What is Poverty in the United States Today?

shagdrum

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What is Poverty in the United States Today?

executive summary:

Each year for the past two decades, the U.S. Census Bureau has reported that over 30 million Americans were living in “poverty.” In recent years, the Census has reported that one in seven Americans are poor. But what does it mean to be “poor” in America?

To the average American, the word “poverty” implies significant material deprivation, an inability to provide a family with adequate nutritious food, reasonable shelter, and clothing. Activists reinforce this view, declaring that being poor in U.S. means being “unable to obtain the basic material necessities of life.” The news media amplify this idea: Most news stories on poverty feature homeless families, people living in crumbling shacks, or lines of the downtrodden eating in soup kitchens.

The actual living conditions of America’s poor are far different from these images. According to the government’s own survey data, in 2005, the average household defined as poor by the government lived in a house or apartment equipped with air conditioning and cable TV. The family had a car (a third of the poor have two or more cars). For entertainment, the household had two color televisions, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there were children in the home (especially boys), the family had a game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation. In the kitchen, the household had a microwave, refrigerator, and an oven and stove. Other household conveniences included a clothes washer, clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a coffee maker.

The home of the average poor family was in good repair and not overcrowded. In fact, the typical poor American had more living space than the average European. (Note: that’s average European, not poor European.) The poor family was able to obtain medical care when needed. When asked, most poor families stated they had had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.

By its own report, the family was not hungry. The average intake of protein, vitamins, and minerals by poor children is indistinguishable from children in the upper middle class, and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor boys today at ages 18 and 19 are actually taller and heavier than middle-class boys of similar age in the late 1950s, and are a full one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than American soldiers who fought in World War II. The major dietary problem facing poor Americans is eating too much, not too little; the majority of poor adults, like most Americans, are overweight.

The living standards of the poor have improved steadily for many decades. In particular, as the prices of new consumer items fall, these conveniences become available throughout society, including poor households. Consumer items that were luxuries or significant purchases for the middle class a few decades ago have become commonplace among the poor. As a rule of thumb, poor households tend to obtain the latest conveniences about a dozen years after the middle class.

True, the average poor family, described above, does not represent every poor family. There is a range of living conditions among the poor. Some poor households fare better than the average household described above. Others are worse off.

Although the overwhelming majority of the poor are well housed, at any single point in time during the recession in 2009, around one in 70 poor persons was homeless. Although the majority of poor families have an adequate and reasonably steady supply of food, many worry about keeping food on the table, and one in five experienced temporary food shortages at various times in 2009. Those who are temporarily short on food or are homeless will find no comfort in the fact that their condition is relatively infrequent. Their distress is real and a serious concern.

Nonetheless, sound public policy cannot be based on faulty information or misunderstanding. Regrettably, most discussions of poverty in the U.S. rely on sensationalism, exaggeration, and misinformation. But an effective anti-poverty policy must be based on an accurate assessment of actual living conditions and the causes of deprivation. In the long term, grossly exaggerating the extent and severity of material deprivation in the U.S. will benefit neither the poor, the economy, nor society as a whole.

[read the full paper HERE]
 
Our poor have as much and are as rich as the upper class in India.
Plus despite having all this stuff and this standard of living these people don't pay any income taxes only sales tax.
They should be called the comfortable lower class and the poor designation should be for the people in real distress and discomfort.

The Mad magazine welfare queen driving a Cadillac cartoons comes to mind.
 
I've done mission trips to Mexico, you want to talk about poor some of these small villages were so poor that they would have troughs on the side of the roads with raw sewage running through them. Americas poor should be thankful for what they have.
 
I've done mission trips to Mexico, you want to talk about poor some of these small villages were so poor that they would have troughs on the side of the roads with raw sewage running through them. Americas poor should be thankful for what they have.
The same could be said about Americas rich who just keep wanting more more more. CEO pay keeps shooting upwards while they're clearly not doing anything special to deserve the constant increase. The rich lay off countless workers while not lowering their own pay or bonuses one bit. Logically if a company is losing money part of the blame falls on the CEO. However he's almost never the one to suffer for it.

Or you've got companies that are even making a profit while employing people here and then they suddenly decide to simply close up shop and move all their manufacturing overseas to make a higher profit margin. Screw the working class and their families. Anything for the almighty dollar:shifty:
 
Classic class warfare

The same could be said about Americas rich who just keep wanting more more more. CEO pay keeps shooting upwards while they're clearly not doing anything special to deserve the constant increase. The rich lay off countless workers while not lowering their own pay or bonuses one bit. Logically if a company is losing money part of the blame falls on the CEO. However he's almost never the one to suffer for it.

Or you've got companies that are even making a profit while employing people here and then they suddenly decide to simply close up shop and move all their manufacturing overseas to make a higher profit margin. Screw the working class and their families. Anything for the almighty dollar:shifty:

Whinge, whinge, whinge. You got moren' me an' it ain't fair!! I push a broom, or run a machine (it took me about a minute anna half to learn the job) but I'm gooder'n you. An' you just hafta run a whole company where I gotta work almos' FIVE hours outa my eight hour shift. You went through nine years of school and I got halfway through the ninth grade before quitten. IT AIN'T FAIR!!!

