This is why you replace all of your cooling components at once! (Plus helpful links)

[BrianDye]

There are quite a few threads on what to do, or what you need, but none of them i've saw go into detail with pictures about the parts.

I picked up my 03 LS for $400. Got it running (clogged cats), It overheated first time I drove it, checked the coolant level and it was almost a gallon low. Posted about it here, Joegr immediately linked me to a thread and told me I basically need to replace everything in my cooling system. Im hard-headed, and stubborn and thought "no way, my stuff looks fine." I knew he was right, but I hoped maybe by sheer luck, I could drive the car for quite some time before having any of the cooling parts issues.

My plastic pieces looked nice and dark black, hoses looked fine, I couldn't see any of the dried white residue (Which is dried up coolant), I just wanted to replace whatever had leaked, and be on my way to driving this car finally. He also mentioned a common broken area in the radiators that leak. (He had been right about everything else on my car, and was right about this as well) I replaced the radiator, and all was well. System was building and holding pressure like normal, no air getting in, etc. I had a fully normal functioning cooling system, and no overheating under any circumstances.

Fast forward to last week. I finally started driving the LS to work (35~ highway miles each way). All was well, fast forward to the 3rd day, appx 200 miles were put on the LS since I started driving it. (It has 186,000 miles) I smell coolant very strong while cruising on the highway. Temp gauge starts to rise, so I pull over, pop the hood, coolant is EVERYWHERE under the hood.

Used my newly-bought AAA membership to get a free tow home. Took the intake tube off, couldn't see ANY signs of a broken hose, or failed plastic part. I knew there was way too much coolant spilled on the engine to be a plastic part spewing out of a crack or something.

My thermostat housing blew an end cap off.

I thought my stuff looked newer, like it had been replaced within a reasonable time. My degas bottle was yellowing, but didn't look that yellow.

Here are some pictures, now that I have the system "broken down" which wasn't hard at all. I took my time and had all the parts i'm replacing off within maybe 2 hours. Hardest part ive experienced so far was the hose clamp on the degas bottle bottom line. I ended up pulling it far enough to get a wrench on the clamp and wiggle it out of the way.

Here was my engine when I was on the side of the highway at 4am. Doesn't look like much, but the drivers side of the engine was drenched in coolant. Fan, radiator, hoses, top of the engine, etc.

Pass side was pretty dry

Then I finally saw THIS

This is on the drivers side. This hole normally has a cap of some sort glued in place. (Not a cap that you remove, like a radiator cap)

See, I still contemplated on ordering just the thermostat housing (3 pieces) because thats all that was broke. But in the back of my head, I could see Joegr shaking his head, and saying "I told you so" if I skimped out and just replaced what was bad.

Now with the wiper cowl, and strut brace removed, it was much more evident that my degas bottle was baaaaad.

Ive always read that the degas bottle develops cracks in the back, that you wont see unless you remove it. Nah, not mine. Its not leaking.
Wrong.

Front

Check out that color difference...

Said cracks

Here are the common failure points. Any plastic you see in this pic will need to be replaced sooner or later.

Lower rad hose (If you have the oil cooler, it has the two smaller hoses coming off)

Upper

This is 2/3 of the thermostat housing. The third piece is still on my motor, because I have to buy some new cut off wheels to get the bolt out of it. I went the route of not removing my whole intake, though it doesn't look like it would be much extra effort, and wouldn't hurt to clean it and put new gaskets on. I may end up still doing that.

The part thats supposed to have a cap

The other side that has the cap

See what I said, the outside doesn't look so bad. Nice and black, fairly clean. Check out the inside

Check out those fat hoses...definitely not supposed to be that bloated looking

Now heres the inlets on the heads. Again, with everything in place, I saw no signs of leaking. Very apparent leaks now that the parts are removed.

And again, check out the inside of that plastic piece

Also a good time to change the gasket on my intake, because it definitely didn't have a good seal

Unfortunately they don't make any aluminum replacements for Gen II's like the Gen I.

Helpful threads: (Be aware, some of these are years old. Prices of parts has definitely went up on some)
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?78659-Coolant-plumbing-replacement

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?77940-Coolant-Hoses-Total-Cost

Here is a photo album on Facebook full of pics of the job
https://www.facebook.com/TooManyToys-104882132926478/photos/?tab=album&album_id=183765648371459

If you remove the intake, you'll need a set of fuel line disconnects like these:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-7337-Fue...fuel line disconnect tool&tag=viglink20729-20

 

[elephantrider]

good work man ! should be running fine after all of that.

