgrade that should get rid of the trouble prone hydraulic unit. I think I'll do some looking at the wiring diagrams and see what they show.
 
Here is what the wiring diagrams show. The hydraulic solenoid is powered from the junction box. There is a ground wire from it to the ECM. This means that the ECM controls the ground to this circuit to control the solenoid. Just like the IAC motor. Now, the coolant temp sensor is also tied into the ECM. The ECM uses this information to control the ground (and thus the fan speed) of the solenoid. These are two completely seperate circuits that are tied together at the ECM! There is also a circuit from the a/c pressure cycling switch so that the ECM can turn the fan on when the a/c is on. That surprises me...I thought they would use an input from the ATC instead to keep the fan from cycling with the compressor...but I digress. I see absolutely no type of sensor wire from the solenoid to the ECM. Just the ground. I wouldn't be surprised that the ECM could tell that there is no solenoid present simply by the load on the ground circuit. But is sure looks like to me that if you left the CTS and solenoid in place, the ECM has no way of knowing what the fan is actually doing. There is no fan sensor!! This sounds promising! What really frosts my cookies now is I just passed on a factory fan out of an 03 on eBay that went for dirt cheap!! You can bet I won't pass on the next one.

I really think this is a very doable deal guys. As long as you can get a fan that properly fits and get a controller that fits your needs, I'll bet it works!
 
2001LS8Sport said:
Here is what the wiring diagrams show. The hydraulic solenoid is powered from the junction box. There is a ground wire from it to the ECM. This means that the ECM controls the ground to this circuit to control the solenoid. Just like the IAC motor. Now, the coolant temp sensor is also tied into the ECM. The ECM uses this information to control the ground (and thus the fan speed) of the solenoid. These are two completely seperate circuits that are tied together at the ECM! There is also a circuit from the a/c pressure cycling switch so that the ECM can turn the fan on when the a/c is on. That surprises me...I thought they would use an input from the ATC instead to keep the fan from cycling with the compressor...but I digress. I see absolutely no type of sensor wire from the solenoid to the ECM. Just the ground. I wouldn't be surprised that the ECM could tell that there is no solenoid present simply by the load on the ground circuit. But is sure looks like to me that if you left the CTS and solenoid in place, the ECM has no way of knowing what the fan is actually doing. There is no fan sensor!! This sounds promising! What really frosts my cookies now is I just passed on a factory fan out of an 03 on eBay that went for dirt cheap!! You can bet I won't pass on the next one.

I really think this is a very doable deal guys. As long as you can get a fan that properly fits and get a controller that fits your needs, I'll bet it works!
Click to expand...

I bet we will all be hovering around ebay a bit more now looking for fans. I think this would be a great item to replace. So far I have been very lucky with my fan but now that I have said something I am sure my luck will change. :(
 
Dont worry I am in the process of selling my house so you got some time. I will be a gentleman and let you go first. But I intend to follow this closely and shop for a wiring diagram becasue I think this is a great idea.
 
DLS8K said:
I think a problem that you might have if you went to an electric fan is the load put onto the alternator. From the people I have talked to and my experience is that the alternator would have trouble handling the increased load of an electric fan. But, if someone has some expert advice on this issue, that would be great. My car needs a new pump and it is out of its warranty with the dealership........however, it is a pre-existing problem that they didn't fix right while it was under warranty so I am waiting to hear back to see if they'll be able to get it covered.

The fan set-up on the LS is complicated to say the least. The cylinder head temp. sensor (CHT) will send a signal to a solenoid in the hydraulic pump which will open a valve to allow fluid to flow through the fan motor at an increased pressure resulting in higher RPM's.
Click to expand...

Unless you drive 5 miles to work and it takes you 45 minutes to get there (aka solid traffic all the way), an electric fan probably won't even need to come on. If it's used in light to moderate traffic, it should go off once the car moves for a little bit (the electric fans in my old '92 Civic never came on except when the car was sitting still for a LONG time, and RX-7 owners who put electric fans on their cars don't need to turn them on unless they're sitting still for a little bit, and rotaries run HOT).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the alternator, it probably puts out more than enough, and if it doesn't, the battery can supply enough power to run the fan in stop and go traffic, then recharge once you're done sitting still and moving and the fan is off.
 
