U.N. Mideast draft

[fossten]

How long did it take for you to come up with that witty response? Most of us are able to keep the level of discussion above that pitiful level, perhaps that's asking too much of you?

Apparently, in your effort to be clever, you failed to read the rest of the reply. So rather than posting another provocation that only serves to make you look more foolish, try to post something that'll actually advance the discussion.

Vitas doesn't do that. It's very difficult to understand his point most of the time. I think he's from an alternate universe where they speak English, but it doesn't mean the same thing as our English.

 

[Calabrio]

Vitas doesn't do that. It's very difficult to understand his point most of the time. I think he's from an alternate universe where they speak English, but it doesn't mean the same thing as our English.

you mean like "zippy noodles?"

 

[fossten]

you mean like "zippy noodles?"

Zippy Noodles


1 pkg (12 oz) wide noodles
1/4 lb butter
1 cup coked, peeled tomatoes
1/2 tsp garlic salt
1/2 tsp ground black
1 tsp dried parsley
1/2 cup chopped green chile (fresh or canned)


1. Cook noodles according to package directions.


2. While noodles are cooking, melt butter in a small pan, chop tomatoes and add to pan.


3. Add garlic salt, pepper, parsley, and green chile.


4. Cook until noodles are done. Drain and put into a serving powl. Pour tomato mixture over noodles and toss lightly.


Serves 6

http://hometown.aol.com/nokkefae/nmrecipe2.html

 

[TheDude]

Vitas doesn't do that. It's very difficult to understand his point most of the time. I think he's from an alternate universe where they speak English, but it doesn't mean the same thing as our English.

That was an episode of the New Twilight Zone or New Outer Limits done in the late 80's or early 90's... A guy wakes up one morning and everyone around him is speaking in English but the wording is gibberish. I remember at the very end he picked up a children’s book which had a picture of a dog and it read as 'Sunday', the meaning was to imply that he had to relearn English in order to get by.

Ya, I know, irrelevant to the thread, but look how it digressed anyhow.

 

[fossten]

That was an episode of the New Twilight Zone or New Outer Limits done in the late 80's or early 90's... A guy wakes up one morning and everyone around him is speaking in English but the wording is gibberish. I remember at the very end he picked up a children’s book which had a picture of a dog and it read as 'Sunday', the meaning was to imply that he had to relearn English in order to get by.

Ya, I know, irrelevant to the thread, but look how it digressed anyhow.

That must have been a cool episode.

 

[Vitas]

Without wasting time getting in to all these extremely weak personal snippy comments directed at me, let us review:

1. I thought that it was important for a cease fire to be declared. Israel agrees with me.

"Fifteen casualties in one day proves what price we could pay if we do not try to make the most of the political move," Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said, referring to Israeli military casualties on Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060810/ts_nm/mideast_dc_97

2. I thought that it was important that negotiations proceed. Israel agrees with me.

(DAN GILLERMAN) said that whether the world would succeed in
defeating that threat depended on the resolve
demonstrated today. The way to avoid the crisis
between Israel and Lebanon had been clear:
implementation of the unconditional obligations set
out in resolutions 1559 and 1680, which had set out
issues for resolutions between Syria and Lebanon. The
clear path forward was by disarming and disbanding
Hizbollah and other militias, as well as by Lebanon’s
exercise of authority over all its territory. But the
will to implement such actions had been lacking,
leading the people of Israel and Lebanon to pay a
heavy price.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8808.doc.htm


3. I stated that “BOTH parties have been deceptive." This fact is easily evidenced by the fact that both parties have been beating each other’s brains out for the last 50+ years and have not been able to negotiate a successful lasting solution.

4. In a negotiation both parties will bring forth various issues. One obvious issue is the occupation of Arab lands since by Israel 1967. There are obvious issues which Israel should bring forth. I have been unable to comment on those issues so far because of the bad faith responses of Fossten, and then Calabrio. Given the nonsense in this thread by both, I am no longer willing to waste the effort.

5. Fossten, affirmed by Calabrio, summarily concludes by personal opinion that Israel did not occupy anyone, in 1967, without facts and links to support his opinion.

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html

8. Fossten’s and Calabrio’s position was put forth by Israel in the ‘70’s, and, to the best of my knowledge, was not accepted by anyone. For either of them to present their opinion as fact is sorely disingenuous and ludicrous.