Against such thinking, no discourse is possible.

KS
(I work for myself)
 
Whinge, whinge, whinge. You got moren' me an' it ain't fair!! I push a broom, or run a machine (it took me about a minute anna half to learn the job) but I'm gooder'n you. An' you just hafta run a whole company where I gotta work almos' FIVE hours outa my eight hour shift. You went through nine years of school and I got halfway through the ninth grade before quitten. IT AIN'T FAIR!!!

Against such thinking, no discourse is possible.

KS
(I work for myself)
I can play that game too.

Look at me I'm a bigshot CEO. I'm basically just a figurehead and I've got the engineers, market analysts, managers and laborers doing all the real work while I sit in my office all day browsing porn. I occasionally need to go to meetings where I give the go ahead decision on issues that are typically already explained and well thought out by my employees. Basically I just sit back and reap in the profits when the going is good. When the going is bad I still reap in the profits and simply lay people off/outsource to cover the losses. Why should I ever need to take a pay cut? They're just expendable peons anyway HUEHUEHUE:D

Honestly why do people defend the greedy elite? It's not like they give half a :q:q:q:q about you or your problems. People need to stand together and DEMAND better.

Not all CEO's are bad or lazy, but a large amount of them are and they always get their golden parachute after running their company into the ground through their greed/corruption. At the very least they ought to be paying higher income taxes. NN bs about taxing job creators.
 
A CEO is just a figurehead?! :rolleyes:

The reason many of these CEO's are paid so well is because of the basic laws of supply and demand. There are some companies that are in such a precarious situation that it is all but impossible to pull out a profit and stay competitive. The people actually able to lead the company and make a profit in these situations are even fewer.

Put differently, the supply of effective leaders for these companies is less then the demand for such leaders. When supply is lower then demand, you pay a premium. These companies still feel it is economically effective to hire these CEOs even at the high reimbursement rate necessary to entice these people to take the job.

It is basic economics.

Demonizing CEO's doesn't explain anything and only muddies the waters. It is cheap, emotional rhetoric. Not a logical argument aimed at truth.

People are not so much defending the CEO's as the necessity of the system that leads those highly paid CEOs. Any system that doesn't allow that is tyrannical and oppressive.

In political discourse, economic literacy is what separates the adults from the adolescents.

Complain all you want about the "taxing job creators" argument, but it IS an argument and one rooted in economic reality. Any position that doesn't take the argument seriously only discredits itself...
 
A CEO is just a figurehead?! :rolleyes:

The reason many of these CEO's are paid so well is because of the basic laws of supply and demand. There are some companies that are in such a precarious situation that it is all but impossible to pull out a profit and stay competitive. The people actually able to lead the company and make a profit in these situations is are even fewer.

Put differently, the supply of of effective leaders for these companies is less then the demand for such leaders. When supply is lower then demand, you pay a premium. These companies still feel it is economically effective to hire these CEOs even at the high reimbursement rate necessary to entice these people to take the job.

It is basic economics.

Demonizing CEO's doesn't explain anything and only muddies the waters. It is cheap, emotional rhetoric. Not a logical argument aimed at truth.

People are not so much defending the CEO's as the necessity of the system that leads those highly paid CEOs. Any system that doesn't allow that is tyrannical and oppressive.

In political discourse, economic literacy is what separates the adults from the adolescents.

Complain all you want about the "taxing job creators" argument, but it IS an argument and one rooted in economic reality. Any position that doesn't take the argument seriously only discredits itself...
You've got people making billions who pay a lower tax rate than I do and whenever people even suggest taxing them a fair amount the right screams bloody murder about taxing "job creators". How exactly do hedge fund managers, speculators and other wallstreet scum create jobs? They basically exploit the system for their own benefit while driving up prices and leaving ruin in their wake.

Also what exactly can be done about the income disparity in this country? Soon we'll have like 1% wealthy people, 9% middle class and the rest will be the working poor. Basically you either get a college education or you're doomed to a life of being a poor laborer? Most entry level jobs have a $8-9 starting salary(which is hardly liveable) and have little to no chance advancement. You could work there for 20 years and you might make it to manager and be making like $20 per hour if you're lucky YAY:rolleyes: Personally I think it's time for a higher minimum wage at least. The minimum hasn't kept up with inflation or rising food/gas/etc prices.

You bring up supply and demand claiming that good CEO's are limited in supply while workers are numerous and I'll give you that point. That's why the workers need unity. They need to stand united and DEMAND a fair share of the pie. Everybody bashes unions, but I think we need more. They're practically the only way to get fair pay and benefits for labor anymore. The only way you'll be living decently off $9 per hour is living alone in a tiny apartment with no kids and no health problems.

