Engine Swaps...

BDHTree

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Has anyone done any engine swaps on their LS, or read anything about them. I am looking into swapping a 4.6L 4 valve Blown cobra V8, but so far I haven't really heard anything about them. Can it be done, and is it worth it? (P.S. I have a V6, so I am in need of power).
Thanks,
Tree
 

MonsterMark

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I understand your need for speed but I think that would be a monumental task at best. I would look into a power adder for the V6 first and see if that satifies your hunger. If not, I don't even know where to start. Give Geno at LincolnMotorSport a heads up and he can probably steer you in the right direction. His call sign is ONEBADMK8 on the board here.
 

Quik LS

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not gonna work.

the One Lap Of America LS had a 4.6L SuperCharged Roush Stage 3 enginge swapped into it.

Two issues:
- overheated, overheated, overheated
- they ran two PCMs - one for the engine and the other for the LS - neither talked to eachother - so the gauges, speedo, ... nothing work.

and these were LS engineers.
 

BDHTree

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Quik LS said:
not gonna work.

the One Lap Of America LS had a 4.6L SuperCharged Roush Stage 3 enginge swapped into it.

Two issues:
- overheated, overheated, overheated
- they ran two PCMs - one for the engine and the other for the LS - neither talked to eachother - so the gauges, speedo, ... nothing work.

and these were LS engineers.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if they documented the swap anywhere? I would really like to read about it and find out why they had so much trouble. I mean I know the car is difficult, but you think that the engineers could make it work... I hope.
 

CaptainZilog

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That PCM problem would be tough for a backyard mechanic to overcome. You have to basically make your own computer and write your own code. Tough task.
 

ldc

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You might be better off doing a swap from a Jaguar s-type type r motor into an LS instead...........?


dc
 

BDHTree

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ldc said:
You might be better off doing a swap from a Jaguar s-type type r motor into an LS instead...........?


dc

Is that a more compatible swap? I know the cars have the same basic design, but are the mounts and stuff the same? and what are the specs? I don't imagine it will be anywhere near those of the cobra motor, plus its gotta be pricy gettin a Jag motor. Also I really wanted a stick, and I know Jags don't really offer that. It would seem to me that it would be just as difficult, with less of a gain. I don't really know much about it though, so if I'm wrong then someone set me straight!
Thanks

P.S. I just wanted to say that this is an awesome forum. I have never been a part of one before, and its really cool to have people that know what they are talking about to ask these questions. Being that I am one of the only guys at my college with an LS nobody I talk to really knows anything about them, and they seem to be rather difficult vehicles.
 

mholhut

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While they would theoreticly mate up perfectly, the PCM for the S-Type R is written in a totally different code than that of any LS. At least, that's what I've heard, so you'd have the same bridge to cross as with a blown 4.6.
 

Quik LS

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mholhut said:
While they would theoreticly mate up perfectly, the PCM for the S-Type R is written in a totally different code than that of any LS. At least, that's what I've heard, so you'd have the same bridge to cross as with a blown 4.6.
right you are - the LS uses the 'black oak' processor while the Jag does not - meaning you would have to deal with the same issues.
 

JoshMcMadMac

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BDHTree said:
Being that I am one of the only guys at my college with an LS nobody I talk to really knows anything about them, and they seem to be rather difficult vehicles.
Yea, I know the feeling. But try drive a 15 year-old car that every thinks is a T-Bird, and put up with questions like, "So does that thing run 12's like the old Mustangs?" and you'll really get tired of it. But, :L and that's all that matters!
 

BDHTree

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Quik LS said:
right you are - the LS uses the 'black oak' processor while the Jag does not - meaning you would have to deal with the same issues.

So has anyone ever overcome this problem? If so then exactly how intensive is it, and can the backyard mechanic pull it off? I would really love to put in a new motor, but this is looking like a lose-lose situation with these PCMs.
 

CaptainZilog

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Well, you have a few options.

1 - Find out how to mate up LS sensor/dash signals with the Cobra's standard PCM. Might not be so hard if sensor output is the same on the LS. Or it might require custom hardware to get the sensor output at the proper levels. According to QuikLS, this is probably not possible without major doing.

2 - Use the original PCM and hack away at the code. Good luck here. Even the old EEV-IV systems in the late 80's/early 90's were pretty intensive. Ford tends to be assholish about releasing PCM code.