 

[RigsLS]

All that browning on the insides is the start of the plastics deterioration. Complemented by repetitive heat cycles over time. It weakens and crumbles. No amount of "running un-pressurized" solves this common faith of the LS cooling system.


Good work pulling it all on one page Brian,
add some name & part numbers and it's a write up alright. Kudos!

 

[grizzlyls]

I thought that missing cap was so you could run the unpressurized system..... :shifty:

Good job, when your in the burbank area, you can come and do a gen 1 write up with me!

 

[BrianDye]

All that browning on the insides is the start of the plastics deterioration. Complemented by repetitive heat cycles over time. It weakens and crumbles. No amount of "running un-pressurized" solves this common faith of the LS cooling system.


Good work pulling it all on one page Brian,
add some name & part numbers and it's a write up alright. Kudos!

Thanks! It wasn't meant to be a write up, but more of a helpful link when people argue or want to know why they need to replace it all at once. Me being that guy who said "No, mine all look fine" until I pulled them all off. Theres quite a few threads with pictures of doing the job, but nothing really related to pictures of the bad parts, and leaks and whatnot. Good idea though on making the parts list. Ill probably work on that one of these next couple days. I might get to come home from work early tonight, so maybe tonight. I wondered what that brown/orangish was. Figured it was just the plastic degrading. Man, my degas bottle was messed up! That area where its cracked is literally like warped outwards. Good design!

I thought that missing cap was so you could run the unpressurized system..... :shifty:

Good job, when your in the burbank area, you can come and do a gen 1 write up with me!

Thanks man. Its funny, as long as i've loved LS'es, it wasnt until I got this Gen II that I realized just how different Gen 1 and 2 are. I always noticed the small stuff like the the taillights, headlights and front bumper reflectors, but that was about it.

Its one of my goals to get out to California some time. I always said if I ever lose my job, id probably buy an old box truck, pack everything I could and start over out there. Id be happy with a one-room apartment. All the scenery out there, live somewhere near the ocean, id never be home.

 

[don-ohio]

Quote BR:`No amount of "running un-pressurized" solves this common faith of the LS cooling system.'

BR,since you've NEVER tried it,you don't know what would happen. The pressure is probably the MAIN culprit in the deterioration process. Mine are doing great even though coming up on 13 and 14 years old.
Talk about what you know,not what you don't have a clue about. LOL! don-ohio ^)

 

[RigsLS]

.. The pressure is probably the MAIN culprit in the deterioration process ...

Again as before when we tried to explain it to you. The 16psi is not going to be the big factor in whether this hot Coolant within Plastic parts deteriorates fast or faster.
As I've explained ... or attempted to explain to your tiny brain, is that it's a combination of aging plastic parts subjected to chemicals while in a state of constant heat cycling. Plastics is pourish, it has small micro holes within it, hot coolant over the years will begin to eat away at these plastics, noted by the brown pitting as it's first initial stage as the plastic begins to break down. ie: DETERIORATES

This is a well know issue in the automotive industry, everyone understands this, except you of course. "LOL! don-ohio" <-- idiot

Applying 16psi of pressure to this LS plastic cooling system is NOT what causes the leaks or the crumbling apart. Nor is it what causes the degas bottle to develop tiny micro cracks over time. It's the chemical reaction to plastics during excessive heat cycling over time as parts begin to age.

I put the important part in bold lettering for you, perhaps it will sink in this time.

... Talk about what you know,not what you don't have a clue about. LOL! don-ohio ^)

​

You should probably just SHUT THE F*CK UP right about now old man! You have little clue.


I'm not the one spreading this nasty fairy tale story of loosening your degas bottle cap and by doing so will never spring a leak in the cooling system.
You're the one that believes your own stories ... simply loosening the cap to relief such little pressure is NOT what stops the deteriorating of plastics process.

A guy working at a nuclear plant with chemicals I would suspect to understand this but considering you've worked there so long and then got the boot, you're at a part now where at best you collect shinny things.

AND ... not to mention the Cooling system parts you've already both purchased and replaced. Or are we still just keeping those in the trunk for the "just in case" moment.

