TSA strip searching children

topher5150

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The controversy over 'invasive' pat-downs by Transport Security Administration officials at airports deepened today after footage of a small child being searched was placed online.

More than 650,000 have watched the 39-second clip in which the youngster can be seen shirtless and surrounded by burly TSA officers who carry out the search.

One officer examines the child's shirt before touching his lower body during the search as his helpless father watches at Salt Lake City International Airport.

Outraged passengers watch the shocking search with one asking: 'Are they arresting a kid?'

Another is heard to say: 'This is ridiculous.'

in another shocking incident, a passenger subjected to the search at Detroit Metropolitan Airport was left covered in urine after a urostomy bag was broken.

Thomas Sawyer, 61, said he was left humiliated and in tears by the incident.

The footage of the boy's search was posted on YouTube before the head of the TSA said searches would continue throughout the Thanksgiving holiday period.

STA chief John Pistole admitted that the procedure was necessarily thorough, saying: 'Clearly, it's invasive; it's not comfortable.'

But he said the hands-on approach would remain in place over a security-sensitive holiday season.

On CNN's State of the Union With Candy Crowley show today, Mr Pistole said the TSA was trying to strike the right balance between privacy and security to protect the nation from potential terrorist attacks, such as the failed one last Christmas by a man who had explosives hidden in his underwear.

Revealing that the agency would not bow to increasing public outcry, he said: 'No, we're not changing the policies … because of the risks that have been identified.

'We know through intelligence that there are determined people, terrorists who are trying to kill not only Americans but innocent people around the world.'

Mr Pistole's comments come as even the U.S. Secretary of State has called the pat-down procedure 'offensive'.

Hillary Clinton called for officials to make the new airport security measures less intrusive.


Speaking on CBS’ Face The Nation and NBC’s Meet The Press, Mrs Clinton said she recognized the need for tighter security but said there was a need to ‘strike the right balance’ and ‘get it better and less intrusive and more precise’.

When asked if she would submit to a pat-down, she replied ‘Not if I could avoid it. No. I mean, who would?’

Mrs Clinton added she understood ‘how offensive it must be’ for passengers forced to endure the measures.

It has emerged that passengers who refuse to submit to the scans and pat-downs could face a fine of up to $11,000 and arrest.

The TSA is also warning that anyone who refuses to undergo the method of inspection will not be allowed to fly, nor will they be permitted to simply leave the airport.

Instead, passengers will face questioning by the TSA and possibly local police.

A TSA spokesman told the Sun Sentinel: ‘Once a person submits to the screening process, they can not just decide to leave that process.’

He said that, if that was the case, terrorists could try time and again to breach security - opting out each time until they were successful.

He added that passengers who did refuse would be questioned ‘until it is determined that they don’t pose a threat’ to the public.

The searches are causing huge waits for passengers at airports across the country, with one YouTube user posting footage of seemingly endless lines at a Chicago airport.

Amid the growing furor that the pat-downs are over the top, President Barack Obama has defended the procedures, but admitted he does not have to submit to them himself.

Speaking at a NATO summit in Lisbon he said he understood the frustrations of passengers, adding he had asked security officials if there is a less intrusive approach.

Mr Obama said security officials had assured him that the current procedures are the only ones considered effective enough at the moment to guard against terrorist threats.

Pilots have been excluded from the scans and pat-downs – although they will have to pass through metal detectors at airport checkpoints and present photo IDs that prove their identity.

The victory for pilots followed a two-year lobbying campaign by their union leaders that reached a fever pitch in the past two weeks.

But, just days before the hectic Thanksgiving holiday travel period, Transportation Security Administration chief John Pistole offered little hope of a similar reprieve for regular passengers, who are complaining loudly about the new measures.

The TSA agreed yesterday to let uniformed airline pilots skip the body scans and aggressive pat-downs at the heart of a national uproar.

Their bid was boosted by hero pilot Chesley Sullenberger, who said pilots should be treated as 'trusted partners' in the fight against terrorism.

The complaints of pilots like Sullenberger, who successfully landed a passenger jet in the Hudson River in January 2009, gave weight to the movement to roll back the new procedures.

With pilots apparently satisfied, the TSA's most prominent critic may be a California software engineer who recorded himself threatening a TSA inspector, 'If you touch my junk, I'll have you arrested.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ty-pat-downs-NOT-going-away-Thanksgiving.html
 
Dear American subjects,

You are too stupid to protect yourselves. Submit for your own good. We will protect you.