3 - Buy one from a company that specializes in custom PCM's.

4 - Just make your own cluster/swap in a Cobra cluster. This would also involve changing EVERYTHING else over to Cobra parts. Might be worth it. However, just swapping the engine harness over alone will be a 40-50 hour job. In spite of that, this is probably your best option.

5 - Roll your own. Most control over engine parameters, but if you don't know much about engine management, I'd stay away from this. You'd have to buy a relatively quick microcontroller/processor, high-speed multiplexor/demultiplexor, flash ROM, data bus, then build the PC Board to hold it all. Then you have to write the engine management code. It isn't impossible, but it sure is hard.
 

Quik LS

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BDHTree said:
So has anyone ever overcome this problem? If so then exactly how intensive is it, and can the backyard mechanic pull it off? I would really love to put in a new motor, but this is looking like a lose-lose situation with these PCMs.
It is a compiled language - meaning that after coding they run it through a 'software compiler' which turns it into machine code. The older car PCMs (ECU) used to keep all the sensor values in a table which was always in the same place in the computers memory - so to reverse engineer it was simple - you would mess with a sensor and watch what memory values change - then you create a 'chip' to plunk the 'tuned' values in that memory location - basically lying to the computer about the sensor readings and what to do in response.

In the LS computer - since the code is compiled - the place where the values are stored in memory change location every time you change the code - so tuners can never get a handle on where the values are. You have to reverse engineer the code.

The challenge will be even if you reversed engineered the code - every time Ford does an update (there are many level of PCM software version - fixing different things) you would have to crack thee code again.

The LS simply doesn't have the sales volumes to make this worth while. The new Mustang apparently uses the same PCM so it will bring the aftermarket in a few years - the question will be: will the version that is cracked be backwards compatible with the LS? the 03/04 LS use a different PCM standard than the 00/01/02 LSes
 

BDHTree

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Quik LS said:
The LS simply doesn't have the sales volumes to make this worth while. The new Mustang apparently uses the same PCM so it will bring the aftermarket in a few years - the question will be: will the version that is cracked be backwards compatible with the LS? the 03/04 LS use a different PCM standard than the 00/01/02 LSes

Well I guess I'm just going to have to be patient and wait for the new stangs if I want to do the motor swap. So are these enginges just generally difficult? Because if I can't mess with the PCM then I couldn't turbo it or anything either right? What kind of preformance mods can you do on these for noticable power increase without messing with the PCM? (keep in mind this is the 3.0, not the v8)
 

Quik LS

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BDHTree said:
Well I guess I'm just going to have to be patient and wait for the new stangs if I want to do the motor swap. So are these enginges just generally difficult? Because if I can't mess with the PCM then I couldn't turbo it or anything either right? What kind of preformance mods can you do on these for noticable power increase without messing with the PCM? (keep in mind this is the 3.0, not the v8)
There is another post here where someone actually got a Turbo going on their LS.

If you can't control the fuel and spark it's gonna be tough....
 

LS4me

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It's MUCH less expensive to just buy the Jag or Mustang. This has been discussed ad-nauseum elsewhere....... The V6 makes pretty good power for just 182ish cubic inches. More than my old '65 Mustang with the 289. Not as much torque, but about as much horsepower. The LS was, and never will be, a 0-60 burner. Take it to it's element, the twisties, and you'll see where the LS shines!
 

JohnnyBz00LS

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BDHTree said:
Has anyone done any engine swaps on their LS, or read anything about them. I am looking into swapping a 4.6L 4 valve Blown cobra V8, but so far I haven't really heard anything about them. Can it be done, and is it worth it? (P.S. I have a V6, so I am in need of power).
Thanks,
Tree

Trade it for a V8. Seriously, much less hassle. If you are in an emissions testing state, your hands are pretty much tied up for engine swaps. If that's not enough, add some NO2. One of our members on LLSOC has run in the 13s w/ NO2.
 

Quik LS

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JohnnyBz00LS said:
One of our members on LLSOC has run in the 13s w/ NO2.
Yep - but now I autocross (and had to take out the nawz to remain in ESP class). The car feels much better on the autox course than the 1/4, and I am not as worried about breaking something.....
 

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