Finally I'll bring up this point. You have bad CEO's and they still get their bonuses and golden parachutes while the workers are the ones who suffer. The company will be losing money(aka the CEO is failing at their job) and rather than take a cut to their $10 million salary they lay off a few hundred employees to reduce costs. Finally the incompetent CEO gets fired and even then they get their severance packages and get to go live a life of luxury. Why is there no accountability for CEO's? I'm cool with High Risk=High Reward. Right now it's more like Low Risk=Glorious Riches.
 
Some rockstar CEOs are paid what they deserve, through the market mechanism.
But there is a problem with the high CEO salaries, particularly the bonuses.
It speaks to wide cultural problem in business that is focused on short term profits. Rather than building a sustainable company that lasts into the future, one that you might leave as your legacy or to your children, you have CEO and boards that are brought that operate in a rather shortsighted way, one that generates a lot of money quickly, results in massive bonuses, but is unconcerned about the long term devastation.

There are some fundamental problems in the way corporations are set-up and run right now. We need to be careful to distinguish free-markets and capitalism with modern "corporate" culture because I don't think they are one in the same.

And by that, I don't mean a private corporation with 50 employees, I mean Fortune 500.

But the CEOs salary isn't causing anyone to be in poverty, however short term thinking has damaged the economy.
 
You've got people making billions who pay a lower tax rate than I do and whenever people even suggest taxing them a fair amount the right screams bloody murder about taxing "job creators".
What billionaire pays a lower tax rate on their INCOME than you?
Can you give an example? You can't, so this claim is simply untrue.

Now, you may be confusing people who generate income with people who have accumulated wealth and live off investments, but you're talking about CEOs in this thread, so that can't be the case.

How exactly do hedge fund managers, speculators and other wallstreet scum create jobs? They basically exploit the system for their own benefit while driving up prices and leaving ruin in their wake.
Actually, when the system is working properly, they create jobs because they facilitate the transfer of investment capital to start or expand businesses.

Also what exactly can be done about the income disparity in this country? Soon we'll have like 1% wealthy people, 9% middle class and the rest will be the working poor.
What does that even mean?
All of that "class" language was essentially lifted from Marx.
How could "middle" mean the first 90%?

Basically you either get a college education or you're doomed to a life of being a poor laborer?
First of all, a college education isn't worth crap. Right now, it might keep a few entry level doors from being closed on you, but that's about it. The traditional liberal arts college education is an absolute waste of money.

Most entry level jobs have a $8-9 starting salary(which is hardly liveable) and have little to no chance advancement.
First of all, "most" entry level jobs pay more than that.
But so what. Even if they did, how incompetent or shiftless do you have to be to stay at that salary permanently?

Personally I think it's time for a higher minimum wage at least. The minimum hasn't kept up with inflation or rising food/gas/etc prices.
And when you raise the salaries of everyone, what will happen to the cost of goods and services as a result?

If that entry level wage is raised, will more unskilled people be brought into the work force or less?

Here's an idea, why don't we just have the government give every person $1,000,000.00 in cash? Then we'd all be millionaires and we could buy whatever we wanted, right??

You bring up supply and demand claiming that good CEO's are limited in supply while workers are numerous and I'll give you that point. That's why the workers need unity. They need to stand united and DEMAND a fair share of the pie. Everybody bashes unions, but I think we need more. They're practically the only way to get fair pay and benefits for labor anymore. The only way you'll be living decently off $9 per hour is living alone in a tiny apartment with no kids and no health problems.
Who the hell is making $9/hr at their job except the most painfully uneducated and skilled individual?? Basic laborers make more than that!


Why is there no accountability for CEO's? I'm cool with High Risk=High Reward. Right now it's more like Low Risk=Glorious Riches.
The Golden Rule, he who has the gold, makes the rule.
But I think some of your point here is related to my previous point. There IS a harmful corporate culture that is focused on short term profits.

But you need to realize, these things don't last forever- unless government gets involved. These errors, this bad judgement, this lack of foresight, is unsustainable and the laws of economics and the laws of the markets WILL CORRECT IT. It's not immediate. It's not necessarily on your time table, but it does resolve the problem UNLESS government steps in and bails out these companies and props up the system.
 
You've got people making billions who pay a lower tax rate than I do

I always question that accuracy of these type statements. You can always cite a few examples of at least companies paying next to nothing in taxes, but can anyone prove this as systemic in the case of individuals and their taxes?

I imagine there is likely a lot of truth to the claim, but with a lack of proof it can come across as foolish to paint with such a broad brush.

and whenever people even suggest taxing them a fair amount the right screams bloody murder about taxing "job creators".

And what would be "fair" in your view?

Throwing that word around is rhetorically effective but meaningless and only serves to muddy the waters.

Let's look at the actual data from 2005 and see what is "fair". Keep in mind that the lower 47% of income earners pay no federal income taxes at all!