Yours,

Liberal overlords
 
Thank you Cal - It is the problem with videos like this - there isn't a reporter who actually then stops and asks questions of the father, TSA agent, etc. Getting a whole story, instead of just a snippet. It isn't reporting the news - however it is now being accepted as a complete story.
 
however it is now being accepted as a complete story.

Yeah, it makes you long for the days of responsible "journalism" like Tailhook, the Bush National Guard story, ect.

And you might note, the story I posted that actually researched the story and reported on it in full context was the one owned by Glenn Beck.
 
Thank you Cal - It is the problem with videos like this - there isn't a reporter who actually then stops and asks questions of the father, TSA agent, etc. Getting a whole story, instead of just a snippet. It isn't reporting the news - however it is now being accepted as a complete story.
You mean like the part of the story where Deepak Chopra (Obama buddy and contributor) and Michael Chertoff (former DHS) are both being paid by the company that manufactures the backscatter machines?

Yeah, I wish they'd report that. :rolleyes:
 
Is seeing only one tiny part of the story OK then - Is it OK if it shows your side... But, if it only shows the opposing side - then we want full disclosure.

I think this story shows very well the pluses and minus of the 'cell phone video feed' way we are going to get the news - just like 'real news' you need to be skeptical and not take everything at face value. Wait - let the story play out - However, will the fact that this story wasn't all it appeared, really make an impact? Probably not. The 15 minutes of interest has lapsed - and we are already on to the next 'big thing'.
 
I wonder how long airline companies will stand for these extra "security" measures if their bookings dropped by 50% or more.

Then again... they might just get a bail-out and never complain.

We might find out. I would love for there to be an option for airlines that you could just get on the plane - who cares if you have an AK47 or 20 lbs of plastic on you... But, there would be full disclosure to the passengers that this plane is totally unregulated.

Do you think that airline would last very long?

And what happens when it goes down over a large population center?
 
Is seeing only one tiny part of the story OK then - Is it OK if it shows your side... But, if it only shows the opposing side - then we want full disclosure.
Did some one make that argument? Did I miss that post?
Who was it that advocate that only incomplete stories be reported lacking context which results in misleading the consumer? I keep reviewing the thread, but I don't see that.

Since it's not there, why did you just say that?
Why would you intentionally frame things in such a misleading way?

I think this story shows very well the pluses and minus of the 'cell phone video feed' way we are going to get the news - just like 'real news' you need to be skeptical and not take everything at face value.
If it were up to the MSM, many important stories that were captured on personal video would NEVER have been reported. Even after they went viral or circulated through alternative media, the MSM has only begrudgingly reported on the events.

Ultimately, what's best is for RESPONSIBLE JOURNALISTS, such as Jonathon Seidl, the assistant editor at The Blaze to do their job and provide that much needed context. Basically, to actually do their jobs.

Wait - let the story play out - However, will the fact that this story wasn't all it appeared, really make an impact? Probably not. The 15 minutes of interest has lapsed - and we are already on to the next 'big thing'
No, we're still on the issue of TSA policy and the story will only intensify throughout the holiday season. Most people rarely fly. Most people aren't affected by TSA policy...

Most people do have an apathetic streak and don't care about these things until it affects them. As I said, most people don't fly- EXCEPT this time a year. In November and December, virtually everyone knows someone close to them that is going to have to board an airplane for the holidays. NOW the story hits close to home. They don't want to endure any indignity, or worse yet, they don't want their wife/daughter/mother/children to have to endure it.

But lets go back to your basic point.
Is there a downside when news and video goes viral without the full context. Sure there is. But, that is offset by the tremendous advantages associated with eliminating the monopoly on information that the institutional journalists have held, and abused.
 
We might find out. I would love for there to be an option for airlines that you could just get on the plane - who cares if you have an AK47 or 20 lbs of plastic on you... But, there would be full disclosure to the passengers that this plane is totally unregulated.
Because the other idiotic, dishonest, strawmen arguments you've been trying to 'cleverly' make this afternoon weren't transparent enough, you felt the need to do this.

If we're not under the strict control of the state, OBVIOUSLY, in foxpaws world, we'll all just be completely out of control morons. Sure, you can transport 20lbs of plastic explosives in this jet liner flying over NYC... because if Big Sis didn't tell us not too, we're all so stupid we'd permit complete anarchy!

