Cooling system---and plastic parts---thoughts and evaluation

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cammerfe

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The other day, on my way across town, I got stuck on an icy hill. I rev'd the engine pretty freely and had a sudden burst of steam from the edge of the hood right in front of the driver's position. My 160K-mile degas bottle had given up the ghost.

Day before yesterday I went out and poured water in to see if I could see the result of a leak. For all I knew there was a chunk blown out of the bottle.

I let it idle for half-an-hour and it never did get above half-way on the gauge. I took it out for a drive around the sub and it went up far enough to make me head home before I had trouble.

I guess it's conceivable that the cap 'popped-off' and everything's still good but I have a quandary. I have a replacement 4.2 Jag engine setting ready to go in as soon as the weather has changed. So there's no way that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on plastic parts for the 3.9.

I did get a lead regarding a degas bottle that's now in my possession. Along with the engine swap I may well make a stainless steel replacement for the factory bottle. And even though I now have a replacement, I'm going to go through a top-up of the coolant in the approved fashion. Even with the incipient over-heat of the drive around the sub there was no sign of a leak.

Your thoughts and comments are, as always, eagerly sought.

KS
 
cammerfe said:
The other day, on my way across town, I got stuck on an icy hill. I rev'd the engine pretty freely and had a sudden burst of steam from the edge of the hood right in front of the driver's position. My 160K-mile degas bottle had given up the ghost.

Day before yesterday I went out and poured water in to see if I could see the result of a leak. For all I knew there was a chunk blown out of the bottle.

I let it idle for half-an-hour and it never did get above half-way on the gauge. I took it out for a drive around the sub and it went up far enough to make me head home before I had trouble.

I guess it's conceivable that the cap 'popped-off' and everything's still good but I have a quandary. I have a replacement 4.2 Jag engine setting ready to go in as soon as the weather has changed. So there's no way that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on plastic parts for the 3.9.

I did get a lead regarding a degas bottle that's now in my possession. Along with the engine swap I may well make a stainless steel replacement for the factory bottle. And even though I now have a replacement, I'm going to go through a top-up of the coolant in the approved fashion. Even with the incipient over-heat of the drive around the sub there was no sign of a leak.

Your thoughts and comments are, as always, eagerly sought.

KS
Click to expand...

It starts out letting in air causing the overheat. Then the crack expands letting coolant out. I would replace the tank as soon as you can; assuming this is your daily driver. The drive around the sub is your answer.
 
as mentioned, the problem is that when these plastic parts fail, the micro cracks that form (usually) are so small that they just start letting air leak in a little bit before any coolant will leak out. then coolant will leak out as steam, and then if it gets worse enough, straight liquid coolant will start to pour out.

there is also the chance that the micro cracks just weaken the hell out of all the plastic and it just fails hard all at once and dumps all of your coolant out.



your problem seems like the former.
 
cammerfe said:
The other day, on my way across town, I got stuck on an icy hill. I rev'd the engine pretty freely and had a sudden burst of steam from the edge of the hood right in front of the driver's position. My 160K-mile degas bottle had given up the ghost.

Day before yesterday I went out and poured water in to see if I could see the result of a leak. For all I knew there was a chunk blown out of the bottle.

I let it idle for half-an-hour and it never did get above half-way on the gauge. I took it out for a drive around the sub and it went up far enough to make me head home before I had trouble.

I guess it's conceivable that the cap 'popped-off' and everything's still good but I have a quandary. I have a replacement 4.2 Jag engine setting ready to go in as soon as the weather has changed. So there's no way that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on plastic parts for the 3.9.

I did get a lead regarding a degas bottle that's now in my possession. Along with the engine swap I may well make a stainless steel replacement for the factory bottle. And even though I now have a replacement, I'm going to go through a top-up of the coolant in the approved fashion. Even with the incipient over-heat of the drive around the sub there was no sign of a leak.

Your thoughts and comments are, as always, eagerly sought.

KS
Click to expand...

