Specs on COP's

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grizzlyls

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anyone have a source for the specs on the OEM COP's. I am going to invest in that next. After reading all the posts here about Accel, MSD, and Visteon's I did a batch of research on the web. MSD and Accel spec out on their webs, but I would like to know what oem is to compare. I think *crosses fingers* I may have found the source for the OEM units out of China. If so, then we can probably bypass paying for the fancy etching on the unit, and the plastic bag. Now that Visteon Hungary is gone.... choices kinda suck.

I would like to bench test them though, so if someone could help with this info, and maybe some tips about the best way to test....
 
You have most likely found a source for aftermarket replacement COP's that are made in any number of factories in China. I can think of at least four of those factories right off the top of my head. Some are much better than others, some of these are to be avoided at all costs. If Visteon has chosen to move away from a manufacturing facility in Hungary, then they will have resource them in another ISO qualified facility.

What you need are the primary and secondary resistance and inductance values of the windings - the turns ratio is a mathematically calculated number. If you alter these values in hope of boosting output, you have to know the impact on dwell control circuit in terms of the primary amperage draw on the coil driver as well as the additional heat that can be in generated in the primary windings.

There are a lot of other concerns as well with all the Ford COP's since they are not much more than a "short stack of quarters" in terms of size. The quality of the copper wire used in the windings, the strength of the rare earth magnets (no room for a tradition large steel laminate stack), the rating of the epoxy fill material, the grade and temperature rating of the silicone spark plug boot material as well as the stainless steel used in the secondary contact spring and if there is a ferrite choke in there or not. I am not sure I would leave the selection and qualification process of these COP's to just anyone.

I should know, as I have been involved with the design, engineering and manufacturing of automotive ignition products as a tier 1 OEM supplier, as well as the OES and replacement aftermarket and the high performance aftermarket for about 31 years now.
 
Absolutely DB. Thats why I am doing all this research. I worked with Visteon for a very short bit, when they wanted to put SACD in factory cars for Ford. Sadly that didnt fly. But I digress. As far as I know Visteon is gone from the coil business, and the current buys from Motorcraft are plainly coming from China. So I am hoping to confirm the source as being what Motorcraft uses - and of course they will never admit that. I do know that there is a range of factories, having dealt with this in the Music Industry. Currently though, unless Ford made an exclusivity agreement, which I doubt since the Chinese dont like to do that now that its easy to direct sell, my point stands - If I am right, why should we pay for etching and a bag?

Oh sub note - MSD and Accel give those ratings on their website. Sadly I got only a vague answer from them which eluded to the number of valves the COP was designed for.
 
Well, the Accel 4.6L 2V coil has a good track record as a conversion coil in practice for many LS owners. I would imagine the specs for it would be a good starting place on paper. I went through half of the coils one at a time by the time I got to 60K, with them failing around 5-10K apart, and have put over 70K on the original set of Accel COPs without any issue since.

I also swapped to NGK Iridium IX plugs so I can't say the COP alone is the reason I am problem-free, although I can't imagine Platinum vs Idirium plugs being a HUGE factor outside iridium being less prone to fouling but full disclosure provided nonetheless.

If the polarity on the LS was the same then the Accel conversion would be even less of an issue. Those damn connecters are a PITA to get apart.
 
Wicked Ace - Right, my point exactly. If I have found the source for those, why pay for etching and a motorcraft throw away bag.

Kumba, yes thankfully they put the specs up on the site so I have reviewed that, but what made me curious is the choice you all made - 2v instead of the 4v version. The vague response I got from accel made me feel the 4v would be closer to spec in Lincolns. I looked and I didnt see anyone using these (or the accell version):

https://www.msdperformance.com/products/coils/ford_cop_coils/parts/82448

To me that should be closer to our car with the straight boot and the 90 degree connector not the 45 degree.

And back to wicked ace - these at half the price vs your choice. No thanks. The only thing that bothers me is doing the pin swap, which I also wonder if its necessary with the 4v version.

Anyhoo, ultimately if my suspicion turns out right, and these are motorcraft 'oem' through the back channel you all will want to do them. If not, I dont want to waste anyones time.