  • In 2005, the top 1% of income earners paid 39.38% of income tax revenue
  • In 2005, the top 5% of income earners paid 59.67% of income tax revenue
  • In 2005, the top 10% of income earners paid 70.30% of income tax revenue
  • In 2005, the top 25% of income earners paid 85.99% of income tax revenue
  • In 2005, the top 50% of income earners paid 96.93% of income tax revenue

Are these numbers "unfair"?

Should these earners be paying more?

Oh, these numbers were not based of "estimates" of what the highest incomes should have paid, these numbers are based of the actual returns (Bureau of Labor Statistics). Any and all "cheating" to avoid taxes is including in these numbers.

What is the purpose of taxes?

Is the purpose of taxes to punish individuals whom many are envious of? Is that what government policy is supposed to be?

The most politically effective totalitarian systems have gotten people to give up their own freedom in order to vent their resentment or hatred at other people -- under Communism, the capitalists; under Nazi, the Jews
-Thomas Sowell​

[hedge fund managers, speculators] basically exploit the system for their own benefit while driving up prices and leaving ruin in their wake.

Actually, We have discussed on this forum the role and function of speculators. It might be worth taking the time to understand that.

Also what exactly can be done about the income disparity in this country?

Relevance?

Simply because rhetoric garners outrages does not make it, in any way, logically relevant.

Soon we'll have like 1% wealthy people, 9% middle class and the rest will be the working poor.

Because the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer?

There is no empirical evidence that logically backs that up.

In fact that truth is the exact opposite; the rich tend to get richer while the poor get richer at a slower rate. The paper in the 1st post supports that.

They need to stand united and DEMAND a fair share of the pie.

If you want to run with the false analogy of the economy as a "pie", then you need to understand that when workers "unit" to "demand their fair share", the "pie" ALWAYS shrinks, in the long term. This means that those same workers lose jobs.

In fact, in the private sector, unions have a long history of driving workers out. This, again, is simple economics. I can hire more workers at a lower wage then I can at a higher wage.

Your "pie" analogy is false because of a fundamental fact that also undercuts your point about income disparity; Capitalism creates wealth. With capitalism, the "pie" grows! However, attempts to more "equally" divide the pie stop it from growing and, in more extreme cases, cause it to shrink.

In other words, the arguments about "income disparity" and a "fair share of the pie" falsely assume that the economy is a zero-sum game. Without a solid premise, there is no argument.
A zero-sum fallacy is a logical error committed by assuming that some quantity is constant when it is not.

Here is another great post on wealth creation and the zero-sum fallacy.

There is nothing more costly to our society then ignorance; economic ignorance perhaps more then others.

When demagogues get enough people to be led around by the nose through rhetorical agitation of their resentments, all of society suffers. Freedom is lost and economic opportunity is destroyed.
 
First of all, a college education isn't worth crap.

In fact, there is a higher education bubble growing that is analogous to the housing bubble and, potentially, a lot more devastating to society.
 
The fact is that all the hostility toward CEO's is irrelevant and nothing but misdirection on the part of demagogues. As Cal pointed out, "he CEO's salary isn't causing anyone to be in poverty".

It is worth considering the effect of lower pay for a CEO position in a free market. At lower, "fairer" pay, an incompetent CEO is all that can be afforded and the business goes under, causing ALL the workers to lose their jobs.

Of course, due to economic ignorance and emotion based thinking, far too many are gullible enough to fall for this cheap demagoguery.

It becomes a matter of faith and to challenge it is heresy.
 
Some rockstar CEOs are paid what they deserve, through the market mechanism.
But there is a problem with the high CEO salaries, particularly the bonuses.
It speaks to wide cultural problem in business that is focused on short term profits. Rather than building a sustainable company that lasts into the future, one that you might leave as your legacy or to your children, you have CEO and boards that are brought that operate in a rather shortsighted way, one that generates a lot of money quickly, results in massive bonuses, but is unconcerned about the long term devastation.

There are some fundamental problems in the way corporations are set-up and run right now. We need to be careful to distinguish free-markets and capitalism with modern "corporate" culture because I don't think they are one in the same.

And by that, I don't mean a private corporation with 50 employees, I mean Fortune 500.

But the CEOs salary isn't causing anyone to be in poverty, however short term thinking has damaged the economy.
It's the CEO's right to do whatever he wants with his company.

That said, maybe they wouldn't be as concerned about their golden parachutes if they weren't so uncertain about how and when the government was going to take everything they own away from them. The name of the game now is 'grab it and run.' And you can thank the tyrannical Fed for that.
 
It's the CEO's right to do whatever he wants with his company.

That said, maybe they wouldn't be as concerned about their golden parachutes if they weren't so uncertain about how and when the government was going to take everything they own away from them. The name of the game now is 'grab it and run.' And you can thank the tyrannical Fed for that.

It's certainly the right of any company to manage or mis-manage the company in anyway they see fit. In a free-market, there will be consequences for negative decisions, and the company will suffer loses. They either learn from the mistakes or they go out of business and sell their assets to other productive companies or the next great start up.

