Lincoln LS 12.6" Brake Upgrade Confirmed

Lincoln LS

  1. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    It all works! In a nut shell. Here is what I have learned:

    1) Thought the calipers were iron, nice surprise there
    2) I hate those stupid rotor retainer clips!!!
    3) They are not squeal tabs, they were anti-rattle clips, oops :)


    But since no one cares about that, here's the deal on it all...

    You will need the following parts:
    - Brake Caliper Bracket from an 03-05 Jag S-Type "Sport"
    - Brake Rotor for an 03-05 Jag S-Type "Sport" (320mm if not denoted)
    - Brake Pads for an 03-05 Jag S-Type "Sport" (Not the exact same as regular LS, but the LS pads might work fine)
    - OEM Rattle Clips from Jaguar (HAH!) or modify the stock ones
    - 17" Rims or bigger I think (Someone with 16's let me know if it fits)

    Here is what I ordered from rockauto to get the job done:
    x1 - A1-Cardone 141650
    x1 - A1-Cardone 141651
    x2 - Centric 12061077
    x1 - Centric 10610650
    Total: $234 shipped

    The caliper is the same. The difference is made up in the bracket. Where the bracket is machined for clearance for the rotor is different by about a 1/4" or so. The bolt hole locations are also different around 1/4" or so. Took me a good few minutes staring at the two brackets side by side to even find the difference. Really is something that can only be measured for sure.

    The new calipers have about 1/2" of unused rotor face down near the hub now. The old ones had about 1/4" or so. Again this is eyeball measurement but there is a noticeable difference in placement of pad on old vs new so you are getting the benefit of the bigger rotor via mechanical leverage. Pad is still about 1/8" away from the rotor edge.

    The pads have a slightly different curve to them to match the rotor. Despite what centric said, my pads did not have a directional chamfer and instead had a universal chamfer (it's on both side instead of just 1). There were not many options for the S-Type "Sport" in the pad department so I just went with some decent semi-metallic until I new it would work for sure. Now the quest for low-dust ceramics may begin. I dream of the say when my silver wheels still look silver after a week!

    The clips on top of the pad will have to be moved out to the very end of the pad. This is to prevent them from contacting the rotor at the corner when compressed by the caliper. The U-Shaped clips will have to have the lip curled up more to match the thinner bracket. I did this by using tin snips, cutting about 1/8" up the inside of the clip, and then rolling it back with a hammer. If you don't do this, the clips will rub.

    I have not completed a bed-in yet but once I put 50-100 miles or so on the new pads I will let you know how the brakes feel. Initial impression is more grab with less pedal, and more of a responsive feel. Definitely a noticable improvement but somewhat lacking for me. It still feels like I will need the stainless lines to really get the feel I want though. Not like that's a problem it's on the list of things to do anyways.


    Rotor:
    [​IMG]

    Rotor w/ Pads:
    Here's how the pads fit the rotors, notice the increased face at the bottom:
    [​IMG]

    A bracket, right side I believe:
    [​IMG]

    Old rotor in new rotor box, showing the diameter difference:
    [​IMG]

    How the bracket is different:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. 2000lsv8

    2000lsv8 Well-Known LVC Member

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    Very nice Kumba!
    I believe I'll take this one step further and get some slotted rotors for the Jag sport.
    In addition to the S.S. lines I imagine this will be a great upgrade!
    Thanks for doing the research!!
     
  3. M4rk

    M4rk Dedicated LVC Member

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    Please use some free image hosting service. I wan't to see this but can't. That linux web server doesn't work well.

    Edit: Nevermind, there we go. Might be a DNS problem for me.
     
  4. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    I just went with blanks since I normally don't drive hard enough to warrant slotted rotors. Maybe once a month they might come in handy, but on an auto-cross you don't drive long enough to really get the benefit. Now if it was a track day, then yeah, totally worth it. Now if aesthetics are you thing, then whatever makes you happy :)


    You can do it! :)

    The primary DNS IP changed and I've been too lazy to update it. So, it might take a little longer to fail-over and resolve on the secondary. One of these days I'll fix it.
     
  5. HyeLifeLS

    HyeLifeLS Dedicated LVC Member

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    Beautiful!!!
     
  6. HyeLifeLS

    HyeLifeLS Dedicated LVC Member

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    Lets see pictures on the car
     
  7. Rich88LSC

    Rich88LSC Dedicated LVC Member

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    Awesome. I actually was looking into parts to try this. Thanks for posting part numbers. Now I know it works I'm not rushing but this is a definite upgrade for me.
     