Sadly, this moronic, condescending view of the individual isn't limited to just airline security in foxpaws world, it extends into everything we do.

From the seatbelts we are forced to wear, to the fact that Cheerios has to change it's packaging for fear that people will think it's a medical drug. You and I are far too stupid, only the political elite have the ability to make the decisions in our lives.

Here's the reality-
no one wants to be a victim and we will naturally make decisions based on protecting ourselves and our families.
Unfortunately, you can CONDITION people to completely abdicate this responsibility and turn it over to someone, or something else- like the government. It is only then that you truly have a dangerous world.
 
Did some one make that argument? Did I miss that post?
Who was it that advocate that only incomplete stories be reported lacking context which results in misleading the consumer? I keep reviewing the thread, but I don't see that.

Since it's not there, why did you just say that?
Why would you intentionally frame things in such a misleading way?

I was mirroring Foss - sorry if you didn't see that...

No, we're still on the issue of TSA policy and the story will only intensify throughout the holiday season. Most people rarely fly. Most people aren't affected by TSA policy...

Most people do have an apathetic streak and don't care about these things until it affects them. As I said, most people don't fly- EXCEPT this time a year. In November and December, virtually everyone knows someone close to them that is going to have to board an airplane for the holidays. NOW the story hits close to home. They don't want to endure any indignity, or worse yet, they don't want their wife/daughter/mother/children to have to endure it.

But, they don't have to fly Cal - how do you get around this little fact. You fly - you play by the rules, or you drive over the river and through the woods... at the posted speed limit, and with your lights on if you are traveling at night... ;)

You still haven't answered that whole argument - flying isn't a right -

But lets go back to your basic point.
Is there a downside when news and video goes viral without the full context. Sure there is. But, that is offset by the tremendous advantages associated with eliminating the monopoly on information that the institutional journalists have held, and abused.

So, you see the 'advantages' of this type of reporting outweigh the 'risks' Cal? Isn't getting bad information still bad information whether it be from a private citizen or from MSM? And although, I will concur that the penalties weren't all that meaningful, there was some accountability with journalists - there isn't going to be any from this cell phone video poster.

My point is that you need to weigh all information - and this type of information, 'viral video on the internet' shouldn't be taken as news at all, until the facts can actually be sorted out. However, we seem to be taken in as somehow 'everyman' posted video feed must be the 'honest truth'. It often isn't.

You seem to be more likely to believe this than MSM Cal. I am just saying weigh it all, and wait... knee jerk reactions are almost always the worse.
 
Is seeing only one tiny part of the story OK then - Is it OK if it shows your side... But, if it only shows the opposing side - then we want full disclosure.

I think this story shows very well the pluses and minus of the 'cell phone video feed' way we are going to get the news - just like 'real news' you need to be skeptical and not take everything at face value. Wait - let the story play out - However, will the fact that this story wasn't all it appeared, really make an impact? Probably not. The 15 minutes of interest has lapsed - and we are already on to the next 'big thing'.
You wish - the TSA scandal will be a big issue for a while. Nice try, thanks for playing 'These aren't the droids you're looking for. He can go on about his business.' :rolleyes:
 
I was mirroring Foss - sorry if you didn't see that...



But, they don't have to fly Cal - how do you get around this little fact. You fly - you play by the rules, or you drive over the river and through the woods... at the posted speed limit, and with your lights on if you are traveling at night... ;)

You still haven't answered that whole argument - flying isn't a right -
YOu still haven't answered this argument - that the TSA's policies haven't stopped one terrorist...;):rolleyes:
 
From the seatbelts we are forced to wear, to the fact that Cheerios has to change it's packaging for fear that people will think it's a medical drug. You and I are far too stupid, only the political elite have the ability to make the decisions in our lives.

And so cal - you are willing to take responsibility for all your actions - and will be pleased to let all this ride on that - is that what you are saying. My decisions are mine, period.

I decided not to wear a seatbelt - fine - my decision. I hit a semi doing 45 mph, not fast enough to kill me, but fast enough to damage me for the rest of my life. My insurance will run out in 3 years - then the state takes care of me for the remaining 40 years of my life. You are OK with that. Or, since my insurance runs out in 3 years - I am left to die, the state has no responsibility to take care of the indigent, of which I am at that point.