Also of note: Deaconblue has sent me about all I think I will need to confirm this. Feel free to share here some more, but if I have found the golden goose, trust me I will share. :cool:
 
The 2V COPs were chosen because of the boot depth and it had a retaining tab to hold them in place. The 4V COPs would have required a retaining plate of some sort since they lack a retaining tab. The boot is also not removable on the 4V COPs and they look like they'd be too tall. So the fit is most likely why 2V COPs were chosen.

Later we found out that you can fit the 2V coils under the stock cover but it's a tight fit. I did it by flattening the connector and using the boot from the LS. Another guy did the same thing but just let the cover bend the coil over in the valve cover and didn't mess with the connector.
 
There is another option folks, and that is doing away with COPs altogether. Use regular spark plug wires to connect to individual coils. Two big problems, and that is finding regular coils that the LS computer will talk to, and keeping water out of the spark plug wells. I had planned to see if GM LS coils would work, it would be something to look into as those coils last for damn near ever. For the wires, I was going to look at wires that had large plugs attached and run them through holes drilled in the valve covers. An alternative for the plastic printing boys here would be to make new two piece valve covers that would allow you to install one part, install the wires, then install the second half. Said two piece valve cover would have built-in coil mounts installed. Putting the coil outside would also allow them to better dissipate heat.

Just a thought though. You guys do what you want.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Just so you know I did read all those things in here up front. Subject is definitely covered well for but:

Kumba you explained it well just didnt see that anywhere from my searches. I also felt that I may go down that path and look at 'pressure fitting' the 4v version.

FDR I may be to harsh about that, what I really mean is on a 15 year car the chance of plastic breakage is getting high as we all know. I have seen several of these ignition companies sell replacement ends though. I just would rather not have that type of connection. I have to laugh, cause my dealer said something to me about someone superglued the boots on my coils - dont get what she meant - but said when they went to fix that, it may mean replacing the whole harness which would be "serious money". Now I know replacement ends exist I just roll my eyes. I hadnt gone for the 2nd opinion on the superglue though, waiting to sort this out and then go in.

Telco, ya I get what you are saying. In my research I saw that layout and by gosh that would be way better on this car. Somebody even makes short little ceramic plug wires I saw that probably could be used no mod. To bad you sold your car, would have been a good test bed. :p
 
grizzlyls said:
Kumba you explained it well just didnt see that anywhere from my searches. I also felt that I may go down that path and look at 'pressure fitting' the 4v version.
Click to expand...

The guy who just used the stock cover to bend the coil over in the valve cover used 2V coils. I believe the non-removable boot in the 4V coil makes them too long period no matter how you do it. But, no one has ever expressly tried either that I can remember.
 
Well update on this. I ordered a batch of these coils, and went to the dealer yesterday with one. A side by side comparison between the two revealed that both were exactly the same. Die marks on the plastic, epoxy shape and color, even the lil dab of dieletric grease on the end was clearly similar. The only difference was the etching on the Motorcraft. Thanks to deaconblue, the next step is to bench test one to compare. When I go to put them on the car, if one of the three replacements from 2 years ago is motorcraft chinese, I may go so far as cutting both in half and compare. Not gonna give the dealer nearly 70 bucks to do that! If they spec out good, I will share the source. :cool:
 
im still waiting to see pictures of this infamous and super rare LSC badging. :shifty:
 
Sadly I dont have a bench, so I am trying to find a reasonable electric specialty shop to do it. The guy I know and thought might could do doesnt have the right tools. Hmm at this point, maybe if one of the members here has we should talk and maybe send one mail or something. I will still try to look around here.

My nature has always been to deal in facts, not assumptions. Thus why the LSC pics havnt come. I am trying to get confirmation from a source of information that I didnt have history with. Yesterday, my Original salesman (the 2002) finally contacted me. He has been Lincoln Sales out of Vegas for over 20 years, and I vaguely remember our conversation about it. Once I email, he will likely be able to confirm my memories, and give me more facts. The facts about the coils is also why I am kind of stalling about the source. If its dead end and wrong, dont need egg on the face. :)
 
Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. "Bench testing" something like an ignition coil requires several not-terribly-common items, plus a good idea of what a "normal" output is supposed to look like. A good oscilloscope is just the beginning. Plus something to drive it that replicates the PCM control methodology, plus a load (spark plug setup of some sort). Probably also need something to monitor current draw in addition to voltages.

In the end the big question is how the epoxy holds up over the repeated heat cycles. That's not easy to figure out on a bench or by just cutting it open to look at the assembly.

