Twelve reasons

As a whole, capital gains are not taxed twice shag - every time you sell stock - no one has paid taxes on the gain you have realized... so why are you insisting that they have been. Dividends are different than when you realize gains from buying and selling. Keep the lower tax rate for dividends - but, when you get actual gains from selling capital (which is the real definition of capital gains) there isn't double taxation...

And if you want to claim lower taxes for the tech boom in the 90s - then we can also blame the boom and bust cycle on lowering capital gains taxes - do you really want to go down that road shag -

And once again - now that taxes for capitals gains are at a historic low - why aren't we seeing a surge in venture capital - its the market..

It is the market that drives venture capital baby... Taxes do play a part - but 20% isn't going to scare away venture capitalists...
 
Oh, as to Bush's capital gains rate cuts, it might be more instructive to look at the entire pattern of capital gains revenue instead of a static summation of his entire 8 years in office. The former is more apt to reveal truth while the latter is more apt to conceal it.

Remember, Bush took office with a recession in place and then the economy got dealt a pretty good blow on 9/11. Here are the numbers I found for various years (dollar figures are in millions)...
  • 2001 revenue: $65,668 (3.4% of GDP)
  • 2002 revenue: $49,122 (2.52% of GDP)
  • 2003 revenue: $51,340 (2.9% of GDP)
  • 2004 revenue: $73,213 (4.21% of GDP)
  • 2005 revenue: $102,174 (5.46% of GDP)
  • 2006 revenue: $117,793 (5.96% of GDP)
  • 2007 revenue: $137,141 (6.57% of GDP)
  • 2008 revenue: $68,791 (3.46% of GDP)
[While percent of GDP is a bad measure, I included it to compare the Foxy's single statistic summarizing the Bush administration with the overall pattern it conveniently avoids]

These figures aren't adjusted for inflation, but even doing that, the trend in the numbers would not change.

The capital gains rate was dropped from 20% to 15% in 2003. The next year saw a significant increase in revenue that continued until the housing bust in 2008.

Context matters. But context is avoided with statements like, "since Bush lowered capital gains tax, capital gains tax revenue has plummeted" that only look at statistical averages over 8 years instead of actual patterns and real world consequences of policy.

Foxy, you like to castigate me as some "ivory towered elite" too caught up in theory to see the real world for what it is. But you are making all the classic mistakes of those ivory towered elites in their reasoning and avoidance of real world results. Relying on averages and abstract statistics instead of looking at the overall trend is one of the classic ways that elites avoid reality and truth.
 
As a whole, capital gains are not taxed twice shag - every time you sell stock - no one has paid taxes on the gain you have realized... so why are you insisting that they have been.

You must really love attacking those straw men. ;)

Should ever single source of income be differentiated and taxed? There are a number of problems with this.

First, how do you differentiate between sources of income in a manner that is not ultimately arbitrary?

Second, should that source of income be taxed even if the gains from it are relatively minimal but the gains from not taxing it would be much greater for the economy? For instance, this study estimates that a cut of 10% in the corporate tax would result in a 1-2% increase in annual growth rate.

Dividends are different than when you realize gains from buying and selling.

Dividends subject to a capital gains tax because it is a return on your investment.

And if you want to claim lower taxes for the tech boom in the 90s - then we can also blame the boom and bust cycle on lowering capital gains taxes - do you really want to go down that road shag

I would LOVE to talk about the boom and bust cycle. However, I can tell you right now that you will not be able to provide any logical explanation as to how the boom and bust cycle is caused by lower capital gains (at least not one that stands up to critical examination and empirical evidence in context).

The Austrian Business Cycle is really the best and most accurate explanation for the boom and bust cycle (especially with regards to the housing bubble). But that would involve talking about monetary policy and I doubt you are all that interested in that.

FYI; it is largely due to my study of the Austrian Business Cycle that I say any genuine recovery starts with savings. Otherwise we get mal-investment leading to the boom and bust cycle.

And once again - now that taxes for capitals gains are at a historic low - why aren't we seeing a surge in venture capital - its the market..

Your right.

We should expect consistently low capital gains rates to randomly create surges in the markets, not simply when they are first lowered and the incentive structure changes.