Electric Fan Conversion

Well, I converted my 2002 Lincoln LS from hydraulic to electric. My hydraulic pump wasn't working. So, I got a factory fan (electric) for an 03 model. I found a problem though. The 03 fans have a micro processor built into the fan motor. A signal from the computer controls the speed of the fan. The problem is, no one, not even a dealer could tell me what kind of signal the computer has to send the processor to up the speed of the fan. So, I put 12v on it and it appears to run on high speed. I used the existing A/C relay so it will come on when the a/c is on. I then went to advance auto parts and purchased an adjustable fan control with a temperature probe. I slipped the probe into the radiator fins and when the radiator heats up..the fan comes on and cools the system. Took a little tweaking to get the fan on temp close to where it needed to be, but I got it. Now...I discovered problem number two. I may be wrong here, but I believe the electric fans were for the V-6 model. I say this because if you compare the hydraulic fan with the electric..there are more fins on the hydraulic fan and they are bigger..hints..it would move much more cfm of air. I found out the hard way. The fan worked pretty good until the A/c was on. Then the engine got hot anyway..even with the fan running..not enough air being moved for the V-8 engine. I then went to Autozone and purchased two 12" slimline pusher fans and mounted them in front of the condensor. Now it cools perfectly...the slimline fans are actually quiter than the stock electric fan. I was surprised. So I run three fans..the two little 12" pushers and the electric I installed first..they all come on together with the adjustable fan control and probe. I am VERY satisfied with how they work and I hope this has been helpful to you.
 
immusicman said:
Well, I converted my 2002 Lincoln LS from hydraulic to electric. My hydraulic pump wasn't working. So, I got a factory fan (electric) for an 03 model. I found a problem though. The 03 fans have a micro processor built into the fan motor. A signal from the computer controls the speed of the fan. The problem is, no one, not even a dealer could tell me what kind of signal the computer has to send the processor to up the speed of the fan. So, I put 12v on it and it appears to run on high speed. I used the existing A/C relay so it will come on when the a/c is on. I then went to advance auto parts and purchased an adjustable fan control with a temperature probe. I slipped the probe into the radiator fins and when the radiator heats up..the fan comes on and cools the system. Took a little tweaking to get the fan on temp close to where it needed to be, but I got it. Now...I discovered problem number two. I may be wrong here, but I believe the electric fans were for the V-6 model. I say this because if you compare the hydraulic fan with the electric..there are more fins on the hydraulic fan and they are bigger..hints..it would move much more cfm of air. I found out the hard way. The fan worked pretty good until the A/c was on. Then the engine got hot anyway..even with the fan running..not enough air being moved for the V-8 engine. I then went to Autozone and purchased two 12" slimline pusher fans and mounted them in front of the condensor. Now it cools perfectly...the slimline fans are actually quiter than the stock electric fan. I was surprised. So I run three fans..the two little 12" pushers and the electric I installed first..they all come on together with the adjustable fan control and probe. I am VERY satisfied with how they work and I hope this has been helpful to you.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a little innovation went a long way for you!

A couple comments...the 03 and up v8's had an electric fan. I wonder if you got one out of a V6? Your cure was very good...and Spal makes a ton of different sized fans you could choose from for aux fans.

What did you do with the hydraulic pump? If you left it, it has to circulate fluid or it will burn up. Did you eliminate it and use a different belt? I was thinking about building a bracket and idler instead...

As to controlling the electric fan...the hydraulic control solenoid uses ECM signals to control the output speed. I am willing to bet you dollars to donuts that the same signal can be used to control the electric fan. I need to look into the signal processes a little more to be sure. But your aftermarket control is very viable.