However, that gets distorted when the government is so powerful that it can step in and change the business environment so it artificially favors the company, or in the most bold scenarios, actually steps in and bails them out.

Those golden parachutes appear to be the result of not simply supply & demand, but a corporate culture. And by "corporate culture," I don't mean the small incorporated business, but the large traded firms in business and finance. There's a relationship between the board of directors, the CEO, and the way the companies are run for short term profits, and then bonus based upon stock values and quarterly changes.

Those bonus plans came about, initially, as a way to avoid the highest tax rates. The bonus structures also fueled a short sighted business philosophy as well. So it's another case of a government policy, in this case high taxes, resulting in an unintended consequence, they shifted pay into bonuses like stock options, and in doing so encouraged high risk, short term gain, business strategies.

Unfortunately, all of our economic problems need to correct themself, naturally. And that's going to be painful.
Worse yet, the Marxist types are all ready to exploit the pain by blaming capitalism for the problems that they created.
 
Look at me I'm a bigshot CEO. I'm basically just a figurehead and I've got the engineers, market analysts, managers and laborers doing all the real work while I sit in my office all day browsing porn. :p
I occasionally need to go to meetings where I give the go ahead decision on issues that are typically already explained and well thought out by my employees.

You forgot the people who thought up the idea and the salesmen without which there would be no product or service to sell.
Humorous but in reality in most companies the CEO runs the company like a conductor directing his orchestra.
Steve Jobs would be the best example.
He is the "Rainmaker"

If it is the business owner who provides the capital he may hire a professional general manager to run it and only participate in big decisions.
Driven smart creative people with only high school hiring people with degrees to make them money is nothing new.;)

Also the pie belongs to the owner who thought it up and created it and not the workers who made it.
For instance everything people working for Edison invented or thought up belonged to Edison while they remain unknown.
The workers don't take any of the risks and therefore don't own anything or a piece of the pie which is what using the word share of the pie implies.
It is up to the owner to decide how much of the revenues of the pie he will give away to his workers.
Apple doesn't pay it's Asian workers more(maybe only a little) because it's margins are delightfully high.
 
It's certainly the right of any company to manage or mis-manage the company in anyway they see fit. In a free-market, there will be consequences for negative decisions, and the company will suffer loses. They either learn from the mistakes or they go out of business and sell their assets to other productive companies or the next great start up.

However, that gets distorted when the government is so powerful that it can step in and change the business environment so it artificially favors the company, or in the most bold scenarios, actually steps in and bails them out.

Those golden parachutes appear to be the result of not simply supply & demand, but a corporate culture. And by "corporate culture," I don't mean the small incorporated business, but the large traded firms in business and finance. There's a relationship between the board of directors, the CEO, and the way the companies are run for short term profits, and then bonus based upon stock values and quarterly changes.

Those bonus plans came about, initially, as a way to avoid the highest tax rates. The bonus structures also fueled a short sighted business philosophy as well. So it's another case of a government policy, in this case high taxes, resulting in an unintended consequence, they shifted pay into bonuses like stock options, and in doing so encouraged high risk, short term gain, business strategies.

Unfortunately, all of our economic problems need to correct themself, naturally. And that's going to be painful.
Worse yet, the Marxist types are all ready to exploit the pain by blaming capitalism for the problems that they created.
Glad to see that you agree.
 
You forgot the people who thought up the idea and the salesmen without which there would be no product or service to sell.
Humorous but in reality in most companies the CEO runs the company like a conductor directing his orchestra.
Steve Jobs would be the best example.
He is the "Rainmaker"

If it is the business owner who provides the capital he may hire a professional general manager to run it and only participate in big decisions.
Driven smart creative people with only high school hiring people with degrees to make them money is nothing new.;)

Also the pie belongs to the owner who thought it up and created it and not the workers who made it.
For instance everything people working for Edison invented or thought up belonged to Edison while they remain unknown.
The workers don't take any of the risks and therefore don't own anything or a piece of the pie which is what using the word share of the pie implies.
It is up to the owner to decide how much of the revenues of the pie he will give away to his workers.
Apple doesn't pay it's Asian workers more(maybe only a little) because it's margins are delightfully high.
Without the workers nothing gets done to begin with. I'm not saying that good CEO's shouldn't be paid well. I'm simply stating that they should be a bit less greedy and give more back to the society that made them great in the first place. Outsourcing labor to Asia while laying off good hardworking people to "cut costs" counts as simply being a greedy scumbag IMO.

Also here's another point to consider. From my experience happier workers typically work harder and produce higher quality work. Unhappy workers simply don't give a shat, milk the timeclock and produce low quality work resulting in countless lost money. Lots of my coworkers are unhappy with their overall low wages and lack of advancement opportunities. As a result they do the absolute bare minimum probably only actually "working" 5-6 hours out of a their whole shift. They also do stuff that actually costs the company more money such as shipping items in boxes that are way to big for an item which could be shipped in a smaller box with a bit of effort. I've seen people cost the company hundreds of dollars daily in wasted shipping costs with their ineffective shipping and their general opinion is "whatever I don't get paid enough to care" and I can't really argue with that. Even if they put in the extra effort to save the company money it's not like they'd be getting any of it. The same applies to the people loading the trucks who simply kick/throw everything around sometimes breaking stuff.

