Another overheating problem

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NickyCapo

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Quick recap:
Mid May, 2017, car over heated. Popped the hood and saw some overspray. Upon inspecting the vehicle, the tube assembly had a small crack in it and was bubbling coolant. So on May 20th, 2017 I had installed Xw4z8a520af Tube Assembly, OEM from Ford.

All was good until last Thursday. Car randomly over heated. Later that night, I checked under the hood. I proceeded to open the engine fill cap and before I could turn it a half turn, coolant started coming out the top of it (small crack in cap, this basically crumbled when I fully took it off when replacing housing). I figured it was time to replace the plastic thermostat housing. I bought the Jag metal thermostat housing kit (URO Parts NCE2247ADKIT-PRM Aluminum T-Stat Housing Kit), and new thermostat (Motorcraft RT1154).
When that was installed, we bleed the system twice. After it cooled down, started her up and took her for a quick spin. No overheating. The very next day, it overheated on the way to work (AC was on, as it always is in the summer for me). I immediately cranked the heat on full blast and it went down to just over halfway. On my way home that same night, It did not over heat. No AC or heat was on for this trip. That night, I decided to to bleed it again. I found some air. During one of the last processes of revving at 2k for 3-5 minutes OR until hot, I was getting extremely hot air within 1 minute. I still revved for 3 minutes. The last step of letting it idle for 2 minutes, it started to over heat again at about 1 minute in. I shut her off and here I am today. The fan seems like its spinning correctly..I think. Haven't noticed an degas cracks or leaks (I've had the car for 16 months, never replaced it). I'm not thinking DCCV is messed up because heat and air both will work, until its overheating, then the AC doesn't blow as cold (that was observed at idle, not while driving). Ran the self tests on the climate control and it came back all 8's. Forscan just throws code P1285. I'm not sure if theres anything else I can do in Forscan to try to focus in on the issue. I don't want to go around replacing everything, much rather zero in on whats going on. Any help would be much appreciated. I thought I was good to go with the tube assembly 3 months ago...oops.
 
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NickyCapo said:
...I don't want to go around replacing everything, much rather zero in on whats going on. ...
Click to expand...

Well, you're probably screwed then. What is going on is that all of the not replaced plastic parts are failing. You can keep going the one at a time route, but they all degrade at about the same rate. Replace the main leaker, and the added pressure just moves the problem to the next weakest part.
Do it all at once and enjoy the car for another ten years. One at a time, and curse it for the next few months. Many on here have been through this.

The fan should be very loud when overheating. Also, it should speed up when turning the AC on. If not, then you fan speed actuator is stuck or clogged.
 
Thanks for the reply, Joe. At the end of the day, I'm going to replace what is needed. What I meant was if it were, lets say the fan speed actuator, I didn't want to have to replace the degas tank and water pump if they were still functioning correctly. I will check the fan here in a few minutes though. So when I turn on the car, ill listen for the fan speed/noise, and then turn on the AC and see if it increases? If stuck or clogged, is it able to be cleaned, or would a new one be my only option?
What would be the other plastic parts for me to replace, besides the degas tank?
 
New one.
Degas and upper and lower radiator hoses are the main things left on your first gen V8. You need to also inspect the radiator, particularly the front, top side of the passenger side tank.
 
So I checked the fan. Started car and had air off. Hit AC and heard a click like the fan was changing speeds. I think its picking up speed with AC on, but honestly, can't definitively say that it went up in speed. I need to get someone into the driver seat so I can keep my head and eyes fixated on the fan. When I get a chance tonight, I'm going to check the hoses and inspect the spot on the radiator as well.
But basically after I replaced the tube assembly, the next weakest link, the housing and cap, went out. Now that I replaced that, what you're saying, is that the newest weakest link is going/gone? Is it possible to know if the water pump is failing without taking it off?
 
The water pump is pretty tough. I'd worry about it last. When overheating, the fan will howl. You'll hear it inside the car with the windows closed. If you don't remember hearing such, then you probably have a fan actuator problem too.
 
I don't remember hearing such. I just checked on the fan again. I hear the clicking like it is about to pick up speed, but I actually don't think it goes any faster, atleast it didn't sound like it. The only sound I heard was the actual air from the engine bay. When my helper turned the air off, the fan definitely still sounded and looked the same. So that would be the actuator causing this?
 
It responds (slows down) must slower to turning the AC off, than to turning it on. Still, sounds like the actuator is probably part of your problem.
 