Great job!!
 
immusicman said:
Well, I converted my 2002 Lincoln LS from hydraulic to electric. My hydraulic pump wasn't working. So, I got a factory fan (electric) for an 03 model. I found a problem though. The 03 fans have a micro processor built into the fan motor. A signal from the computer controls the speed of the fan. The problem is, no one, not even a dealer could tell me what kind of signal the computer has to send the processor to up the speed of the fan. So, I put 12v on it and it appears to run on high speed. I used the existing A/C relay so it will come on when the a/c is on. I then went to advance auto parts and purchased an adjustable fan control with a temperature probe. I slipped the probe into the radiator fins and when the radiator heats up..the fan comes on and cools the system. Took a little tweaking to get the fan on temp close to where it needed to be, but I got it. Now...I discovered problem number two. I may be wrong here, but I believe the electric fans were for the V-6 model. I say this because if you compare the hydraulic fan with the electric..there are more fins on the hydraulic fan and they are bigger..hints..it would move much more cfm of air. I found out the hard way. The fan worked pretty good until the A/c was on. Then the engine got hot anyway..even with the fan running..not enough air being moved for the V-8 engine. I then went to Autozone and purchased two 12" slimline pusher fans and mounted them in front of the condensor. Now it cools perfectly...the slimline fans are actually quiter than the stock electric fan. I was surprised. So I run three fans..the two little 12" pushers and the electric I installed first..they all come on together with the adjustable fan control and probe. I am VERY satisfied with how they work and I hope this has been helpful to you.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you got a pretty good setup there.

One thing you might want to do for reliability, in case the temperature sensor you've got ever fails (it's been known to happen more often than we think), you might want to make a little relay setup that has the fans come on by default when the car is on (regardless of the signal from the temp sensor), but when the temperature sensor is cooler than X degrees, have the sensor itself actually DISABLE the fan. That way in case something fails, you've at least got your fans still running and not a cooked engine.
 
fan conversion elaboration

Sorry it took me so long to get back here and answer a few questions. As far as doing away with the hydraulic pump, just leave it and cut the end off the supply line to the fan and attach it to the return line. It will continue to pump enough fluid to lubricate pump. Then, to answer the question about using the existing wires to the pump solenoid to control an electric fan..forget it. It won't work. I already tried it. I too, thought of that idea. The electric fan apparently is controlled by a ground, BUT..it uses different resistance for the speeds. I could come up with no way to figure out what signal the fan wants. When I tried to wire it according to the diagram from an 03 Lincoln, it just wants to run all the time. So, not being able to control the speed..I felt it best to just install the relay kit with adjustable temperature control..adjusts to turn the fan on at whatever temperature you want it to. The probe just slips into your radiator fins..it heats up and closes the contacts on the relay and wahla, your fan is now on. It will go off when it cools down. I like the setup just fine..I do wish I could have kept it stock, but ...I didn't like the idea of spending a fortune on fixing it. Plus, if something goes wrong with my setup now..it will be much easier to diagnose and fix. 2 twelve inch pusher fans work great. You could probably use 16" or bigger single fan as a puller (universal) and get a couple 12" pushers and put them on the condensor and you won't have to buy a factory fit fan. I would have done that if I hadn't already had the ford fan. You could cut your the center out of the hydraulic fan unit and remove the motor and blades and keep your bracketing for your a/c drier and your cooling solenoid or your secondary water pump, however yours is set up. I would have done that for certain if I hadn't had the ford fan. Anyway, feel free to private message me if you have any additional questions...I am glad to help anyone. I am a mechanic/shop owner. I don't do alot of these but have the resources to look up some tough questions. Thanks to all for taking the time to read my replies.
 
immusicman...the hydraulic control signals WILL work with an electric fan! Any signal can be used to control the fan speed. And almost all ECM actuators use a ground side switch for activation to control current loads on the ECM. If the electric fan module isn't accepting the signals from the solenoid control, either it's wired incorrectly (and that could be part of the factory wiring change) or it's missing additional control mechanisms. The use of additional relays may be necessary. But as long as the ECM is providing different signals to control fan speed according to demand, it CAN be done. Now, whether it's worth it or not is another question....