I mean, it's not like there are any other factors in play right now that could be creating disincentives to business expansion and keeping our economy in a faux "recovery". :rolleyes:
Heritage-Chart.jpg

nytimesdebt.jpg
 
I know how dividends are taxed - and they are the only part of the capital gains game that is taxed twice.

If I own part of a small company - the company pays taxes on the profits each year, if I get dividends from that company (a portion of the profit) - I will pay taxes on that dividend - there is the double taxation. However, when I sell my part of the company at a profit - that has never been taxed - however, it will be taxed at only 15% - the double taxation thing is false in that case.

My ownership is a direct capital investment, and gains realized on it is never taxed until I sell it.

That is why capital gains is different than dividends and should be taxed accordingly.

Mal-investment shag - in capitalism - someone is gaming the system, tell me it isn't so... ;)

And your numbers about taxes paid on capital gains almost exactly matches the gain in the stock market... The market is the biggest reason we have gains and losses in capital gains tax revenue.

djia2000s.png


So, there are a huge array of reasons that capital is and isn't invested, correct shag (your illustration of obama care for instance)? A 5% tax increase (over 3 years) isn't going to affect capital investment in this country shag.

I certainly think that capital investment should be taxed less, but to make it such a huge difference between how we tax 'work' (ordinary income) and how we tax 'investment' (capital gains) creates class distinction.
 
I certainly think that capital investment should be taxed less, but to make it such a huge difference between how we tax 'work' (ordinary income) and how we tax 'investment' (capital gains) creates class distinction.

More accurately, it allows opportunists to create the illusion of class distinctions.

Most any economist will tell you that corporate taxes, more than any other taxes, have a profound effect on the economy. Your chart confirms that theory as does all the other evidence I have provided.

A change in the capital gains rate creates an change in the incentive structure to invest. This leads to business expansion and the creation of new business, growing the economy and eventually leading to higher capital gains revenue.

The correlation you keep pointing to only confirms everything I have been saying.

There are also even more indirect effects for other sources of tax revenue that would occur at an even greater rate if corporate taxation were abolished.

In his famous book, Economics in One Lesson, Henry Hazlitt pointed out:
The are of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of an act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups​
Long before him, french economist Frédéric Bastiat talked about what was seen in the economy and what was unseen.

Bad economics focuses on the immediate, direct, seen consequences while failing to notice and consider unseen, indirect and longer term consequences.

Foxy, I think you are practicing bad economics by failing to account for the incentive structures created by taxes and how those effect the market.

More broadly, though, I think most people calling for higher taxation on the rich, whether through corporate taxation or some other means are practicing bad economics.

With regard to corporate taxes, it is worth remembering that corporations don't pay taxes - only people pay taxes. When a tax is levied on a business, it is levied against the business owners. Business owners are not simply the top 1%, but most of the working population because of their retirement investments.

It is those people who, as business owners pay those taxes either directly or indirectly, unless they can shift that tax burden. The truth is that this tax burden is most always shifted. Typically it results in higher costs for the consumer. Failing that, it falls on lower wages for the worker. In short, they fall on the middle class.

Also keep in mind, the rich have the most means at their disposal to avoid taxes. These are not illegal means either. They can invest in offshore accounts, have would-be dividends simply reinvested, simply go without income for a time, etc. No laws can change this and politicians, at any rate, wouldn't want to change it. Most of the various "loopholes" were created by the loudest proponents of class warfare as they game the system.

As this article points out;
[The creation of a corporate tax alongside an income tax] has had two deeply pernicious effects. One, it allowed the very rich to avoid taxes by playing the two systems against each other. When the top personal income tax rate soared to 75% in World War I, for instance, thousands of the rich simply incorporated their holdings in order to pay the much lower corporate tax rate.

There has since been a sort of evolutionary arms race, as tax lawyers and accountants came up with ever new ways to game the system, and Congress endlessly added to the tax code to forbid or regulate the new strategies. The income tax act of 1913 had been 14 pages long. The Revenue Act of 1942 was 208 pages long, 78% of them devoted to closing or defining loopholes. It has only gotten worse.