You pay, or you allow me to die. Or, you hopefully avoid the big cost of those decisions, and go with the small cost of seatbelt usage.

Here's the reality-
no one wants to be a victim and we will naturally make decisions based on protecting ourselves and our families.
Unfortunately, you can CONDITION people to completely abdicate this responsibility and turn it over to someone, or something else- like the government. It is only then that you truly have a dangerous world.

No Cal - here is the reality - your decisions affect those far removed from your family and yourself. We live in a complex society. Mankind has been handing over responsibility for protection since we have had loosely based societies that didn't include just family members. The clan's men went out hunting - leaving the women, children, and old behind. So - a couple of men were left behind to protect them.

Today - we have police that protect us, soldiers that protect us, a large variety of structured organizations that protect us. You want to wear a tag that says 'Only protect me in these cases...' It isn't feasible in a large society Cal.
 
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but I actually laughed at the TSA's brainless idiot:

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/

As far as how we know if the TSA has or has not stopped any terrorists... I'm willing to bet that if they had indeed knowingly stopped a terrorist, they'd be patting themselves on the back to every media outlet that was willing to listen.

Now, various US intelligence agencies have actually stopped terrorists on US soil (post 9/11), and those actions never made the news. In some cases, not even a footnote. Of course, every now and then, even they have to justify their jobs and let out a story about a nice big "catch".
 
But, they don't have to fly Cal - how do you get around this little fact
No you don't.

We're not arguing whether or not airlines have a right to make your travel experience unpleasant or not. This is about what is sensible, what is effective, and what role the federal government should play in it.

Perhaps you chose to forget this point, but the TSA isn't a private company. The policies that they enforce aren't shaped by the airlines, they come from the Department of Homeland Securty, Big Sis and the Executive branch of government.

You fly - you play by the rules
If your point here was to have any weight, that would mean that people were advocating others simply run around and bypass the security.

No one is advocating that. However, a public debate on POLICY is entirely appropriate.

You still haven't answered that whole argument - flying isn't a right -
No, but we do have other rights that must be respected while engaged in a voluntary activity. And we are supposed to have freedom of movement. And these searches are being performed by the federal government, not private citizens. So you're really getting into the dark, murky realm of government encroachment.

If the private (for lack of a better term considering they are airlines) airlines wanted to impose invasive security screenings, that is different than gov't policy mandating them. In that case, I could simply chose another carrier.

And, if there is no push back- will we have these same measures before entering the D.C. metro or the NYC subway? Will I need to be frisked or blasted with radiation and nude photos taken if I want to ride Amtrack?

Will I be safer then?
I don't have a right to ride subway.

So, you see the 'advantages' of this type of reporting outweigh the 'risks' Cal? Isn't getting bad information still bad information whether it be from a private citizen or from MSM?
Of course.
Have you found a consitutional way to prevent the mainstream media from engaging in bad, lazy journalism yet? I haven't.

And although, I will concur that the penalties weren't all that meaningful, there was some accountability with journalists - there isn't going to be any from this cell phone video poster.
And responsible journalists should report on the story, just as the guy from THE BLAZE did. Despite the fact the editorial tone of that webpage is anti-big government, and arguably the video provoked the sentiment, they investigated the story immediately and reported the findings over the past few days.

And when it was posted here, I responded with the news.

My point is that you need to weigh all information -
That's always true.

and this type of information, 'viral video on the internet' shouldn't be taken as news at all, until the facts can actually be sorted out.
Should we wait until the Obama administration and George Soros can collaborate with MSNBC and NPR first?

You seem to be more likely to believe this than MSM Cal. I am just saying weigh it all, and wait... knee jerk reactions are almost always the worse.
Again, the impression you leave is that the MSM is responsible and can be trusted as the final arbiter of truth. They can't and this is becoming increasingly evident to a vastly growing segment of the population.

As a rule of thumb, you need to view EVERYTHING with a degree of skepticism and avoid knee jerk reactions. Always ask or find the context before responding. But I don't think that concern is any less when it comes to the MSM.

The story with that boy wasn't important, it was simply used to reinforce a story line. However, when a veteran anchor goes on the air a few days before an election with fradulent National Guard records- that's pretty significant. It is presented with credibility and timed to result in political impact.