Having just gone through all this on a clean 2001, as joe says, replace the degas, the upper and the lowers. THat's really not that much. Use the Uro degas for a 2001 (ish) S-type you can find on amazon for 70 ish bucks. Thats what my long term radiator mechanic reccomended and I am glad I did. Its real solid. You wont find it for a lincoln though, it fits, but I think they dont advo it as such because the nub that goes in the firewall needs a little tweak.

I also heartily recommending pulling that motorcraft tstat, When I bought my car back last spring I had Lincoln stealership put in the Uro housing and that tstat (at whopping 33 bucks). I had random overheats off and on this whole year. Took it to stealership last when it had been overheating for 3 days, and they promptly said they couldnt replicate the problem. Wouldnt do a dam thing to warranty it! Well my independant mech and I had done enough diagnosing to know it was a sticking tstat.

I had monitored coolant temp from the begining of the hot season, and had very random temps all the time, or obvious stuck condition. Even on drive home, somewhat ok at highway speed, but on city, would not catch up, and creep to overheat level. Fortunately I would get home or work most of the time right before then.

So with all that nonsense going on I had enough. Radiator mech again supprted Stant Superstat, and so next time in shop had it dropped in (5 bucks amazon). WHOLE world of difference. Fan works better, temps dont go over 210, off the highway drops right back down to 200 ish, and you can see when it opens up as it approach 190 temp increase slows way down.

I dont know if its the combo of the Uro tstat and the oem, but contrary to what others would support, my performance for the last two HOT months has been way better this way. Zero overheats too.
 
P.S. The fan is a jet engine if on overheat, you know it. Also you can definitely hear the fan speed change on city driving in coincidence to the temp/accelarator. There must be some programming to optimize cooling management with the PCM. Joe has already taught me that the fan drops out at highway speeds, since I was a little worried in not hearing it any more on the highway. So do look at that actuator, mine did become disconnected once after the timing chains were done, but plugged back in has been no worries. I am on the other hand thinking of buying one as a spare since they may become rare and are so critical.
 
The current degas is letting air in.
Try rebleeding it again on cold start.
Up to temperature it should hold.

Little short drive down the road, it should get further up to temp as coolant really begins to moves throughout.

It will reintroduce air into the system and thus overheats again.

A trinkle and small creek of coolant directly behind drivers front wheel is next.

Degas potentially has microcracks on the backside of it. Allowing for air in and soon coolant out.

That's typically how it plays out.

Pumps are seldom the problem and the OEM thermostat is more then reliable.

As with anything there's always the chance of a defective unit or two in a batchrun.

GLWR,
I'd have a close look at all joint seals, dccv, inlet pipe, degas. It has to be able to hold pressure.

.
 
I really appreciate the replies guys! Grizzly, man I almost pulled the trigger on the Stant thermostat but remembered reading to get the motorcraft one on a thread somewhere. I wonder if I should swap them out, and then re bleed and see what happens.

After that, I'll go with everyone's suggestions on the pipes and Degas. Rigs, would I see coolant leaking at all? Because I haven't noticed any..

It was weird bc I drove it an hour ago for about a 20 min ride. Had heat on 90 half way strength and it stayed at normal running temp (micro hair below middle). About ten min into drive, I shut heat off. Stayed in the middle, same spot. I then got onto the highway for my last 5 minutes and as soon as I got going about 65, it started to creep up. Turned heat back on and it came back down to just over half way.
 
NickyCapo said:
...I then got onto the highway for my last 5 minutes and as soon as I got going about 65, it started to creep up. Turned heat back on and it came back down to just over half way.
Click to expand...

This points away from airflow (fan) and instead to coolant flow. (Unless you have a lot of dirt and gunk clogging the air passages through the radiator.) Coolant flow is reduced by leaky plastic parts letting air in. While it is rare (from my experience) it could also be the thermostat. I've had the opposite experience on this. I had a month or two old Stant thermostat fail on my Ranger, but no problems with the Motorcraft I replaced it with. YMMV. (I'm not condemning Stant over one failure.)

Often you will see no coolant on the ground. It's a small amount weeping out and it can evaporate before it drips off. If you know what you are looking for, you can possibly see the white or orange residue of the coolant on the plastic parts. The degas bottle is an exception. You can't tell anything about it without removing it.
 
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To update..
I drove that same 20 minute drive back home tonight. No AC or heat on. Drove windows down in the highway and then thru town. Car did not over heat. Pulled into my driveway and out the windows up and cranked ac all the way. It blew very cold. Within 2 minutes I hear a little 'pssss' that lasted about 3 seconds, followed by a small jump in temp gauge reading. A minute or so later, same thing happened. This happened about 3 times before it got to 3/4 hot on the temp. Air was still blowing cold.
 
Air in system.