The other pernicious consequence of the separate corporate and personal income taxes has been a field day for demagogues and the misguided to claim that the rich are not paying their "fair share." Warren Buffett recently claimed that he had paid only $6.9 million in taxes last year. But Berkshire Hathaway, of which Mr. Buffett owns 30%, paid $5.6 billion in corporate income taxes. Were Berkshire Hathaway a Subchapter S corporation and exempt from corporate income taxes, Mr. Buffett's personal tax bill would have been 231 times higher, at $1.6 billion.​
Inevitably, higher tax rates, whether it be on capital gains or on income, will eventually fall on the middle class. All a higher tax rate does is to create an incentive for the rich to be more creative in avoiding taxes.

In fact, when tax rates were as high as 70% and even 90%, it was common for people exposed to those higher rates to game the system in their favor. This is reflected in the share of the tax burden they shouldered; much less then when rates were lowered under Reagan and since then. There was much more shifting of the tax burden when rates were higher then when rates are lower.

In short, any increase in taxes ultimately falls on the middle class. Bad economics misses this because it fails to look at incentive structures and it fails to consider what is indirect and unseen. Bad economics is basically exceedingly short sighted. But, it can confirm emotional biases rooted in envy.

There is the added consequence that as the rich look to avoid taxes, investment capital drops and, ultimately, the economy suffers, hitting the middle class hardest. Instead of looking to grow their wealth, the rich only look to protect it and this means a stagnant economy and, ultimately, a stagnant class structure. Ironically, the policies called for by class warfare end up creating a static class structure and enshrining the rich and powerful in place while creating barriers for the less well off to move up.

This is why we are seeing the rise of the tea party and the occupy movements. While they promote different fixes and diagnose the problems differently, they both see a very static class structure with the rich and powerful exploiting the system while preventing any real opportunity for those not as well off. The loudest voices promoting this class warfare crap are usually the worst offenders in the exploiting.

Really the difference between the occupy movement and the tea party movement is the difference between Marxist class theory and Austrian class theory.
 
Mal-investment shag - in capitalism - someone is gaming the system, tell me it isn't so... ;)

Look up "mal-investment" and "Austrian Business Cycle".

The 2008 housing bust is practically a textbook case of what the Austrians were predicting almost a century before.

Unfortunately, we are only doubling down on the same policies that got us to this point.
 
More broadly, though, I think most people calling for higher taxation on the rich, whether through corporate taxation or some other means are practicing bad economics.
Not higher - equal - tax all income equally - 18% flat tax... period. Once again - the rich will never go for it - because they largely depend on capital gains... it isn't 'bad' economics - it is fair economics.

A change in the capital gains rate creates an change in the incentive structure to invest. This leads to business expansion and the creation of new business, growing the economy and eventually leading to higher capital gains revenue.

No shag - if that were the case we would have seen huge expansions in business in the 2000s - when taxes were at historic lows - but we didn't - business contracted, jobs were sloughed off, the economy shrunk. There is a balance - and extremely low taxes aren't balancing out the rest of the equation.

In fact, when tax rates were as high as 70% and even 90%, it was common for people exposed to those higher rates to game the system in their favor. This is reflected in the share of the tax burden they shouldered; much less then when rates were lowered under Reagan and since then. There was much more shifting of the tax burden when rates were higher then when rates are lower.
The reason the tax burden was less (in 'share') for the wealthy historically was because they held less of the wealth in this country, and the difference between those who have and those who don't have quite as much wasn't as great as it is now. Income difference has rarely been this great - even during the age of the Rockefellers and Carnegies the richest 1% of Americans earned roughly 18% of all income. Today, the top 1% account for 24% of all income. That is why the rich pay more - they have more shag... lots more.

This is why we are seeing the rise of the tea party and the occupy movements. While they promote different fixes and diagnose the problems differently, they both see a very static class structure with the rich and powerful exploiting the system while preventing any real opportunity for those not as well off. The loudest voices promoting this class warfare crap are usually the worst offenders in the exploiting.

I thought you liked the tea party shag - when they are just proponents of class warfare as well?
 
