U.N. Mideast draft

Vitas said:
You quoted "Fossten", which neither he or you has been able to substantiate the comment, to date. go figure. -LOL-

Are you stubborn or just slow-witted?

Let me restate, are you honestly trying to use a Hamas spokesperson to authenticate your claim that Israel is an "occupier"

For the sake of discussion, don't quote anyone. Just explain when, how, and where Israel became an occupier. It shouldn't be difficult. The formal country only has a 70 year history.

The spokeperson for the political wing of a terrorist organization doesn't win you much credibility. Let's see- politician (low credibility) and terrorist (even low credibility)- and you use a passing comment to defend your flimsy ill-informed, delusional position?

Either try a little harder or just acknowledge your limitations. You're bold defiance and stubborn nature doesn't substitute for actually crafting an argument that can hold up to any scrutiny.

And one more time, what statement have any of us failed to support? That Israel is "not" something. Putting asides the fact we have addressed that claim of yours, wouldn't it make far more sense for you to prove the claim you made, rather than asking other people to prove the negative?

You are asserting that they ARE something (that they aren't.) Prove your point, without quoting the opinion of a terrorist spokeperson. Once you attempt this, then we can all resume deconstructing it and proving you wrong again.
 
Vitas said:
you leave me no choice but to flatten you. I will get around to it midweek, or are you in a rush?

Midweek is tomorrow. Same as Wednesday. If you're confused, call it hump day.

I am anxiously awaiting this 'flattening'.
:leghumper :bash:
 
MonsterMark said:
Midweek is tomorrow. Same as Wednesday. If you're confused, call it hump day.

I am anxiously awaiting this 'flattening'.
:leghumper :bash:

I accomplish things on my own time.
 
Vitas said:
Give me the word. Flatten, or not?

Take your best shot, big boy. I'll go get my hearing aid and my Vitas-to-English Dictionary.

By the way, you still haven't explained how Israel is an occupier, nor have you explained their deception. Your silence is deafening, as is the growing sound of your ignorance.
 
fossten said:
By the way, you still haven't explained how Israel is an occupier, nor have you explained their deception.

Actually, point in fact, you have not explained how Israel was NOT an occupier.

======================

5. Fossten, affirmed by Calabrio, summarily concludes by personal opinion that Israel did not occupy anyone, in 1967, without facts and links to support his opinion.

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html

8. Fossten’s and Calabrio’s position was put forth by Israel in the ‘70’s, and, to the best of my knowledge, was not accepted by anyone. For either of them to present their opinion as fact is sorely disingenuous and ludicrous.

9. If Calabrio or Fossten would like to prove their position, prove it. I think that it would be great if you could, but so far you have not proven anything, and have been proven wrong in your assertions.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?p=229003#post229003

======================

The 1967 War and the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza

Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?

“The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was ‘no threat of destruction’ but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could ‘exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.’...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: ‘In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.’“ Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

Was the 1967 war defenisve? — continued

“I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.” Yitzhak Rabin, Israel’s Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1967

======================


Present facts and links to support your propaganda. So far you have not been able to even dare try to attempt it, for obvious reasons.

======================

We will get to Fossten's modus operandi later.
 
Vitas said:
Actually, point in fact, you have not explained how Israel was NOT an occupier.

As much as I love to disagree to Fossten, you are asking him to prove a negative... That is sh!t debating. You accused Israel of wrong doing, you prove that they are in fact wrong.
 
95DevilleNS said:
As much as I love to disagree to Fossten, you are asking him to prove a negative... That is sh!t debating. You accused Israel of wrong doing, you prove that they are in fact wrong.

Thank you for the comment from the peanut gallery. -lol-

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html
======================

The 1967 War and the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza

Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?

“The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was ‘no threat of destruction’ but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could ‘exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.’...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: ‘In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.’“ Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

Was the 1967 war defenisve? — continued

“I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.” Yitzhak Rabin, Israel’s Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1967
 
Vitas said:
Thank you for the comment from the peanut gallery. -lol-

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html
======================

The 1967 War and the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza

Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?