Start soaking those seven Cross vehicle support bolts (item#1 qty7) with penetrating fluid now ...

82249-8623f30f48655a1272e99f34f3b66a5f.gif


for when you go to replace your degas bottle ... they like to snap clean off.




attachment-jpg.jpg


attachment-jpg.jpg


As you can see, they don't crack in an easy to see spot, it's when you get it out and under light, you'll clearly notice the cracks. The back side faces the firewall, you simply can't see it until it's out of the car.

Leave it long enough and it'll start leaking behind the drivers side front wheel.
Only a matter of time. If you haven't replaced that bottle and it's original, it's weak and more then likely needs to be replaced.



P1285 FORD Cylinder Head Over Temperature Condition
Indicates an engine overheat condition was sensed by the cylinder head temperature sensor.

= AIR IN CLOSED LOOPED SYSTEM.


Re&Re - OEM Degas Bottle - GEN 1 V8


.
 
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when timing components got replaced at 120+kmi the upper and lower hoses, the radiator and the water pump got replaced as well as a few of the dccv hoses. the water pump impeller crumbled in my hands. my suggestion would be to buy and install a water pump as well while the coolant system is empty.

when dccv got replaced the engine couldn't be bled no matter what got done. most of my previous vehicles called for engine to be revved to 5K rpm in order to "burp" the air. the car got downshifted till it was driving at 5k rpm and a quarter mile later the engine made a "glug-glug" sound. the degas bottle and the under carrige were dry but the fluid level in the bottle dropped to proper level and both radiator hoses felt full of fluid.

good luck.
 
It's not the coolant/water pump.
His degas bottle has microcracks in it.

~ placing 10$ bet.
 
Yup. Your going down the right paths on both those parts. I also bought the new Stant thermostat bottle cap for 5 ish bucks too. Stant website part lookup is real good.

The tank does not come with the hoses, probably why its cheaper, so do inspect as you replace, and those 1/2 incher (guessing) hoses are common size part store cut to order if you think you need, which I would doubt.

Be aware since it is Jag tank the cap wont click click when done, but believe me it takes some grip to get it back off to top the tank off when needed so no leaks there.

As far as cracks in the tank go, thats all relative to use in the past. So cal for me allowed my Factory installed tank to be in good shape still. I replaced as a final well i want to be done with any issues after resolving the faulty tstat, but it is so good I am holding it as a spare for long road trips. I agree though, even if its the factory, if its yellowing/ish its probably best to real that out with a new one.
 
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So, the URO tank I ordered, I didn't realize it, but the Amazon Prime order option doesn't ship for 1-2 months?!
So I went to check my other options, and unless I want to spend 45$ on 2 day shipping, I won't be able to get it for about a week.
I found this on ebay: Radiator Coolant Overflow Tank Reservoir for Ford Thunderbird LincolnLS DL03207T | eBay

It has a 2-year/25k warranty. Anyone have any experience or knowledge on it? I can't get it quickly, at for a favorable price. If not, I guess I'll be waiting it out...
 
That's not an OEM bottle. It's further aftermarket crap.

... but don't take my word for it. Perhaps Grizzly can lead you the way into these cheaper, questionable LS aftermarket parts (which over time have proven faulty in the past). Particularly the Dorman bottle is/was a real winner. You can always try something else out and see if it lasts or even will hold pressure. 50/50 chance. Based on the years of previous member support claims with respect to reliability, myself I would heed the warnings and go with an OEM bottle.

Totally up to you. Your car, your time & money!


.
 
https://www.amazon.com/APA-C2C34318-Expansion-Tank-Pack/dp/B01EIUMWL2

One of those 5 sources should get it to you quicker.

I pulled half a dozen or so of bottles at the junk yard thinking a spare for my ok but old factory bottle. I would say this uro or stock only. In this case the plastic quality is obvious between all the choices. The dorman is not meant to last, and most of the unlisted brands on ebay are same source as dorman just not distributed by them.

Warranty means nothing. If not mistaken, dorman is lifetime - but that just means they will give you a new one if you follow all their rules. Only gonna cost them a couple bucks on their bottom line anyhow.

you can also do a general search on that c2c number. its the model number.
 
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Finally pulled the degas...
There was clearly some cracks on the backside of the tank.
Did the bleed procedure twice:
First time, it overheated a little bit, but didn't continue to rise.
Shut it off and let it cool for 30 minutes. When it was time to bleed again, the coolant level had gone down quite a bit, visually, in the degas tank.
Followed bleed process again and this time it did not over heat. Letting it cool for an hour and will take it for a spin, to test out. Will report with an update. Thanks to everyone who helped out!!!
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