There are many feeds on this. I curently have zipties holding my leak. Working great for now ahahha
 
My uncertainty is based on having the gauge going to the upper register and still having no sign of a leak; thus the thought of the cap 'popping-off'.

BTW, the replacement bottle I acquired has the cap and one 'pig-tail' hose and seems thick and sturdy. It originally came from 'Tom Auto Parts' in Phoenix and, from the shipper in the bottom of the box it cost $59.99. Since it was setting on the shelf, I got it for considerably less. The cap, at least, seems to be a factory-duplicate.

KS
 
I have searched overheating threads and read and still not finished, replace seals, plastics thermostat, hoses.....fill and burp. In a nut shell. Ya get to know your car....the more you know. lol
 
I very much appreciate the input here. Several thoughts occur. First, the system is pressurized and, as such, there would be a leak, outward, of coolant and not a leak inward of air.

On another note, I vaguely remember an extensive thread of the steps necessary to get the air out of the system after a refill. But reading, over the last few days, seems to suggest only that you fill it at the degas bottle, run it until the top radiator hose gets hot, let the car cool off and top it up---again at the degas bottle. An I missing something?

Edit to add---
I now have the old bottle out. Broke five of the six bolts that hold the cowl brace so I see a drill-out session in the near future. Replacements will be stainless with anti-seize.

In order to get the bottle out I cut the end off the pigtail hose right next to the bottle. I'll use a butt-connector fitting to hook the hoses together. Am I correct in thinking the one hose at the top with the odd-looking fitting in it is some sort of air bleeder? Looks to be a plastic screw-head in the end of it. Any comment eagerly sought.

Thanx for your help!!!!

KS
 
Last edited:
Cammerfe wrote: `In order to get the bottle out I cut the end off the pigtail hose right next to the bottle. I'll use a butt-connector fitting to hook the hoses together. Am I correct in thinking the one hose at the top with the odd-looking fitting in it is some sort of air bleeder? Looks to be a plastic screw-head in the end of it.'

The screw in the hose is a bleeder screw. When you do the detailed bleeding instructions,you will remove that screw as it tells you. My manual has those instructions intermingled with the V6 instructions,so I just blue circled every step that said `all engines' and those that pertained to the V8 bleed. I bled it twice to be sure.
You need to take the engine cover off so you can remove the thermostat lid,called the ``engine fill' lid. This can be confusing. It's NOT the Degas bottle lid. You have to do it exactly,just as Joe said.
On the second bleed,I did not remove the engine fill lid,but I loosened it to make sure it was full.
I hope the degas was your only leak, because if you run pressurized,you will have to be LEAK-PROOF. I don't worry about it sucking air back in because there's almost nil suction with the cap loosened. don-ohio :)^)
 
joegr said:
The system pressurizes as the engine heats up, but when the engine cools down, it can go to a slight vacuum. It can and does suck air in through the micro cracks.
You really must follow the fill and bleed procedure to the letter. It's only been posted about a hundred times.
Gen I: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/tech/drain-lincoln-ls-cooling-system/
Gen II (V8 only): http://deneau.info/ls/s6x~us~en~file=s6x33004.htm~gen~ref.htm#extract_142
Click to expand...


Don't you just feel like :Bang:Bang sometimes...
 
To Joe and LS4me---

I very much appreciate your input. But one of the things I learned early on is that the built-in 'search' function at LVC sucks. I could literally take several 24 hour periods going through what's to be found. One might call it an embarrassment of riches. So I first 'googled' several likely key words and key phrases. What I put in the posts above was what I gleaned from that effort. And google gave me NO references to LVC. I asked honestly for input so I guess I can't complain at snotty comments and getting dissed. Joe, in particular, goes out of his way to be of help on many topics. And I do appreciate it.

Thank you!

KS
 
It was my thought that by googling key words I might get input from other sources than just LVC.

I thank you for your input.