  8. Alax7

    Alax7 Dedicated LVC Member

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    Very nice work. Glad to see ls guys doing some dirty work and opening up new doors for everyone else
     
  9. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    It looks just like the stock brakes on an LS. Take the wheel off your car and look at it. Same exact look. :)

    I have to do a follow up. Either a rotor is warped or a pad is sticking. Sounds like the pad isn't completely disengaging from the rotor face. Going to have a buddy measure the run-out for me. The "corrosion coating" on the pads did seem a little stiff, so they might just need a wire-wheel taken to them some. Will have more later.
     
  10. PaulD

    PaulD LVC Member

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    I am interested in seeing how they perform with the ABS in wet conditions. I had someone tell me that doing something like this on a car will upset the balance between the brakes and the ABS leading to problems in wet conditions. Keep an eye on this and let us know if something quirky shows up during hard brakeing in wet conditions.
     
  11. mlara1129

    mlara1129 Dedicated LVC Member

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    THANK YOU!

    I was going to upgrade to the stoptech kit in the near future. Now i can upgrade even more! lol

    post some pics when you get them on? maybe a comparison of stock and these sport ones?
     
  12. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    LOL. You guys do know they look identical to the stock brakes right? You need a ruler to tell the difference. It's not like I slapped Brembo's on. When I pop the wheel to check out the noise I'll take a pic. So you can see them.
     
  13. manoli

    manoli Dedicated LVC Member

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    Nice work! I cant stand those damn clips either;)
     
  14. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    So I did a few laps around the neighborhood, and the sound is something like two pieces of paper rubbing together, almost like a chirp but more of a rubbing then squealing sound. Definitely something rubbing somewhere. When I brake the sound does not change other then the frequency at which it happens since the tires are slowing down. If I jam the brakes I can definitely hear the pads on the rotor surface with a familiar friction sound.

    I am guessing I tweaked the pins in one of the brackets and it's causing the caliper to stick, or I got one of the rattle clips on wrong. There is no pulsation in the pedal at all and it pulls straight even when I stand on it which leads me to believe it's not a warped rotor. Guess i'll consult the shop manual and verify I put the clips on correctly.

    Worse case scenario, the rotors are scrubbing something somewhere, but I looked at the rotor through the tire and couldn't see anything on the face of it, at least not on the outer face. Here's to hoping it's something simple :)
     
  15. LEOV5

    LEOV5 Dedicated LVC Member

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    Great project, so the pad is bigger to use more of the rotor. I see the benefit to this upgrade now. And yes the SS hoses will really make her stop. Now what about the rears?
     
  16. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    I didn't think to measure that. I can't say for certain if the pad is any bigger, but it is profiled a little different for the bigger rotor (less of a curve in the pad, slightly). The pad is positioned further out from the center, which does give you more rotor surface area per revolution to dissipate heat through as well as increased mechanical leverage. So the same stopping power generates less heat build-up and requires less pedal. All very good things.


    You know, I haven't been so pissed at an inanimate object in a LONG time. Now I remember why I quit working on cars when I didn't want to. :)

    But what can I say, this Lincoln is the first car in a while that I've looked forward to wrenching on. Last one was an '85 t-bird with a 302. Used to call it the "$hit Missle". :D
     
  17. Dizzledude

    Dizzledude LVC Member

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    First of all, nice upgrade! I may have to try this and see how it responds with my SS brake lines. Secondly I think you should check to see if your rotor is either contacting the dust shield or if the top of the rotor is touching the caliper bracket clips. I had a similar issue and I had to bend the middle of top clip upward so it wasn't making contact with the top of the rotor anymore. Just a starting place to look. :D
     
  18. De-marko

    De-marko Dedicated LVC Member

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    Wow, lots of guys doing some upgrades!......Good deal.
     
  19. 02LincLS

    02LincLS Dedicated LVC Member

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    Seems weird for the pad to not contact more of rotor. The pad is bigger? I wonder if the increase in pad size is enough to overcome the small increase in rotating mass. Good work though. I hope you get the noise figured out and that its nothing major.

    At the very least, the larger rotor can fill in more of the wheel opening for people with larger/open wheels. I wonder what aftermarket caliper options are out there for the S type and if they can clear the 17" wheels.
     
  20. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    I thought about it last night, and I am pretty sure it's the two rattle clips between the bracket and pads that span the rotor, not the ones on top of the pads. The new bracket is actually clearanced more for the bigger rotor. If the old clips were hanging down too far because the old bracket wasn't clearanced as much, it could very well be rubbing the outside of the rotor. And that is what the sound is like, like thin steel rubbing against something big/heavy.