Don, you remain an idiot to me, at least try and UNDERSTAND THAT if you will not fully understand the break down of plastics due to excessive heat cycling over time theory.

I'm not getting into it with you again, you're an idiot and remain ignorant to the subject.

 

[RigsLS]

Here, try and do some reading Don, try and learn something new today would ya!

“They just don’t make ’em like they used to…” Your Engine’s Cooling System

We have observed through many years of servicing these systems that heat and age deteriorate the plastic components. Through normal engine heating up and cooling down, the plastic parts become less elastic and more brittle ...

odd how a major contributor does not make any mention of pressure within a cooling system as the main culprit.


here's some more google readings for you ... of course you have to be willing to learn something new and actually understand what is presented to you.

Plastic cooling system parts deterioration


... with any luck we can dig you up some university white papers on the subject.

 

[don-ohio]

Quote BR: `Applying 16psi of pressure to this LS plastic cooling system is NOT what causes the leaks or the crumbling apart. '

Oh,yes......it is! It's not JUST the heat cycle,it's the PRESSURE cycle. And sucking that air back in wouldn't happen with an unpressurized system. The cap being tight causes suction when cooling,pulling the air in thru micro cracks.
My DE-GAS bottle on both vehicles look worn. But they AREN"T LEAKING because I run UN-pressurized.
Just keep buying parts and blowing them,BR..........it helps our economy when you waste money like that.
Don't EVER get caught listening to common sense from a guy and his friends and family that have millions of miles on UN-pressurized systems. LOL! don-ohio ^)

 

[LS4me]

All that browning on the insides is the start of the plastics deterioration. Complemented by repetitive heat cycles over time. It weakens and crumbles. No amount of "running un-pressurized" solves this common faith of the LS cooling system.


Good work pulling it all on one page Brian,
add some name & part numbers and it's a write up alright. Kudos!

PLEASE STOP saying Bettlejuice... Beattlejuice senses every time you mention "pressure". How long before someone actually takes that bad advise and suffers a problem?

 

[BrianDye]

 

[grizzlyls]

Rofl, Popcorn. I see that all the time on the MMO forums I play on. Wonder if we will have to explain here.....

 

[nghtshd88]

No one seems to replace the heater hoses, is there a reason besides not being a common break point? I assume they are made of the same material as the rest so shouldnt it be a definite replacement if the rest of it is always damned?

 

[joegr]

The hoses seem to be okay (maybe for 20 years?), with the exception of the throttle heater hose on one of mine. The reason for replacing the radiator hoses, is that they have a plastic section in the middle, and that's what fails, not the hose itself.

The heater actually has a few hoses at the front of the car with specialized connectors built on. These connect to pipes that run to the firewall. Then there are more specialized hoses with connectors that then go to the heater cores, heater bleed, and the degas return. All in all, it's pretty expensive to replace all that. I don't know of any that have failed yet.

 

[BrianDye]

Additional info: (Wanted to edit this into the first post, but theres no edit option for some reason)

Here is that elbow I mentioned in the first post that was still on the car. I finally got to taking it off, and it was bad. Probably the worst part of them all. I am assuming my thermostat housing has been replaced at some point, but they skimped on this.

You can see how orange it is. That was with no flash on my phone. This next pic doesnt look as bad, it used the flash and really washed the orange color out.

Here is my engine. You can see there was definitely quite a bit of leaking.

 

[RigsLS]

Yup, not that your pic is the first ever posted but as you can clearly see, the brown pitting on the inside where exposed to hot coolant is the beginning of the deterioration process. It's just the way it is in this particular application, no way around it.

Good thing your getting to it all now. This is why we always suggest replace all at once and refresh the cooling system, it's not that difficult, anyone can do it. Only a dealer job if you can afford to throw good money away.

Many of us have done it once or twice and many after us will. Pages upon pages well documented here on LVC thanks to many valuable members.

Good stuff Brian, get that LS up to par and she'll be good for a while. There will be a few more things in the winds ahead of us all like window regulators, clock springs and such but the majority is the ignition, cooling system and suspension. If your a 1st GEN owner you get a set of chain and tentioners as well just for good old popcorn entertainment.

Good luck and thanks for the cool updates.

 

[BrianDye]

Thanks man. Yeah I wanted to keep telling myself no, I don't need it, but it really is the truth. When one piece goes bad, literally every other plastic piece is on its way out, or already leaking and you can't see it like in my case.