Might as well just run them and see how it goes for a year or so.
 
In my research, I have stumbled on some good ASE (??) training vids that basically showed the proper wave forms and such. Deaconblue shared specs he had found, so I am thinking that basically a solid electrical specialist will have the right stuff to see if they are in spec. If so, then final test is in car. As mentioned earlier, they upon inspection appear identical, and that includes the epoxy and even how it lays in the top. Guess I could try a sample etching for the hell of it and see what that compares as.
 
You certainly can't verify that the epoxy is the same just by looking at it. Chemical and physical testing would be required. Coil testing does still require some somewhat specialized setup and know how. If you get someone too general, the tests may just fool you.

Assuming you have identified the current supplier...
They may or may not be using the same epoxy for the non-Ford coils. Ford could only allow them to use the epoxy on Ford coils, if it is something licensed from Ford.
It may be that all coils (Ford and non-Ford branded) go though the same quality tests, or it could be that the Ford branded get an extra set of tests to pass before they are accepted. In the worst case, it could be that the coils that fail the extra Ford tests are sold as the non-branded coils.
I would be more understanding of this effort and taking these risks if a set of coils had to be replaced every year. However, the current Ford branded coils are doing pretty good and it should be that you only have to replace them a couple of times for the life of the car. At this point, most LSes out there should only ever need one more coil change.
 
joegr said:
At this point, most LSes out there should only ever need one more coil change.
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Wuuuut?!? You suggesting my LS wont make it to 500k like a Mercedes? :p

I am trying to resolve this as my first round to replace the 5 factories that still are in there, then probably will need to buy a back up set for future when things really get scarce.
 
grizzlyls said:
Wuuuut?!? You suggesting my LS wont make it to 500k like a Mercedes? :p...
Click to expand...

If the car was still supported and there was reason to believe that the parts would remain available, then maybe it could be nearly practical to maintain it that long. As it is, not so much.
 
joegr said:
You certainly can't verify that the epoxy is the same just by looking at it. Chemical and physical testing would be required. Coil testing does still require some somewhat specialized setup and know how. If you get someone too general, the tests may just fool you.

Assuming you have identified the current supplier...
They may or may not be using the same epoxy for the non-Ford coils. Ford could only allow them to use the epoxy on Ford coils, if it is something licensed from Ford.
It may be that all coils (Ford and non-Ford branded) go though the same quality tests, or it could be that the Ford branded get an extra set of tests to pass before they are accepted. In the worst case, it could be that the coils that fail the extra Ford tests are sold as the non-branded coils.
I would be more understanding of this effort and taking these risks if a set of coils had to be replaced every year. However, the current Ford branded coils are doing pretty good and it should be that you only have to replace them a couple of times for the life of the car. At this point, most LSes out there should only ever need one more coil change.
Click to expand...

There is no licence or copyright on epoxy.

A dye or color as a designation cannot be considered an infringement .

there cannot be a patent on a certain type of epoxy ,,a brand name yes,,but,,,the composition is only limited by the quality of the components.

If looking for heat resistance and insulation qualities the filler may cost a bit more but still only requires a hardener.

Then the time needed for a cure time could be a factor for cost savings,,mix it "hot" to get the product out or let it cure slow ??

A good epoxy is not that much more than a cheap epoxy if you want a quality product.

i cant see the epoxy being a factor in coil quality..
 
roncoinc said:
...i cant see the epoxy being a factor in coil quality..
Click to expand...

But, it was specifically identified as the reason the coils were/are failing. Also, epoxy can be more complicated than you seem to think. Especially when it comes to high voltage epoxy with nanocomposites.

Some of the vehicles may experience an engine misfire condition predominantly due to internal
breakdown in the coil and lack of adhesion between the epoxy and the coil housing material.
These issues may cause the coil to operate at an insufficient voltage level, resulting in ignition coil
misfires.
 
every epoxy is a mixture of chemicals... you can change the ingredients which will change the epoxy, and you can even change just the precise ratios those chemicals are will have an effect on the end epoxy.

there is a big reason that there in not just one single type/brand of epoxy out there.


roncoinc said:
i cant see the epoxy being a factor in coil quality..
Click to expand...

of course it could, if the correct epoxy was mixed wrong, it may not do its job, if the incorrect epoxy was used it may not do its job... too many varibles in there to say that it couldn't be a factor.
 
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