KS
 
cammerfe said:
To Joe and LS4me---

I very much appreciate your input. But one of the things I learned early on is that the built-in 'search' function at LVC sucks. I could literally take several 24 hour periods going through what's to be found. One might call it an embarrassment of riches. So I first 'googled' several likely key words and key phrases. What I put in the posts above was what I gleaned from that effort. And google gave me NO references to LVC. I asked honestly for input so I guess I can't complain at snotty comments and getting dissed. Joe, in particular, goes out of his way to be of help on many topics. And I do appreciate it.

Thank you!

KS
Click to expand...

Actually.... This was more directed at the hundreds of "my overheating problem is different" threads.
 
Yeah, searching can be rough. I have spent as much time searching as wrenching on this car. Thanks for all of your patience and input. I have learned a lot here and hope to return the favor in time.
 
Another Google trick is to place a minus (-) in front of terms you don't want to be included. It works in many other sites, such as eBay. "Black gloss vinyl" brings up many ebay hits, mostly with a carbon fiber print on them as it fits the search term. "black gloss vinyl -carbon -fiber -cf" removes nearly all CF results and leaves me with normal black vinyl
 
cammerfe said:
Along with the engine swap I may well make a stainless steel replacement for the factory bottle.

KS
Click to expand...

I'd shy away from stainless and go with aluminum so you're not introducing large areas of dissimilar metals. Also make sure you mimic the various chambers so that your tank still serves its degas function (along with some form of 16psi blow-off).

You could probably anodize an aluminum tank inside and out and never worry about corrosion, plus make it whatever color you want.

Having a sight added to easily tell the level might not be a bad idea either.
 
A common item at the hot rod catalog stores is a tubular overflow tank made of 3" stainless steel. Shortening one to fit the available space in an LS shouldn't be too much of a challenge. The fact that I'd be using it for its intended purpose probably obviates the concern you mention. I'd suppose the chosen alloy would eliminate corrosion concerns.

Thanks for the thought.

KS
 
cammerfe said:
A common item at the hot rod catalog stores is a tubular overflow tank made of 3" stainless steel. Shortening one to fit the available space in an LS shouldn't be too much of a challenge. The fact that I'd be using it for its intended purpose probably obviates the concern you mention. I'd suppose the chosen alloy would eliminate corrosion concerns.

Thanks for the thought.

KS
Click to expand...
So, how would you separate air and steam from the coolant in the engine? The degas bottle on the LS is not an overflow tank.
 
Joe, let's not get too hung up on labels. The 'degas' bottle has a baffle-shape inside that could be readily replicated---in function---with an SS sheetmetal slip-in that could be spotwelded in place. Someone here made metal replacements from sheet. I'd simply use the item I mentioned to cut down on the welding required. There isn't anything magic about the factory item.

KS
 
Not, it's not magic, but it's not just a single chamber tank either. In addition to the baffles, there is also tube...
Yes, it can be done. It just doesn't seem to be worth it as opposed to replacing the factory tank every six or so years. How many more years do you expect to keep your LS. If you are doing this for racing, you're adding weight.
 
Land speed racing isn't driven by weight issues.

I have a 'back-door' relationship with some who who have participated in road-racing on an extended scale. I had a discussion with one who 'has the answers' in regard to the use of the AJ engine in competition.

I asked him what they did in regard to a fill-spot, expansion tank, degas point for their race cars. He told me that a swirl-design tank such as the oil tank in a dry-sump oiling system is unnecessary, since there is a much less likely incidence of foaming in a cooling system. Air and steam actually separate quite readily from coolant if given half a chance. The factory bottle is another instance of the over-engineering we, here, are all-too-familiar with in the LS.

He went on to say that the design of the water-jackets in an AJ engine makes it quite possible to develop steam-pockets in various places and the ultimate 'cure' is to vent those positions. He has information he'll dig out and send to me as to how to go about accomplishing this.

Undoubtedly it's over-kill to do this for a mostly-street-driven car and I'll, for now, install the bottle I just acquired. I may well do some variation of the venting, and the fabricated bottle I referenced, at the time I replace the engine.

More later.

KS
 
Just put another brand new OEM degas bottle in it, why does everything have to be so complicated, like honestly what are you gaining?

New OEM degas bottle = DONE
 
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