Not higher - equal - tax all income equally - 18% flat tax... period. Once again - the rich will never go for it - because they largely depend on capital gains... it isn't 'bad' economics - it is fair economics.

It is bad economics because it fails to look at the unintended consequences.

I have already pointed to studies that do account for those unseen consequences and conclude that the optimal tax rate for capital gains is zero.

That may not be politically feasible but it is economically realistic.

Shifting of the tax burden, disincentivizing savings and investment, double taxation and all the market distortions created by those things are avoided.

No shag - if that were the case we would have seen huge expansions in business in the 2000s

...or we would have seen a lot of that increased capital flow into the markets that seemed most lucrative with the least amount of risk; housing and construction.

It really was the perfect storm; low cap gains = more investment capital. Freddie, Fannie and the various financial tools built up around it personalized reward and socialized risk. Top that off with the Fed lowering interest rates to "create" a boom and you have the classic Austrian boom and bust cycle.

The reason the tax burden was less (in 'share') for the wealthy historically was because they held less of the wealth in this country

That is the typical Leftist shtick, often citing the Saez/Piketty study, but, as James Pethokoukis points out, that is not really accurate. In fact, one of the study's authors, Saez, refuted that with another study he did where he looked at actual wealth (not just income) and arrived at the following conclusion:
“Our series show that there has been a sharp reduction in wealth concentration over the 20th century: the top 1 percent wealth share was close to 40 percent in the early decades of the century but has fluctuated between 20 and 25 percent over the last three decades.”​
wealthinequality1.jpg
Pethokoukis concludes:
But the big point here...is that inequality hasn’t exploded. The top 1 percent aren’t doing abnormally well by U.S. historical standards. And that if you want to go back to the Gilded Era of equality, you need to time travel to the 1930s and 1970s—two of the worst decades ever for the U.S. economy.​
In fact, the co-author of that second study Wojciech Kopczuk, says:
“There is no compelling evidence that wealth concentration has significantly increased, in fact it does not appear to have changed much since the early 1980s.”​
The fact is that a 70-90% tax rate gives a MASSIVE incentive for hiding income and tax avoidance (including less than legal means). The massive tax avoidance and even tax cheating was one of the worst kept secrets of the time. The Saez/Piketty findings are consistent with that tax cheating. Unsurprisingly, the 90% tax rate was full of loopholes to avoid paying those taxes. No one actually paid a 90% tax rate.

I thought you liked the tea party shag - when they are just proponents of class warfare as well?

Class warfare is a uniquely Marxist rhetorical trick. It does overlap with populism but the two are not the same.
 
Shag - didn't you like the tea party? However now you are saying they are using the 'class warfare' pointy stick, what happened? Are they marxists?

Since Reagan got into office wealth inequality has been tipping to the 1% - so that right now it is about 33% of the wealth that is concentrated in the top 1% of this country shag - I don't know where your graph is getting its numbers - but it is wrong.

USwealthdistribution.gif


And it is not economically feasible to have capital gains taxed at 0% - because you would have no workers just speculators - an entire nation built on hedge funds - it would collapse instantly.
 
Shag - didn't you like the tea party? However now you are saying they are using the 'class warfare' pointy stick, what happened? Are they marxists?

Again with the straw men? I thought I made the distinction rather clear.

Class warfare = Marxism and populism, but populism does not necessarily equal class warfare.

Also, I gave the source of my numbers by linking to the studies they came from.

Your study on the other hand, uses another of those bogus statistics; household income (or, in this case, household wealth).
"Income comparisons using household statistics are far less reliable indicators of standards of living than are individual income data because households vary in size while an individual always means one person. Studies of what people actually consume -- that is, their standard of living -- show substantial increases over the years, even among the poor, which is more in keeping with a 51 percent increase in real per capita income than with a 6 percent increase in real household income. But household income statistics present golden opportunities for fallacies to flourish, and those opportunities have been seized by many in the media, in politics, and in academia." -Thomas Sowell​
Households vary in size throughout history (typically getting larger the further back you go), among different ethnic groups, and among different income groups. Also, the ratio of income earners to non-income earners vary between households and among the different income groups. It is a very misleading statistic that only confuses the issue. One last thing; often those stats don't include government benefits, further removing it from being an accurate reflection of the real world.