9. If Calabrio or Fossten would like to prove their position, prove it. I think that it would be great if you could, but so far you have not proven anything, and have been proven wrong in your assertions.

 

[MonsterMark]

1. I thought that it was important for a cease fire to be declared. Israel agrees with me.

"Fifteen casualties in one day proves what price we could pay if we do not try to make the most of the political move," Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres said, referring to Israeli military casualties on Wednesday.

Israel's Prime Minister is wrong and will soon pay the price when hostilities resume and the Hezbollah are re-armed with bigger and badder weapons.

2. I thought that it was important that negotiations proceed. Israel agrees with me.

Huge mistake by Israel providing the time for Hezbollah to re-arm.

Rresolutions 1559 and 1680 will never be met and Hezbollah will not be disarmed.

3. I stated that “BOTH parties have been deceptive." This fact is easily evidenced by the fact that both parties have been beating each other’s brains out for the last 50+ years and have not been able to negotiate a successful lasting solution.

Show us where Israel has been deceptive.

4. In a negotiation both parties will bring forth various issues. One obvious issue is the occupation of Arab lands since by Israel 1967. There are obvious issues which Israel should bring forth. I have been unable to comment on those issues so far because of the bad faith responses of Fossten, and then Calabrio. Given the nonsense in this thread by both, I am no longer willing to waste the effort.

You have been beaten on the issue and now choose to use that lame excuse. Israel fought and won. To the winner go the spoils. Get over it. Israel has given back way, way more than they should have in the 1st place and it got them exactly nowhere.

5. Fossten, affirmed by Calabrio, summarily concludes by personal opinion that Israel did not occupy anyone, in 1967, without facts and links to support his opinion.

Parcing words. (see Clinton for what the definition of is...is.)

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

So why exactly was this war started again. Because big, bad Israel is occupying lands? You have no clue as to the history of that region.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

I guess we are occupying native American Indian land also. Gee, I guess every country in the world is occupying somebody else's land if you really think about it.

8. Fossten’s and Calabrio’s position was put forth by Israel in the ‘70’s, and, to the best of my knowledge, was not accepted by anyone. For either of them to present their opinion as fact is sorely disingenuous and ludicrous..

It is what it is. Israel earned that land thru conflict. Again, to the winner go the spoils.

 

[Vitas]

You have been beaten on the issue

-LOL-

Prove your baseless "opinion."

 

[Calabrio]

Every single one of your points has been refuted and supported.

There is nothing left to be said within the context of this thread. Unless someone more articulate or better educated than yourself decides to contribute something new to contradict anything stated, there is nothing more to ad.

The events that followed immediately after the "cease fire" have made it evident how wrong your position is. And the events of the coming weeks will, unfortunately, make it even more apparent.

Iran Scores in World War
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20060823-084117-7697r.htm

BERN, Switzerland. -- Those who gazed into their crystal balls at the end of the 20th century to get a glimpse of coming attractions missed the main event. Islam, whether in the form of young jihadis who live to die killing those who live to live in freedom, or conservative oil sheiks and emirs clinging to divine-right-of-kings privileges by heaping praise on Hezbollah guerrillas, dominates our fear of what the future may bring.

Perception is reality in most parts of the world but nowhere as much as in the Arab world and in the Muslim world beyond. Hezbollah ("Party of God"), listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S., is now seen as the clear victor over Israel, the Middle East's only democracy. For Israel to lose 116 soldiers is comparable to the U.S. losing 5,800 in 34 days of warfare (multiply by 50 to get the equivalent population ratio). So far, the U.S. has lost 2,600 in 3-1/2 years in Iraq).

To compound the strategic setback for Israel, the Olmert government failed to achieve any of its objectives. Hezbollah was not flushed out of the territory between Israel's northern border and the Litani River. It still has an Iran-supplied arsenal of some 10,000 hidden rockets after firing 150 a day into Israeli towns, villages and kibbutzim. And Hezbollah chief Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, 46, has achieved iconic status throughout the Middle East, bridging the Shi'ite-Sunni divide. Flushed with this victory, Iran has told the United States to take a hike and mind its own business about the mullahocracy's nuclear plans.