    Here is a picture of the thinner part I'm talking about:
    [​IMG]




    Jaguar lists the same pad for the sport and non-sport according to their parts breakdown I found. Maybe it's just the aftermarket pads I bought but the profile of the pad looked different. I don't believe the pad is any bigger as far as the backing plate is concerned. To have a bigger pad you would need a bigger backing plate which would need a bigger caliper. What you are gaining is leverage and more rotor surface area to handle heat. It's like putting a pipe over a breaker bar so you can get a bolt out. YOU aren't generating any more force then you were 5 minutes ago, but since you have more leverage, more mechanical force is being applied to the bolt. Since the rotor is bigger/heavier, that means there is about 2-pounds more iron to heat up until it glazes the pads or fades. Also because the rotor is bigger, that means it's surface area to act as a heatsink is bigger and it can get rid of more heat.

    Brakes are really about 3 things:
    1) Heat Management
    2) Mechanical Function (leverage/clamping force/etc)
    3) Unsprung Weight

    This makes the first two better at a slight sacrifice of the third.
     
  21. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    OK, so a few updates.

    You will either need to find the OEM Jaguar Rattle Clips, which the dealer will gladly sell you for $100 with OEM pads, or modify your existing ones.

    Firstly, the two clips that go on top of the pad need to be moved to the far end of the pad and not in their stock location on the pad. That means they move outwards about 1/8-1/4" more. This is to prevent them from hitting the rotor when compressed by the caliper.

    Second, the large U-Shaped rotor clips will need to be clearanced to clear the rotor outer edge. I did this by taking some tin snips, snipping about 1/8" up the inside, and using a hammer to curl the lip back. This is the lip that goes where the bracket is thinner in the other picture I linked.

    Other then that, the brakes work great, and are starting to bed in and are just getting better. Considering it only cost me $50 more then a regular brake job, not bad :)

    As a side note, according to Centric, the difference in the backing plates between the LS pad and the Jag S-Type "Sport" pad is the LS pad is 50-thousandths smaller lengthwise. Whether or not the rattle clips can take up the difference adequately without the pad knocking against the bracket when engaging is as yet unverified. If you try it with regular LS pads, post back and let us know. There does seem to be more options for LS pads then the Jag, and the only real difference is the Jag pad has a U-shaped indentation at the top for what I would presume to be a wear sensor. The Jag pad is also like 2-thousandths thinner then the LS pad according to Centric's diagram.

    I would post pictures, but I dropped my phone at a movie theater and now the screen won't come up (it's a touch-screen phone). Whenever I get a replacement, I'll upload the pics of what I'm talking about.
     
  22. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    Here are the pics of the rest of the stuff:

    Brake Upgrade Complete:
    [​IMG]

    Top rattle clips move to edge of pad:
    [​IMG]

    Side rattle clips rubbing in unmodified form:
    [​IMG]

    Side rattle clips modified to prevent rubbing:
    [​IMG]


    The pics might not load, I'm moving this weekend and the server might go MIA.
     
  23. Kumba

    Kumba Dedicated LVC Member

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    Finally had a good downpour here. So I can answer the above. Things to keep in mind is I have two factors at play, the brake upgrade and good new tires. The brakes have been bedded in and got about 1000-miles on them. But the long and short of it it:
    - The ABS seems to activate less in a hard stop
    - The car pulls predictably (straight and turning) and doesn't feel unstable at all
    - Initial bite is improved but then softens (lines I think)
    - Definitely less pedal needed for the same stopping action
    - This is true for both wet and dry conditions

    I went and found an empty parking lot at an old abandoned k-mart, accelerated to about 40, then smashed the brakes. The ABS kicked in for a second or so before the car stopped. It actually took me a few tries to really even tell the ABS was kicking in. I finally did one hail-mary run at about 60 through a pool of water and they definitely kicked in. I think the tires and brakes are both contributing here, but the ABS definitely activates less and the car bites a lot firmer initially. It still gets a kind of soft feel to the pedal after the initial hit but I am pretty sure that's the lines at work. Will be fixed when I upgrade to SS ones.

    I woke up too late and couldn't make it to the last autocross so I can't give much of a testimony on repeated hard use yet, but I should have more around July 17. I still do not know 100% how much better they are in terms of fade or heat management. I just do not have a legal (sane) way to do that on the street. I am guessing they will have minimal fade in an average 1-minute run which would be an improvement over the stock ones. Those I could definitely feel fade by the end of the track, but I could still get through 3/4 of my run before it was noticeable. And that track you had to brake every 20-feet or so to sling it around a turn. Longest straight was about 50-feet and there was a 100-foot slalom you didn't use them much. It was a 1/2-mi course.

    Hope that helps.
     
  24. The Hotness

    The Hotness Well-Known LVC Member

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    I am definitely disappointed in the braking of the LS. I think your on the right track with this.

    I got dangerous smoking brake fade within a few turns of a spirited canyon run.. Not fun and brand new brake fluid.
     
  25. xford

    xford Well-Known LVC Member

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    Nice work...thanks to your effort I will do this mod in the future :D
     

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