And it is not economically feasible to have capital gains taxed at 0% - because you would have no workers just speculators - an entire nation built on hedge funds - it would collapse instantly.

You care to explain how that would happen? It is easy to give a plausible sounding assertion (at least in passing) of what would happen. It is much harder to connect the dots of point "A" to point "B" and have that logic withstand critical scrutiny.

As another article I linked to in an earlier post pointed out, we didn't have any corporate tax until the early 20th century.

I assume the entire industrial revolution was simply a nation of speculators, "an entire nation built on hedge funds" and it "instantly" collapsed, right? ;)
 
And we didn't have income tax until Lincoln shag -

We didn't have corporate taxes until 1913

So, no, the industrial revolution was financed by a fairly small, exclusive group, there were very few 'working class' people who speculated in the market - unlike today, where most retirement funds are tied into the market, and a very large group of people are 'speculating' in the market.

There is a balance shag -

Oh, since you like Wojciech Kopczuk... I can certainly agree with him as well... (from a 2009 debate - he has apparently
'seen the light' shaggy, your stuff is way old...)

The last part is the hardest: what is the appropriate balance between the desire to equate and inefficiency that it induces. It is probably a foregone conclusion that some increases in taxation for the wealthy are in order—inequality has indeed increased and the cost of taxation likely has not. However, some excesses of inequality increases may be going away—finance industry has been heavily represented at the top of the distribution and one might suspect that its role will decline in the near future—so that heavily increasing taxation now in response to that kind of “undesirable” income concentration growth may amount to correcting the problem that no longer exists with side-effects that are still very much there. That inequality growth has been driven by the newly wealthy—those who are entrepreneurial and educated (though, also by those who were lucky)—should also give some pause to anyone who is waving the inequality argument.

Taxes are a balancing act - if you create an upper class that pays no 'income' taxes (without capital gains tax, Romney would have paid no federal taxes), you are just begging for revolution. Let them eat cake shag?
 
The income tax went away after the civil war and didn't return until 1913.

The industrial revolution is another area where a there has been a lot of Leftist revisionist history to make it fit the Marxist exploitation narrative. The truth is far different.
One of the reasons that so many falsehoods and fallacies had come to surround our understanding of the Industrial Revolution, according to Hayek, was that the historians who had studied the matter had been blinded by their own ideological preconceptions. Many of them were Marxists, who believed as part of their creed that industrialization simply had to have made the workers miserable. As Hayek puts it: “ecause the theoretical preconceptions which guided them postulated that the rise of capitalism must have been detrimental to the working classes, it is not surprising that they found what they were looking for.” In short, they had not approached the evidence in the spirit of impartial rationality that befits a scholar, but rather with the ideological ax to grind that characterizes the propagandist.

It was the industrial revolution that saw the standard of living start to rise for all and the real world disparity between the rich and poor start to shrink. The industrial revolution is where the middle class started to grow and static class structures started to become more dynamic. This is because self made men looked to grow their wealth and, in the process, lowered costs (in the process, increasing real wages) and increased the material standard of living for all. If you look at the big picture of history, this is undeniable.

Of course, ideological revisionists like Howard Zinn always hide these facts and those ideological revisionists tend to be popular among Marxist ivory tower elites.

As to the "balancing" point, you are expecting a balance between a political and economic concern that, in the long run, are not compatible. Equalizing is not compatible with economic efficiency.

In promoting equalizing, you are discarding the idea of treating everyone equally which you earlier said you support. If the tax code is meant to equalize it will necessarily have to treat everyone unequally. It will create an incentive structure that discourages risk taking and investment of those at the top while encouraging leeches on the system at the bottom.

There will always be some who feel they are less equal and need to be made more equal so the focus on equalizing will inevitably grow to override concerns for economic efficiency. The two CAN NOT be balanced in the long run. Once equalizing is accepted as a legitimate goal, it will inevitably crowd out concerns for efficiency.

You have implies you don't support equalizing in the tax code, but now you are saying we have to balance two concerns that are incompatible and ultimately give way to equalizing. Which is it?
 