Israel also lost its trademark of military invincibility. Mobilized reservists complained to the media about faulty planning, poor equipment and haphazard resupply in food and water. Some parched Israeli soldiers took the water canteens from dead Hezbollah guerrillas. Worst of all, substandard intelligence failed to show the extent of Hezbollah's underground infrastructure just beyond the Israeli border. Reservists staged a protest in Jerusalem to demand the resignations of the prime minister, defense minister and chief of staff.

American neoconservatives, led by chief theoretician Richard Perle, now believe the Tony Blair
government in Britain and the Bush administration are chickening out of the world war that militant Islam has declared on Judeo-Christian civilization. "It is global in scope," Mr. Perle wrote in the British Sunday Telegraph, "from madrassas in Pakistan, to mosques in London, to 'charities' in America, to banks and boardrooms in the Middle East." In this perspective, Hezbollah's victory against the mighty Israeli Defense Force was a battle lost in the new world war.

For Mr. Perle and the neo-cons, it is a war with a cultural and ideological component "lavishly financed by easy oil money from states like Saudi Arabia that we have long (and foolishly) regarded as 'moderates' and 'friends.' The warriors in this jihad are identified, indoctrinated and recruited by men who manipulate the power of faith to induce a fanaticism whose ultimate expression is the martyrdom of suicide missions. Among them are clerics who have rewarded their welcome into our liberal, open societies by preaching our destruction."

So far Mr. Perle is right with one major error. Saudi Arabia has taken drastic measures to rein in clerical fanatics. Almost 1,000 imams were read the riot act by the royals and warned transgressions would turf them out of their mosques. Pakistan, however, remains a major problem. Flat-Earth clerics continue spewing anti-Western venom and some 12,000 madrassas continue churning out male teenagers who can recite the Koran verbatim, but still liberally sprinkled with hate-filled ideas about the U.S., Israel and India.

Mr. Perle also says in both the United Kingdom and the United States "we have been reluctant -- dangerously so -- to restrict, and in many cases even to monitor, what is said in mosques and social centers of Islamist extremists." That was once the case, but no longer. The only impediment for the FBI and Britain's MI5 has been a shortage of Arabic-speaking undercover agents.

It was the painstaking work of MI5 agents who tracked two dozen British Muslims, almost all of Pakistani origin, which foiled the plot to down 10 U.S. airliners on the same day while flying from London to U.S. cities -- a terrorist tsunami that would have changed the world beyond recognition.

British authorities believe as many as 3,000 veterans of al Qaeda's training camps over the years were born or raised in Britain. U.K. polling data showed almost 200,000 British Muslims approved the July 7, 2005, subway and bus terrorist attacks. A quarter of Britain's 1.8 million Muslims -- or some 450,000 people -- are sympathetic to violent jihad (holy war). A third, or 600,000, said they would rather live under Shariah, or Islamic law, than British law. And an overwhelming majority is convinced the war on terror is a war on Islam.

Disillusioned Muslim youngsters are increasingly attached to the global Muslim community via the Internet -- and are angry at what they consider the anti-Muslim policies of the local government where they live. The estimated 5,000 pro-al Qaeda Web sites include recipes for mixing nail polish remover and hair bleach and detonating the explosive cocktail with the flash unit from a throwaway camera.

The world of on-line jihadism is not something imaginary, theoretical or conceptual -- it is real and it is here. The virtual caliphate's many visionaries, participants and supporters toil toward the day when the removal of secular leaders in North Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia, transforms the electronic caliphate into political reality.

Richard Perle, a former chief executive of Conrad Black's Hollinger Digital company, should know this is where a world war is under way. And the Bush administration should know democracy in Arab countries hastens the advent of what it wishes to avoid. Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon are exhibits A and B.

Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International.

 

[fossten]

Just one example for you, Vitas:

5. Fossten, affirmed by Calabrio, summarily concludes by personal opinion that Israel did not occupy anyone, in 1967, without facts and links to support his opinion.

6. The conclusion that Israel did not occupy anyone is simply not supported by the overwhelming evidence, interpreted by the International Court of Justice and the United Nations, and others. To the best of my knowledge the USA has never recognized Israel’s occupation of lands since 1967.

7. The dictionary description as of this day of Israel is:

"In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula."

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/I0257400.html

This absolutely proves to me that English is your second, maybe third, language.