After this and a trans solenoid, I *should* be good to go. Oh, almost forgot, need to reattach my sunroof drain on the drivers side. Of course I'm getting my parts in today and it's supposed to rain. Can't even push that project off a bit.

I know I'll be picking up an '06 some time in the future, I will probably already have a whole new cooling system on hand for it. Spend a good whole day doing the cooling system, coils, plugs, probably VCG's too.

 

[1LoudLS]

probably VCG's too.

being an 06, that should be needed as the problem was corrected by then.

 

[don-ohio]

Here's an example of the Blind BR leading the UN-suspecting...LOL!

Quote BR's ignorance:`Applying 16psi of pressure to this LS plastic cooling system is NOT what causes the leaks or the crumbling apart. Nor is it what causes the degas bottle to develop tiny micro cracks over time.'

BR's BS......LOL! ANY engineer of Hydro-Mechanics will absolutely tell you that pressure cycles along with heat on plastic will deteriorate the plastic pipe AND gaskets more quickly. don-ohio ^)

 

[joegr]

being an 06, that should be needed as the problem was corrected by then.

Well, eventually the rubber will harden and need to be replaced. They fixed the major problem, but still there seems to be a ten year up to 200K miles lifespan.

 

[joegr]

... BR's BS......LOL! ANY engineer of Hydro-Mechanics will absolutely tell you that pressure cycles along with heat on plastic will deteriorate the plastic pipe AND gaskets more quickly. don-ohio ^)

Not any (as in all) "hydro-mechanics" engineer. Why don't you present some to back up your point? Is there even one?
BR is right on this. It's time and temperature cycles plus coolant. Pressure has little to nothing to do with the plastic degrading. (Reducing the pressure will increase the time it takes for it to rupture after it has degraded, but not to a great amount.) The other plastic parts that fail under the hood, such as the latches on the connectors, are not under pressure. It is recommended to replace the belt if it gets coolant on it. leaked coolant on the belt is not under pressure, yet it still degrades the belt.
I know that you think you know what you think you know, but please don't make up lies about engineers agreeing with you. If they did, there would be at least some non-pressurized cooling systems. As it is, there are no non-pressurized car cooling systems. I wonder why this is?

Anyway, continue to give your theory, but don't claim that anyone else supports it.

 

[don-ohio]

Joe,you know the LS,but I doubt you have a clue about pressure cycles increasing wear on plastic parts. I have the miles and years to prove you don't need pressure.
The reason there is a recommended pressure cap for the engines IS................they don't(and rightly so) trust the common car owner to make sure he/she has at least 50/50 antifreeze ratios on their vehicles.
What I say to people who DO NOT THINK IT'S FUN to buy and replace expensive parts on a vehicle with a weak plastic-laden cooling system, is that you DO NOT NEED pressure IF you keep at least 60% antifreeze to 40% water in the system.
I try to save them trouble and money,and you guys encourage trouble and money.
It's THEIR decision,NOT yours,Joe. It's THEIR money,and trouble.
If they are not the type of people that can keep their cooling system at this 60/40 ratio,or if they drive thru high mountains,then they need to bite the high cost bullet.
I'll never have to replace ALL my cooling parts or spend a day broken down and calling AAA because if I would happen to get a leak,it would be only a seepage,NOT a Geyser. LOL! don-ohio ^)

 

[joegr]

So, no engineers to back you up. That's what I thought (knew).

 

[don-ohio]

Read PAGE 6 and PAGE 9 on this report, Joe. Read the whole thing if you want..............it tells you pressure makes chemical attack on plastic pipe A whole new ball game. don-ohio ^)

https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tr-19_thermoplastic_pipe_for_transport_of_chemical.pdf

 

[LS4me]

Read PAGE 6 and PAGE 9 on this report, Joe. Read the whole thing if you want..............it tells you pressure makes chemical attack on plastic pipe A whole new ball game. don-ohio ^)

https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tr-19_thermoplastic_pipe_for_transport_of_chemical.pdf

I don't see how that is in any way applicable to an automotive engine cooling (actually maintaining a narrow temperature range) system. Were non-pressurized the nirvana of engine cooling race cars would utilize a non-pressurized system. Alas they don't and their engines need last only 500ish miles.

You still haven't answered why you don't run a non-pressurized fuel system...