Also I'm gathering a few other odd points from this thread.
1-Basic college degrees are increasingly meaningless.
2-If you get stuck in a $9 per hour entry level job it's because you're some kind of retarded redneck.

To that I'll say
What are people supposed to do then? Everyone doesn't simply start out rich enough to invest in or start their own company. It used to be that graduating from HS and going to some college would guarantee you a decent job. Not the case anymore. Most entry level jobs that I see pay anywhere from $8-12 per hour depending on the difficulty and shift with $9 being average. Also it doesn't matter how hard you work or how smart you are. In most of these jobs your chances at moving higher in the company are slim to nonexistent. You could work there for a decade or more and you "might" make it to supervisor. Awesome :cool: I know people who've been in my company for 4-5 years and they're still right where they were at shipping or receiving.
 
Without the workers nothing gets done to begin with. I'm not saying that good CEO's shouldn't be paid well. I'm simply stating that they should be a bit less greedy and give more back to the society that made them great in the first place. Outsourcing labor to Asia while laying off good hardworking people to "cut costs" counts as simply being a greedy scumbag IMO.
If the government would make America more friendly to business, companies wouldn't outsource to other countries as often.

'Giving back to society' is fine, but stealing from them and giving to those who don't produce is not the answer. This is supposed to be a free country, where you should be allowed to keep what you've earned by the sweat of your brow. That means nobody should be able to tell you what to do with your earnings, whether it's giving it back to society or spending it on a yacht. If someone doesn't like being a 'working stiff' as Obama calls us, they should be able to start their own business. Unfortunately, the government doesn't like people starting businesses, so it discourages the practice through excessive taxation and regulation.

Producing products and jobs IS giving back to society.

You need to recognize the real villain here - it isn't business. It's government.
 
You forgot the people who thought up the idea and the salesmen without which there would be no product or service to sell.

...or the people with the investment capital to allow the idea to become a product and/or service. Often these are the same people who also have the idea.

If it is their idea, their salesmanship and their money that created the business then it is their business to do with as they please. For any government to interfere with that fact is not only immoral but a threat to a prosperous.

Two of the biggest factors necessary for a prosperous society are the division of labor and property rights.

If governments abolish property rights, they destroy the very engine that created a prosperous society.
 
Producing products and jobs IS giving back to society.

You need to recognize the real villain here - it isn't business. It's government.
The problem comes when the only jobs they're producing are off in China or a limited amount of low paying warehouse type jobs here. If they paid a fair price for manufacturing in our country it would be fine. Outsourcing is what throws it out of whack because it's driven all of the decently paying "trained labor" jobs out of the country with nothing to replace them. All of the machinists, welders, metal workers, electronics assemblers, technicians and other jobs like that have largely been sent to Asia.

If the CEO gets rich while doing their best to keep the labor here that's fine. When they make a killing by cost cutting measures(outsourcing/layoffs) to raise the profit margin they start to look like greedy pigs. Of course we wouldn't even need government intervention if the public would simply quit being stupid and buying up all the cheap foreign crap. At my work we sell a mix of foreign and domestic products with the elite American Made products typically costing around 50% more than a chinese equivalent. IMO they're worth it because they're higher quality, have better guarantees and you get the satisfaction of knowing that you're helping your country rather than some communist Asian country. Despite that I've found that typically people buy about 5X more of the cheap Asian crap than the elite American products. Are Americans really that cheap? In countries like South Korea you'd basically be the neighborhood outcast if you bought an American car and parked it in front of your house. Here people buy the crappy hyundai's and think nothing of it.

Basically it goes like this. More Americans buying more American made products=More decent jobs here and more people with the money to buy the more expensive American products. As a result you'd end up with a much healthier economy with more movement of money between the population. Right now it goes something like this. People buy cheap chinese crap
-some of the money goes to the chinese sweatshops
-most goes to the CEO's and people managing the company
-A small percentage goes to warehouse and other distribution workers.
 
Without the workers nothing gets done to begin with.

Assuming the business model demands a workforce, the workers are a vital part of that. A business only undercuts that workforce at their own peril. If they fail to realize the importance of keeping the workforce content, they risk undercutting the productivity of their entire operation and going under. A business can not last if it undercut's it's workforce.

A prime example would be call centers; specifically for major cell phone providers. The business model of those cites are often only 5 years in length. They put unrealistic standards on the workforce on the phone. Doing so drives off the best employees, so the standard of employees gets lower and lower year after year. After a point, the cite can't get people to apply and can't take enough calls to maintain a profit so it goes under. There is a third party call center in my down going through this process right now.