Your solution is a very viable one and one that should be used unless someone is willing to spend the hours and money necessary to figure out the ECM control.
 
I too thought it would be possible to control the electric fan with the hydraulic solenoid wires. Problem is the fact that it does use a ground, but it uses a full ground for high speed, partial grounds for the others ( grounds with resistance). .The ford Lincoln Ls electric fans use a microprocessor that expects a certain signal from your computer. If the signal isn't exactly the right resistance ground...I mean to the 1/10 of an ohm....then it simply runs on one speed all the time. I don't want my fan running all the time because of no controll. You cannot control the fan speed on the factory fan by just installing relays...because you have the microprocessor built in...you only have two control wires..a hot all the time, and a controlled ground hookup and if your computer is not configured for that controlled ground., it won't work..just runs high speed. An aftermarket fan with more than one speed with relays, yes maybe..but not the Motocraft microprocessor fan. thanks for reading.
 
I agree 100% with your assessment IM. I should have been clearer in my previous post. Any use of additional control devices such as relays, voltage limiters (resistors) etc would involve the removal of any use of the fan controller. You would need to bypass that completely and wire the fan directly and use your own controls...maybe even an aftermarket controller or a controller from another vehicle...maybe not even a Ford vehicle. But with the proper relay configuration, I still feel...actually, I KNOW that the ECM signals can be used to control fan speed. It's just a matter of how much time and effort someone is willing to spend on engineering it.

Also, since I don't have a fan sitting in front of me, I'm also not sure of the viability of wiring the factory fan directly and eliminating the module.

Again, as I said earlier, your solution is a very good one and should work for a long time and be very reliable.
 
Barwick said:
Unless you drive 5 miles to work and it takes you 45 minutes to get there (aka solid traffic all the way), an electric fan probably won't even need to come on. If it's used in light to moderate traffic, it should go off once the car moves for a little bit (the electric fans in my old '92 Civic never came on except when the car was sitting still for a LONG time, and RX-7 owners who put electric fans on their cars don't need to turn them on unless they're sitting still for a little bit, and rotaries run HOT).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the alternator, it probably puts out more than enough, and if it doesn't, the battery can supply enough power to run the fan in stop and go traffic, then recharge once you're done sitting still and moving and the fan is off.
Click to expand...

I inherited an ls with a bad hyd fan and I can tell you these cars overheat faster than anything I have ever seen , 30-60 seconds after I slow under 45 mph this thing pegs the temp gauge and boils over. I suspect too small coolant capacity and hardly any grill opening for airflow
 
I found this forum looking for answers to my overheating issues and have found a bunch of help , thanks to all.
I don't know why so many are concerned about controlling fan speed on an electric conversion tho , just run it full blast . Not like its going to overcool the motor or anything
 
2001LS8Sport said:
immusicman...the hydraulic control signals WILL work with an electric fan! Any signal can be used to control the fan speed. And almost all ECM actuators use a ground side switch for activation to control current loads on the ECM. If the electric fan module isn't accepting the signals from the solenoid control, either it's wired incorrectly (and that could be part of the factory wiring change) or it's missing additional control mechanisms. The use of additional relays may be necessary. But as long as the ECM is providing different signals to control fan speed according to demand, it CAN be done. Now, whether it's worth it or not is another question....

Your solution is a very viable one and one that should be used unless someone is willing to spend the hours and money necessary to figure out the ECM control.
Click to expand...

Not exactly. The PWM frequency for the electric fan is incompatible with the PWM frequency for the hydraulic fan. Another member on here made an electronic circuit to convert the frequency. It can't be done with relays.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=69519
 
My hydraulic fan is still working fine with 150K on the clock. But I intend to install an electric fan when I do the engine replacement.

FWIW, I've used an aftermarket electric fan on my '63 F-100 for more than 10 years. I simply use an 'on-off' switch and turn it on any time I'm in traffic and see the temp start to climb. (I'll use an automatic controller with a manual over-ride on the LS)

KS
 
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