I'll take this one. Your challenge ignores history. Israel took territory in 1967 and in 1980 in response to unprovoked attacks on her nation. That's what happens in war. You get attacked, you fight back harder than your enemy, and you take his territory. There's nothing deceptive about that, and there is nothing but clear, incontrovertible evidence showing that Israel typically is the defender, not the attacker in all cases.

Your post is filled with untruths, misunderstandings, and misquotes. If you're going to debate, you should quote people instead of falsely misrepresenting their words. It's too easy to refute you when you make such sophomoric mistakes.

 

[Vitas]

Just one example for you, Vitas:



This absolutely proves to me that English is your second, maybe third, language.


Your post is filled with untruths, misunderstandings, and misquotes. If you're going to debate, you should quote people instead of falsely misrepresenting their words. It's too easy to refute you when you make such sophomoric mistakes.

Now that you continue with your atypical name calling and personal attacks, you leave me no choice but to flatten you. I will get around to it midweek, or are you in a rush?

 

[fossten]

Now that you continue with your atypical name calling and personal attacks, you leave me no choice but to flatten you. I will get around to it midweek, or are you in a rush?

Um...ok, but first you have to show me which name I called you. Or is that part of the language barrier as well?

And if it's atypical, that would mean that I normally don't do it. If that's what you meant, then you would seem to be overreacting. Otherwise, why would you call attention to the fact that it's atypical? Or does that word not mean the same in 'your' version of English either?

Furthermore...

Who in America says "midweek"? That sounds like somebody from the UK or Europe.

People around here (the good ol' USA) say "Wednesday." Are you even from this country?

 

[Calabrio]

Now that you continue with your atypical name calling and personal attacks, you leave me no choice but to flatten you. I will get around to it midweek, or are you in a rush?

(whistle) Hey- over here.
Rather than crying about some comment made by Fossten, perhaps you could have attempted to address my response. I know it's a little harder than crying "victim" but it might be entertaining to read.

This is the reason why I think all of us need to be a little more vigalent about preventing anything that can resemble personal attacks. Because it's gives people like Vitas a weasle-way out of responding to the content of the argument.

But I do look forward to the rhetorical "flattening." Using history as the judge, this grand flattening might take an entire two paragraphs to challenge, dispute, and make evident how flawed and unsupported it is.

 

[MonsterMark]

Who in America says "midweek"? That sounds like somebody from the UK or Europe.

People around here (the good ol' USA) say "Wednesday."

HUMP DAY works for me!

 

[fossten]

This is the reason why I think all of us need to be a little more vigalent about preventing anything that can resemble personal attacks. Because it's gives people like Vitas a weasle-way out of responding to the content of the argument.

Barry and Vitas and Phil and all the other wackos on this site don't need ways to weasel out of responding to the content of any argument, in case you didn't notice. I've been posting here since last spring, and I can tell you that they haven't yet responded to a single argument in a standard debating manner without name-calling or dodging.

 

[Vitas]

Observers proposed for Israel-Gaza area

Posted 8/28/2006 8:29 AM ET

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The U.S. is proposing deploying international observers at the main cargo crossing between Israel and Gaza to prevent repeated security closures of Gaza's economic lifeline, a Palestinian negotiator said Monday.
The Palestinians support the idea, and Israel is studying it, officials said.

The Karni crossing has been closed by Israel for long stretches this year following security alerts and attacks by Palestinian militants. Virtually all of Gaza's imports and exports go through Karni.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the proposal to deploy international observers on the Palestinian side of the crossing came from Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, the U.S. security coordinator in the West Bank and Gaza. The plan also calls for the training of Palestinian security officials and building a new terminal at Karni, Erekat said.

The Israeli daily Haaretz said 90 international observers would be deployed on the Palestinian side of Karni. The U.S. Embassy declined immediate comment.

Erekat said the proposal has been approved by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and now awaits Israeli approval. Israeli officials said they were studying the idea.

Also Monday, four Palestinians were killed near Gaza City. Palestinian security officials said the four were manning roadblocks in the area when they were hit by an Israeli missile fired from the air. The Israeli military said Israeli soldiers operating in the area killed three Palestinians in a firefight, but did not know of a fourth man killed.

Two of the dead were from Hamas and two from the presidential guards linked to President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, Palestinian security officials said.