The managers at these call centers are, therefore, vitally important. They are the ones who oversee that workforce and are able to push back against those impersonal and unrealistic standards. If you get a short sighted manager who only knows how to micromanage instead of lead, it is very dangerous to the business.

Back to the broader issue, a workforce is also only one input in production. It is not necessarily the most important, though it is often the most volatile.

I'm simply stating that they should be a bit less greedy and give more back to the society that made them great in the first place.

Wal-Mart does more for society then the Federal government.

Just look at Katrina, they were responding before the Federal government. They also were not hamstrung by red tape and political motivations like the government.

More broadly, Wal-Mart, provides jobs and increases the standard of living for countless millions, if not billions by lowering costs for conveniences that would otherwise be out of the financial reach for many (if not most) of society.

The same holds to for other businesses and their CEO's. Ford made the car accessible for more then just the masses. 35-40 years ago we could not have thought about having anything like a personal computer, let alone owning one that doubles as a wireless phone that we carry around in our pocket.

Can a company only "give back" by higher taxes and lower pay for it's CEOs? Again, the economy is not a zero-sum game.

Outsourcing labor to Asia while laying off good hardworking people to "cut costs" counts as simply being a greedy scumbag IMO.

It is primarily minimum wage laws, unions and taxes that have driven businesses out of the country.

Also, to a large part, this is an example of an exceedingly prosperous society and, once again, the division of labor.

What we are seeing with production jobs going overseas is not a loss of jobs here in America so much as a shifting workforce. Those same workers are moving into other areas. That is simply the way the economy works. Things are not static.

Also here's another point to consider. From my experience happier workers typically work harder and produce higher quality work. Unhappy workers simply don't give a shat, milk the timeclock and produce low quality work resulting in countless lost money.

Agreed.

This is why any business that undercuts it's employees does so at it's own peril.

The only way they can get away with this in perpetuity is government intervention creating barriers to entry in the market for potential competitors, state laws requiring workers to join unions, etc.

What are people supposed to do then?

You, again, seem to view things to static here. The economy right now is in a severe recession of the kind with haven't seen since at least the 1970's. There are no new jobs being created.

When the economy eventually turns around, there will be opportunities available. They may not be with the company one works for (the notion of staying with one company your whole life is bygone), but they will be there. There may be some risk involved.

Also, now is a great time to get an education. That may mean going to college, though one needs to be very careful about the major they choose because most are not readily marketable. Accounting is very lucrative. Another option (one I wish I had taken) is a technical school. A trade is much more valuable then a degree in music theory.

When someone takes the attitude that society owes them a job, or that they should be guaranteed a job, they never really amount to much and never accomplish much. Success requires risk. Making yourself invaluable to either a consumer base or an employer will get you places.

Just look at 04SCTLS. Even though he is a dirty Athiest ;), he is very successful at what he does. Without any college degree, he had a good idea and developed it into a growing business. He saw an opportunity and took it.

We live in an amazing society where risks like that are very often rewarded. It may not be in creating your own business either.

I have a good friend who works in industrial sales. While he is very successful at that, he is paid even more the the supervisor of his site and anyone else at that site because he has made himself invaluable to those above him and above his site supervisor. With him, it is hard to specifically categorize what it is that makes him so valuable. He is one of the most genuine, sincere people I have ever met. When many of his coworkers have personal issues the come to him and he is able to provide a new outlook and other assistance. In essence, he is such a benefit to the morale of that site that he is more valuable then simply as a salesman. Other salesmen are more effective because of him and the atmosphere he helps create. A good employer will see those type qualities and reward them.
 
Without the workers nothing gets done to begin with. I'm not saying that good CEO's shouldn't be paid well. I'm simply stating that they should be a bit less greedy and give more back to the society that made them great in the first place. Outsourcing labor to Asia while laying off good hardworking people to "cut costs" counts as simply being a greedy scumbag IMO.
Without challenging any of the assertions your making, when you say they shouldn't, who or what should enforce that "shouldn't" part?

I've seen people cost the company hundreds of dollars daily in wasted shipping costs with their ineffective shipping and their general opinion is "whatever I don't get paid enough to care" and I can't really argue with that.
Maybe this is why no one is paying them more then $9/hr?

Also I'm gathering a few other odd points from this thread.
1-Basic college degrees are increasingly meaningless.
2-If you get stuck in a $9 per hour entry level job it's because you're some kind of retarded redneck.
No, it has nothing to do with being a "retarded redneck," but it speaks to a lack of initiative. You may start at that wage, but if you show any initiative and learn a skill, you will quickly rise above that. And quickly is a relative term, this doesn't mean overnight, and it depends on the business.

The point is to go from unskilled to skilled labor. If you start out doing demolition on a job sight, buy a hammer and learn to do rough framing and interior work. But what's important is that you don't demonstrate the behavior and indifference displayed by those guys you mentioned on the shipping dock. Those guys are screw offs with no work ethic, and they don't deserve more than $9/hr.