Shag - I wasn't going along any narrative with regards to the Industrial Revolution - other than pointing out that it wasn't the common worker that invested in those companies (because we don't consider 'work' to be an investment).

So, you can quit espousing all the anti-Marxist rhetoric - there isn't any need to go there...

As to the "balancing" point, you are expecting a balance between a political and economic concern that, in the long run, are not compatible. Equalizing is not compatible with economic efficiency.

And, unlike you and your ivory tower world, know what people will do If the government doesn't do some 'equalizing' of taxes then you will have revolution - sorry - that is just the way it is going to be. The people who work for a living will see that Romney isn't paying one nickel (if you go with your 'tax capital gains at zero percent), while they are paying thousands. However, Romney is living in houses (plural) that have bathrooms that are bigger than some people's houses... People aren't going to say - wow, he made it, good for him, and because he made it he shouldn't have to contribute any money to the government that the middle class is now supporting.

Talk about creating class dividers...

Won't work shag.

In promoting equalizing, you are discarding the idea of treating everyone equally which you earlier said you support. If the tax code is meant to equalize it will necessarily have to treat everyone unequally. It will create an incentive structure that discourages risk taking and investment of those at the top while encouraging leeches on the system at the bottom.

How would taxing every source of income at 18% discourage risk taking- you can work, you can lead a hedge fund, you get taxed the same. What it does encourage is work. I realize that might be antithesis to your world - but, work has its own risks, it should not be penalized because it has 'different' risks than investment.

There will always be some who feel they are less equal and need to be made more equal so the focus on equalizing will inevitably grow to override concerns for economic efficiency. The two CAN NOT be balanced in the long run. Once equalizing is accepted as a legitimate goal, it will inevitably crowd out concerns for efficiency.
Yep-we are all 'unequal' in some areas - but in taxation, why? Why create a caste system with taxation shag - it is the government engineering behavior - I thought you hated the government engineering behavior.

You have implies you don't support equalizing in the tax code, but now you are saying we have to balance two concerns that are incompatible and ultimately give way to equalizing. Which is it?

I thought I indicated that we should go to a flat tax... realistically I don't ever see that happening (once again, the rich, who really have the opportunity to buy elections currently would never go for a flat tax).

In the real world - we need to at least up the tax for capital gains to the Clinton rates. We tried 15% - it didn't work, and it is creating animosity. Admit the experiment was a failure- go back, upping the tax on capital gains slightly over 3 years, go back to 20%, and lets just leave it for 20 years - that way people will know what to expect.
 
know what people will do If the government doesn't do some 'equalizing' of taxes then you will have revolution


The only side demanding equalization in the tax code is the Progressives and the Occupy movement. They are the only ones implicitly threatening revolution. They are the only ones who have actually gotten violent (both in Britain and in America).

You agree with their call for equalization?

In the real world - we need to at least up the tax for capital gains to the Clinton rates. We tried 15%

Yet the record shows that it clearly did work. This has been shown numerous times and in numerous was in this thread alone.

Again, are you trying to legitimize through repetition a claim you cannot honestly justify?
 
The only side demanding equalization in the tax code is the Progressives and the Occupy movement. They are the only ones implicitly threatening revolution. They are the only ones who have actually gotten violent (both in Britain and in America).

You agree with their call for equalization?

Are you living in a cave, it has been all over the news how Americans are asking for higher taxes for the wealthy (and they can't be all progressives and occupiers shag)... Here - CNN did a poll about this -

One of the best questions...

Taxes on wealthy people should be kept low because they invest their money in the private sector and that helps the economy and creates jobs.
Only 34% thought this was a good statement
Taxes on wealthy people should be kept high so the government can use their money for programs to help lower-income people
62% thought this is the way we should go
No opinion 5%

And another from Bloomberg, even Republicans (who last I checked were neither progressives or part of the Occupy movement) back higher taxes for the wealthy...
Fifty-three percent of self-identified Republicans back an increase in taxes on households making more than $250,000, a sentiment at odds with the party’s presidential candidates, who will meet tonight in a Bloomberg-Washington Post-sponsored debate focused on economic issues.

Yet the record shows that it clearly did work. This has been shown numerous times and in numerous was in this thread alone.