“The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was ‘no threat of destruction’ but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could ‘exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.’...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: ‘In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.’“ Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

Was the 1967 war defenisve? — continued

“I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.” Yitzhak Rabin, Israel’s Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1967

Your welcome; if you like nuts, I have two special ones for you.

If I recall correctly (I've been gone), both Fossten and Calabrio slapped your face into the dirt point by point by miserable point, proving your accusations false.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Your welcome.

If I recall correctly (I've been gone), both Fossten and Calabrio slapped your face into the dirt point by point by miserable point, proving your accusations false.

Well, if you "think" that they have, point it out. So far they have been proven DEAD WRONG in their assertions. Point it out.
 
Vitas said:
Well, if you "think" that they have, point it out. So far they have been proven DEAD WRONG in their assertions. Point it out.

You want me to copy and paste what is already on the previous pages? Sounds redundant.
 
95DevilleNS said:
You want me to copy and paste what is already on the previous pages? Sounds redundant.

Go right ahead. YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PROVE NOTHING.
 
95DevilleNS said:
"Resistance is futile."

Locutus of Borg circa 2366 (stardate 43989.1)

Until anyone of you can prove otherwise, Israel occupied Palastine in 1967:

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?p=229003#post229003

======================

The 1967 War and the Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza

Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?

“The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was ‘no threat of destruction’ but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could ‘exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.’...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: ‘In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.’“ Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

Was the 1967 war defenisve? — continued

“I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.” Yitzhak Rabin, Israel’s Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1967
 
Vitas said:
Until anyone of you can prove otherwise, Isreal occupied Palastine in 1967:


You have convinced me Vitas; the first twenty times you posted your argument just didn't do it, but this last time, it finally sunk into my think head. I salute you! As an added bonus, your thread has made four pages; I salute you again.
 
This war has taught us that Israel must revise its military approach

The frontlines have disappeared in this new kind of conflict, and our old deterrent weapons are no longer enough

Shimon Peres
Monday September 4, 2006
The Guardian


In Lebanon we have experienced a new form of battle. Terrorist organisations are armed with a wide range of missiles and rockets that enable them to bypass frontlines and hit tanks, planes and concentrations of soldiers. This type of war is more ballistic in nature than territorial. It is driven more by a religious ideology than by nationalistic motivation, seeking to target populations wherever possible, even before trying to control territory. The line of division between the battle front and the home front is largely blurred.
This is a war fought in the media as well as on the ground. This battlefield is teeming with television lenses, whose image of the war is no less important than the war per se, making the struggle for legitimacy in the public's mind and the morale of one's own soldiers as central to the conflict as military success.

The terrorists do not confine themselves to political boundaries. They exist like parasites in countries that are not theirs, and turn into an army within an army, with the freedom to don army uniforms or take them off, as they please.

The arms that a country like Israel has at its disposal are not designed for wars of this nature. It would be senseless to use a plane or helicopter that has cost millions of dollars for the purpose of chasing a lone terrorist, or a small group of terrorists, at high risk. The homeland is also unprepared for this new kind of war. The population is concentrated in a limited area, constituting an easy target for missiles.

Just as it is hard to distinguish between the front and the homeland of the side under attack, it is also not so easy to see the distinction between a weak government and rogue aggressors in the territories from which the attacks are launched.

What are the lessons to be drawn from these changes? No deterrent weapon is everlasting. The form of deterrent must be in accordance with changes on the battlefield - David's slingshot was good for only one battle. Clearly, Israel must maintain defence forces in case it is attacked by traditional armies. Yet it must develop a strategic deterrent that rests on weapons and an organisational structure appropriate to this new era, in which terrorists are equipped with missiles and media.

A terrorist might be deterred by the knowledge that new surveillance tools have been developed that could identify him, even in a large crowd; that his weapon could be detected without his knowledge. This kind of deterrent could be based on miniaturised arms or on remote-control robots operating on the battlefield; perhaps even on a type of intelligence hitherto unknown, grounded in revolutionary nanotechnology.