Or when CNN and a veteran journalist release a report that the United States Army had used Sarin against a group of deserting U.S. soldiers in Laos in 1970.... only for it to be later discovered through independent investigation that the entire thing was a lie.

So, we all need to evaluate our sources.
However, I suspect you have a different reason to desire that internet free speech and communication be stifled or dismissed.
 
As far as how we know if the TSA has or has not stopped any terrorists...

Well, they caught the shoe bomber...
oh wait, that was after he tried to light the bomb and he was subdued by passengers.

But they caught the panty-bomber....
oh wait, that was after he ignited his crotch and he was subdued by passengers.

And they prevented those Yemen bombs from being loaded...
oh wait, they didn't. They only began to suspect them long after the plane had departed and was flying over the Atlantic Ocean headed to NY.

And, does anyone really think a terrorist is going to try to hijack another plane? Of course not. Frankly, I doubt their going to invest much more effort into getting bombs on passengers at this point.

Frankly, I'm more worried about a bio agent.
Or someone opening fire at the airport terminal, BEFORE the security screening, in the areas we have hundreds of people all huddled together in rope lines, defenseless- unless you don't count the TSA guys with their empty rifles.
 
And so cal - you are willing to take responsibility for all your actions - and will be pleased to let all this ride on that - is that what you are saying. My decisions are mine, period.

I decided not to wear a seatbelt - fine - my decision. I hit a semi doing 45 mph, not fast enough to kill me, but fast enough to damage me for the rest of my life. My insurance will run out in 3 years - then the state takes care of me for the remaining 40 years of my life. You are OK with that. Or, since my insurance runs out in 3 years - I am left to die, the state has no responsibility to take care of the indigent, of which I am at that point.

You pay, or you allow me to die. Or, you hopefully avoid the big cost of those decisions, and go with the small cost of seatbelt usage.

What about the cases where seatbelts caused the driver or passenger severe injuries, such as preventing him/her from exiting the car and avoiding being burned severely?

Follow the money - seatbelts kill people, but the state governments get Fed money to achieve 85% compliance.

Once again, fox, thanks for playing the propaganda game. :rolleyes:

No Cal - here is the reality - your decisions affect those far removed from your family and yourself. We live in a complex society. Mankind has been handing over responsibility for protection since we have had loosely based societies that didn't include just family members. The clan's men went out hunting - leaving the women, children, and old behind. So - a couple of men were left behind to protect them.
What the hell kind of straw man have you erected now???
Today - we have police that protect us, soldiers that protect us, a large variety of structured organizations that protect us. You want to wear a tag that says 'Only protect me in these cases...' It isn't feasible in a large society Cal.
No, fox. The police don't protect us. They aren't even required by law to do so. The fact is that you don't believe that people are resourceful enough to take care of themselves, so the smart eggheads from Harvard should run their lives for them. Pure statist.
 
How do you know they haven't...
Because stupid idiots like Janet Incompetano come on the news and announce that the passenger who discovered the panty bomber was 'part of the system that worked.' :rolleyes:

If there were other successes, they'd be trumpeting them - especially now that they're under fire.

Why do you support a failed system that is always at least 1 year behind the terrorists?
 
I hit a semi doing 45 mph, not fast enough to kill me, but fast enough to damage me for the rest of my life. My insurance will run out in 3 years - then the state takes care of me for the remaining 40 years of my life.
What a profound point. What a clever way of framing things.
I'd totally forgotten about the hundreds, if not thousands, of hospitals and hospice centers that are full of under insured motorists who were involved in car accidents prior to 1968, when seat belts became mandatory safety equipment. Or the more recent ones from the mid-eighties, before seat belt usage became enforceable law.

That's a powerful image you create. Seriously, who doesn't remember a dozen or so people in our lives prior to 1986 that were involved in near fatal accidents leaving them dependent upon the state for the rest of their lives. How many hundreds of thousands of people are knocking around, living well into their 80s and 90s. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you didn't notice my sarcasm in that comment.

So, to begin, your hypothetical example is ridiculous.
Even if to be taken seriously, it is such an isolated example, it hardly doesn't warrant being the basis of national policy, nor does it justify the invasion of the government into my life and the errosion of my person freedom.

If you wanted to be sensible, the best arguments for seatbelts is as follows-
Seatbelts keep you in your seat.
They prevent the driver from being flung around the car enabling him to better control the vehicle in an accident, preventing the car from becoming driverless and out of control. It is a safety device intended to protect OTHER DRIVERS on the road, no different than having red tail lights or rear brakes.