Still in the cave - it did not work - the 2000s were a step backwards for middle class America - most people didn't see any difference in their financial snapshot for the entire decade... You can put up chart after chart - but lowering the tax rate on capital gains didn't create private sector jobs in the 2000 - do you know how many private sector jobs were created during Bush's tenure - none - he lost 673,000 private sector jobs - great report card on lowering capital gains taxes so new jobs can be created - bunk.
 
Mr Wiggl3s, do you not realize comic exaggeration when you see it?

Also, how are taxes "subjective" and how is that relevant to the point being raised? Are you contesting the notion that government makes more off a gallon of gas then oil companies?

What other "straw men" are in there? Is it simply the exaggeration that makes it a straw man or the more basic notion being alluding to in each statement that is the "straw man"? This is important because the former is simply a cheap excuse to dismiss while the latter is a very legitimate point.

Can you provide some sort of proof of these "straw men" of which you speak?
Taxes are subjective to each state.

The post as a whole is the strawman.
 
Are you living in a cave, it has been all over the news how Americans are asking for higher taxes for the wealthy (and they can't be all progressives and occupiers shag)... Here - CNN did a poll about this -

One of the best questions...

Taxes on wealthy people should be kept low because they invest their money in the private sector and that helps the economy and creates jobs.
Only 34% thought this was a good statement
Taxes on wealthy people should be kept high so the government can use their money for programs to help lower-income people
62% thought this is the way we should go
No opinion 5%

So if you subtract the 47% who pay no federal income taxes from the 62%
for the obvious conflict of interest you get only 15% of taxpayers supporting high taxes vs "only" 34% of taxpayers opposed.
Or put another way 2/3 of taxpayers oppose high taxation and the use of more of their money to help lower income people:p:D

It all depends on what is is ;)

Even without this view of it 34% supporting low taxes on the rich is a very high number considering the rich are only 1% of the population!
 
CTLS - why did you ignore the Republican only poll - a poll that still showed that a majority of Americans want to tax the wealthy more - and all republicans work and would never, ever live off government money...

So that sort of blows your idea about how it is the 'takers' skewing the numbers...;)
 
Foxy, I know you like to create a moving target, but are you incapable of giving a straight answer?

I never asked what "the rest of the country" thinks.

I asked about you.

Do you agree with the Occupy movement's call for equalizing?
 
BTW, polls from news sources tend to be worthless (this includes CNN and Bloomberg) because they typically inject bias into the polls (often through skewed sampling). Polls like those are more aimed at shaping public opinion than reflecting it. Besides, most of the public is highly ignorant of how taxes are set up and the economics surrounding them, making a demagogue's job very easy.
 
CTLS - why did you ignore the Republican only poll - a poll that still showed that a majority of Americans want to tax the wealthy more - and all republicans work and would never, ever live off government money...

So that sort of blows your idea about how it is the 'takers' skewing the numbers...;)


Practically speaking what 2/3rds of Americans believe or want on this issue of paying taxes is merely a wish list and doesn't carry much weight.
Unfortunately,we have to compete in this life for a piece of this world so we can't all be rich.
It's the minority who rule and rich is usually defined as someone who makes more money than you ;)
We all want those richer than us to pay more taxes.:rolleyes:
I feel as a small business I'm being hosed paying a 35% tax rate plus 9% state while plutocrats pay 15% in low or no tax states.
I understand the feelings of helplessness, jealousy and inequality but in the inequality in the 1% not the bottom Occupy crowd.
45% tax rates with the government demanding it's pound of flesh before a company gets paid are very stifling to building a thriving expanding business in the US.
As a result fewer American made products and the jobs that go with them have margins capable of sustaining such taxation to be worthwhile to take a risk on.
 
45% tax rates with the government demanding it's pound of flesh before a company gets paid are very stifling to building a thriving expanding business in the US.

You must be some ivory towered egghead with no real world experience to think such absurd things.

Probably racist too. :D
 
You must be some ivory towered egghead with no real world experience to think such absurd things.

Probably racist too. :D

That sounds like something some here might say about you LOL!

We must be twin sons of different mothers or something ;):cool:
 

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