In southern Gaza, Hamas gunmen shot a motorist who refused to stop at a roadblock, witnesses said. The gunmen said they came under fire from the approaching car and returned fire. The identity of the dead man was not immediately known.

However, there have been growing tensions between Hamas and Abbas' rival Fatah movement in recent months, with gunmen from both groups often engaging in street clashes.

The growing chaos and lawlessness in Gaza prompted an unusually frank comment by the spokesman of the Hamas government, Ghazi Hamad, who wrote that the Palestinians have bungled the aftermath of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and should stop blaming Israel for all their woes.

The article, a rare case of self-criticism, was published in Palestinian newspapers Monday. Hamad said it expressed his personal opinion and did not represent the position of the government.

Hamad urged Palestinians to look beyond the conflict with Israel in searching for the causes of internal violence and lawlessness sweeping through the Gaza Strip.

"I am not interested in discussing the ugliness and brutality of the occupation because it is not a secret. Instead, I prefer self-criticism and self-evaluation," Hamad wrote.

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza last year, after 38 years of occupation, had raised hopes the Palestinians would rebuild the impoverished coastal strip as the first step toward gaining full independence in Gaza and the West Bank.

However, rival Palestinian factions have been locked in a violent power struggle, and fighting with Israel has continued.

"Our extreme joy at their departure made us forget the most important question: What is our next step?" Hamad wrote. "We heard that a promising future was waiting for us and for Gaza — and so we were optimistic that the blood of our martyrs and injured and the suffering of the entire country hadn't been in vain."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-08-28-gaza-observers_x.htm?csp=34

 

[Vitas]

Here you go, Fossten, Calabrio, and Monster Mark, facts and links please:

"I am not interested in discussing the ugliness and brutality of the occupation because it is not a secret. Instead, I prefer self-criticism and self-evaluation," Hamad wrote.

 

[Vitas]

People around here (the good ol' USA) say "Wednesday." Are you even from this country?

Now, why would that make a difference? Please explain.

 

[rmac694203]

Barry and Vitas and Phil and all the other wackos ...

And I thought you and your hardcore RW Bush or Die buddies were the wackos. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Either way, everyone does the same thing. Someone posts an article, then someone says the source is crap. Someone calls someone else a name, and then the other person cries, etc. etc. And I'm not excluding myself, although I don't post as often and therefore would be mathematically less likely to have "wacko-worthy" posts.
In the end, it's all in good fun and is a way to unwind and support debate. I think it gets taken too seriously way too often.

 

[Vitas]

And I thought you and your hardcore RW Bush or Die buddies were the wackos. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Either way, everyone does the same thing. Someone posts an article, then someone says the source is crap. Someone calls someone else a name, and then the other person cries, etc. etc. And I'm not excluding myself, although I don't post as often and therefore would be mathematically less likely to have "wacko-worthy" posts.
In the end, it's all in good fun and is a way to unwind and support debate. I think it gets taken too seriously way too often.

Either way, you will laugh at the outcome.

 

[Vitas]

Barry and Vitas and Phil and all the other wackos on this site don't need ways to weasel out of responding to the content of any argument, in case you didn't notice.

There is a point where I make you stupid, or Israel. Which do you prefer?

 

[Vitas]

Barry and Vitas and Phil and all the other wackos on this site don't need ways to weasel out of responding to the content of any argument, in case you didn't notice. I've been posting here since last spring, and I can tell you that they haven't yet responded to a single argument in a standard debating manner without name-calling or dodging.

You still, to this moment have not explained "occupation."

Perhaps you will explain to those of us who know, what "occupation" is.

 

[Calabrio]

Here you go, Fossten, Calabrio, and Monster Mark, facts and links please:

"I am not interested in discussing the ugliness and brutality of the occupation because it is not a secret. Instead, I prefer self-criticism and self-evaluation," Hamad wrote.

..You quoted Ghazi Hamad, the spokes person from Hamas, to support your argument?

 

[Vitas]

..You quoted Ghazi Hamad, the spokes person from Hamas, to support your argument?

It looks like he said it.

 

[Vitas]

..You quoted Ghazi Hamad, the spokes person from Hamas, to support your argument?

You quoted "Fossten", which neither he or you has been able to substantiate the comment, to date. go figure. -LOL-