As we've discussed before,
you are using an argument to justify seat belt laws that literally means government has the right to influence or decide EVERY decision in my life. Can I have salt on my food? Can I eat hamburgers? Can I go hang gliding.
Because of you statist, big government philosophy and it's encroachment into my life, you can make an economic argument for EVERYTHING.

So what is the solution?
Easy.
Less government.

And most specifically, less federal government.
The federal government should be forcing states to adopt seatbelt laws by with holding federal money. The federal government shouldn't even be distributing that money.

You are OK with that. Or, since my insurance runs out in 3 years - I am left to die, the state has no responsibility to take care of the indigent, of which I am at that point.
No. They have no responsibility.
The problem now is that everyone has the expectation that the faceless government, be it state or federal, is responsible for doing that. And in coming to that conclusion, after much persuasion by people like you, they no longer feel that they have any personal responsibility in the matter.

If such a situation were to befall a family member of mine, I'd have a personal and ethical obligation to provide for their care- not the government. And if it were beyond my means, then my social and public network would step in. Church, organizations, friends, town, ect...

We've been conditioned to think otherwise, but that's not a healthy or viable approach.

You pay, or you allow me to die. Or, you hopefully avoid the big cost of those decisions, and go with the small cost of seatbelt usage.
You've presented a false choice.
But, also something to consider, when the state runs out of money, who pays?

No Cal - here is the reality - your decisions affect those far removed from your family and yourself. We live in a complex society. Mankind has been handing over responsibility for protection since we have had loosely based societies that didn't include just family members.
And the "Right to Bear Arms" is about hunting and sports shooting too....:rolleyes:

Today - we have police that protect us, soldiers that protect us, a large variety of structured organizations that protect us. You want to wear a tag that says 'Only protect me in these cases...' It isn't feasible in a large society Cal.
Wrong again.
The police and military are in place to protect society from specific threats, or to enforce the laws, but they aren't in place to protect each and everyone of us specifically and individually. They aren't capable of doing so, nor do they have the constitutional authority that would be necessary.

Ultimately, we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and the things we care about. If I'm out running tonight and someone tries to mug me, I don't expect a police officer to show up and resolve the situation.

He might show up afterwards and take my statement.
Maybe they'll draw a chalk outline around the mugger.
But he's not responsible for my protection.

And if someone kicks in my front door tonight, no police officer is going to protect me. He might help prosecute the intruder, or be a witness in the lawsuit against me for "wrongful death" brought by the guys family... but he's not there to protect me.

Ultimately, I am responsible for the protection of myself, my family, and my possessions. Regardless your bull:q:q:q:q, utopian spiel.
 
Perhaps you didn't notice my sarcasm in that comment.

Hardly...

However - what you didn't notice is if I didn't eventually have to pay for your stupidity, I wouldn't care what you did.

But if you haven't noticed - we pay for stupidity in this country - all the time.

Because if we, as a society, felt that it truly was OK that you are responsible for all your actions, then we would be OK with people really paying for the results of those actions.

We aren't.

That won't change.

I will be forced to pay with my tax dollars for the continuing care of the idiot that thought Cheerios where a medical marvel. I will be forced to pay for the motorcyclist that rode without a helmet, crashed, and squished his brains out all over the pavement - but there was enough of his cerebral cortex intact that he can live on a respirator for 30 years.

If we are willing to let that idiot die because he only ate cheerios for every meal, because he decided it could take the place of his heart medicine, and we are willing for the motorcyclist to removed from life support because it was his decision to not wear a helmet, and the accident was his fault, I will be just fine with that. But it won't happen.

I am the realist here cal - not you. You have this idea that
Ultimately, I am responsible for the protection of myself, my family, and my possessions.

Talk about utopian thought - that is some of the most utopian thought I have ever seen. That everyone would be 'responsible'. And those of us who 'are' would be willing to watch those who 'aren't' pay the price. Because, believe me we would. There would be plenty of people who would fall through the cracks - who don't have a family/social/church network to pick up the pieces.
 
Hardly...

However - what you didn't notice is if I didn't eventually have to pay for your stupidity, I wouldn't care what you did.

But if you haven't noticed - we pay for stupidity in this country - all the time.
Yeah...the 2008 election has already cost us trillions. :rolleyes:
 

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