To that I'll say
What are people supposed to do then? Everyone doesn't simply start out rich enough to invest in or start their own company. It used to be that graduating from HS and going to some college would guarantee you a decent job. Not the case anymore.
You're not going to find agreement on this, modern culture tells everyone that they need to go to college and then, magically, a white collar job will be available for them, producing nothing but paperwork. Those days are over.

My advice to everyone is to learn a trade or skill that is marketable. If you have to start out at $9/hr, fine. But if you're not the guy kicking the boxes off the deck, showing up on time, and not wasting the bosses money, you'll soon find yourself in positions of greater responsibility- and with responsibility comes more money.

To use construction- which is tough market right now- but if you start out digging the ditch, go get your CDL so you can also drive the truck. Buy a couple tools and be willing to learn so that someone will be willing to spend the time to make you an apprentice and teach you the skilled part of the trade.

If you're unloading trucks at a store, there is a maximum amount they are going to pay for that unskilled labor. So- you need to manage the guys unloading the truck. Or work on the floor too- if you're in retail, then you have to think of the retail industry, not the task of unloading the truck. Do you want to be a store/district/or regional manager?

It sounds like that people you are working with are unmotivated and have a sense of entitlement. Don't use them as your example and don't let their toxic attitudes ruin you. Frankly, consider it an opportunity, it can't be hard to stand out in a group of losers like that. Seek out responsibility and you'll usually be rewarded for it. Even if they don't, you can then take your expanded experience to another company and sell that for a premium.
 
(In)coherent has all the answers. Or, more properly, I should say that he and Marx have all the answers. Please don't try to confuse him with facts.

KS
 
If they paid a fair price for manufacturing in our country it would be fine.

Again, what is "fair"?

Any employee will think they are worth more then they are and very little will ever be "fair" in their eyes.

Outsourcing is what throws it out of whack because it's driven all of the decently paying "trained labor" jobs out of the country with nothing to replace them.

If there is a greater supply of works, some other business has a need and those workers end up filling it. When one door shuts, another opens. It is the way economies work.

When they make a killing by cost cutting measures(outsourcing/layoffs) to raise the profit margin they start to look like greedy pigs.

They only move overseas if the have to in order to maintain a profit, not "raise the profit margin". It takes a tremendous amount of capital and time to move a facility overseas.

Just think of the army experts that have to be paid in order to find out if it is feasible, to settle on a location, to lobby that government, etc. Then you typically have to build a new facility, hire workers and train them.

Also, how much down time in production will you incur while moving? What kind of money is that going to cost?

Of course we wouldn't even need government intervention if the public would simply quit being stupid and buying up all the cheap foreign crap.

The division of labor is a requirement for a prosperous society. The idea of "buying America" and a lot of the views that go along with that undercut the division of labor and hamstring a prosperous society. In fact, it was isolationist rhetoric that, when enacted into policy, plunged America and the world into the Great Depression.

Also, what is so sacred about production jobs?

Jobs sent overseas only leave more opportunities here. A job sent overseas is not a job lost in the US, in the long run.

More Americans buying more American made products=More decent jobs here and more people with the money to buy the more expensive American products. As a result you'd end up with a much healthier economy with more movement of money between the population. Right now it goes something like this. People buy cheap chinese crap
-some of the money goes to the chinese sweatshops
-most goes to the CEO's and people managing the company
-A small percentage goes to warehouse and other distribution workers.

You buy into the outsourcing myth way too easily. I already pointed to the Great Depression as a fallout from those myths given legislative strength.

Here is the great economist Thomas Sowell on outsourcing:
Does anyone seriously believe that, if we begin creating international trade restrictions to limit the outsourcing of American jobs, other countries will not pass similar restrictions on the outsourcing of their jobs to America?

Yes, we can stop some jobs of computer programmers from going overseas. But what if Japan, for example, restricts the outsourcing of jobs to the United States, and Americans working for Toyota and Honda start getting laid off? What about Americans working for other foreign-owned companies operating in the United States?​

Rallying against outsourcing is emotionally gratifying (and therefore politically effective) but it is not economically realistic. Just as certain jobs are outsources to other countries, certain jobs are outsourced from other countries to the United States. This is primarily due to the location theory of economics, among other things. Basically, if the cost of shipping the final product is more then shipping the various components, it makes more sense to build as close to the consumer as possible. Again, opportunities are created.

Dr. Sowell also talks about the Great Depression in that article:
Back during the Great Depression of the 1930s, when unemployment in the United States hit a high of 25 percent, one of the many foolish things the government did was create international trade restrictions designed to save American jobs. Other countries around the world created similar restrictions to save their own workers' jobs.

Net result: world trade in 1933 was one-third of what it had been in 1929, making everybody poorer and therefore less able to create jobs. Many economists have blamed these restrictions for making the depression worse and longer lasting.

Whether with international trade or anything else, the political temptation is always to do something that looks good right now, with no thought of its repercussions -- especially if those repercussions will not be noticeable before the next election.​
 

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