Luckily, Israel already has an excellent group of hi-tech scientists capable of developing detection and defence devices that have the capacity to target the enemy individually and give personal protection. Fifty years ago I had the privilege of introducing new arms systems to the Israel Defence Forces that provided Israel with a powerful deterrent that is still valid. I am persuaded that it is possible to do this again, by means of innovative and daring technology, for the long term.

Furthermore, Israel should pursue a policy of population decentralisation, and support the legitimisation of one single authority in the whole of Lebanon - indeed in all countries of the region.

The Lebanese government and the Palestinian Authority have lost control of their territories and armed forces. They have stopped representing peace and security in the territories for which they are responsible. Israel must support the governments of Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, and Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, in their struggles for exclusive territorial and military control over their lands.

A war deterrent is supposed to prevent war. The goal is peace. Despite all the resentment in Israeli public opinion of Palestinian terrorism and terror emanating from Lebanon, attaining peace has not diminished as an objective.

In peace, as in war, the paths change even if the objective does not. The notion of trading territory for peace was successful in two instances - Egypt and Jordan. It failed in two other cases - Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority. We withdrew from Lebanon, in keeping with UN resolution 1559, but did not receive full peace in return. We unilaterally withdrew from all the areas of the Gaza Strip but, despite this move, attacks continued to be launched on Israel from that territory.

The deployment of UN troops in southern Lebanon (where Hizbullah had concentrated its forces) as a result of the new UN resolution has given rise to renewed hope that full peace will be achieved with Lebanon, which Siniora has publicly called for. Israel's response must be positive, public and unequivocal: yes to peace with Lebanon.

The failure to achieve peace with the Palestinians was not the result of ill will on the part of Israel, but of the lack of unity among the Palestinians. The Palestinians who wish for peace do not have the power to advance it. And the ones who do not want an agreement have the power to prevent it. As things stand today, policy will be replaced by tragedy.

The initiative to withdraw unilaterally from the West Bank has lost its attraction in the eyes of the Israeli public due to the aftereffects of withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. I cannot envisage a situation today in which the majority of Israelis will support such a withdrawal. We were prepared to enter into bilateral negotiations on the basis of the road map, but to date Hamas has prevented the Palestinian side from following through. Israel will continue proposing bilateral negotiations, despite Hamas's refusal.

An alternative could take the form of a partnership involving Israel, Jordan and the Palestinians, following an economic route rather than a political one. These three have already agreed to turn the whole border region between the Red Sea and the Jordan river into a joint economic peace corridor, along which industrial plants, tourism and agriculture will be developed. This approach has worked elsewhere; most of the important changes that have occurred around the globe since the end of the second world war have been the outcome not of military interventions but of economic advances.

The three entities that agreed on this initiative lack the necessary means to implement the plan. However, international funds that seek new markets and opportunities, despite the risks involved, tend to be attracted to regional development projects such as this. If we can privatise part of the economy, why not privatise part of peace?

Therefore we must propose to the Palestinians that we enter into political/ diplomatic negotiations on the only basis acceptable to the international community and to the Palestinians themselves - the extant road map - and at the same time remove the yoke of economic distress through the development triangle.

No longer is the adage "a people will reside alone" valid. There are no frontlines any more, in war or peace.

· Shimon Peres is the deputy prime minister of Israel

© 2006 Global Viewpoint Distributed by Tribune Media Services

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1864049,00.html
 
I guess the topic is over.
Vitas has succeeded in convincing himself that he was correct.

Well done.
 
Calabrio said:
I guess the topic is over.
Vitas has succeeded in convincing himself that he was correct.

Well done.

The appropriate thing to say at this point is that we are not done.
 
fossten said:
I'll take this one. Your challenge ignores history. Israel took territory in 1967 and in 1980 in response to unprovoked attacks on her nation. That's what happens in war. You get attacked, you fight back harder than your enemy, and you take his territory. There's nothing deceptive about that, and there is nothing but clear, incontrovertible evidence showing that Israel typically is the defender, not the attacker in all cases.

I challenge you to cite an example where Israel attacked another country in an unprovoked manner and then took territory in a deceptive fashion.

"I'll take this one."

Yes, you did.
 

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