Starter or Not?

regiment1

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2000 LS V8. 148k miles.

The car had been sitting outside on the street for three days. The weather was cool (mid-40's at night, 60 during the day) and damp the whole time. I went to start the car, and it fired up as normal, but abruptly died after only 2 or 3 seconds. I tried to start it up again, and the starter only made a whirring sound. There was not the normal starter sound and the car did not vibrate or shake at all.

About 5 days later it was towed to the shop. They tried to start it, and said it sounded like there was no compression. After another day of sitting, they were able to start the car. They said that it acted like it had been flooded, and it gave out a big cloud of white smoke. But once that happened, it drove and started several times just fine. They scanned the car and came up with some PATS codes (didn't get the details - sorry), which they cleared and checked again after a few small test drives and came up with nothing. I picked it up a couple of days later. They had been driving the car short distances over those two days. It started just like normal and drove fine.

I initially thought it was the starter. I had a suspicion since the car seems to crank an extra time before it starts than it used to. That started in March at the same time I moved the car out of the garage, onto the driveway.

Any ideas?
 
I'm not sure about this but, try this the next time it happens. Take the key out, get out, lock the car, and then get back in and try to start it. My 2001 used to do the same thing (no smoke). It happened to my then wife all the time. I started calling it the "Anti-Yap Protection Feature". I actually thought it was a feature of the car if you accidentally left the keys in the ignition so no one could just turn the key and start it. I never found out if that was a feature though. I told my then wife it was so she would bring her azz on home instead of sitting there yapping with here buddies.
 
I'm not sure about this but, try this the next time it happens. Take the key out, get out, lock the car, and then get back in and try to start it. My 2001 used to do the same thing (no smoke). It happened to my then wife all the time. I started calling it the "Anti-Yap Protection Feature". I actually thought it was a feature of the car if you accidentally left the keys in the ignition so no one could just turn the key and start it. I never found out if that was a feature though. I told my then wife it was so she would bring her azz on home instead of sitting there yapping with here buddies.

So maybe there is a PATS "feature" here. It's raining and cold today, we'll see if the same thing happens.
 
Like I said, I'm not certain that was it. I just got used to it happening sometime and when it did, I would just do that and it was good. I would pay attention to the PATS light if I were you though.
 
It's not a PATS feature. There is some problem.
 
It's not a PATS feature. There is some problem.

Yeah, I had put the quotes around "feature" as mild sarcasm. You think it's not related to PATS?

I have also worried about injector, gaskets, who knows...
 
PATS is not supposed to shut down a running engine. I'm not sure about the "no compression" thing. Did you mean that the starter turned the crankshaft really fast?
I think that your PCM relay should be one of your suspects. It would have helped to know exactly which PATS codes they saw. Some can be triggered power failure to the PCM.
 
PATS is not supposed to shut down a running engine. I'm not sure about the "no compression" thing. Did you mean that the starter turned the crankshaft really fast?

That's almost exactly how he described it.

I think that your PCM relay should be one of your suspects. It would have helped to know exactly which PATS codes they saw. Some can be triggered power failure to the PCM.

I was disappointed he didn't note them for me before clearing them.
 
kinda sounds like two different problems here, first is what caused the motor to stall (like the PCM relay, Joe mentioned)


the second issue may be (and I'm not sure if all car starters work like this or not, I've had to replace very few, so...) the bendix is sticking on the starter and and not being pushed into the flywheel? so the starter is spinning with no resistance at all and the motor isn't turning a bit. would sound exactly like described.


had to replace the starter on my Zero Turn a couple of days ago because of this. started out only once, then once in a while, by the end of last week, your were lucky if it worked 10% of the time. and when it was not working, the starter just freely spun way faster than it normally would but would not engage the motor at all so there was none of the usual engine shaking that happens when you try to start it.
 
... (and I'm not sure if all car starters work like this or not, I've had to replace very few, so...) the bendix is sticking on the starter and and not being pushed into the flywheel? so the starter is spinning with no resistance at all and the motor isn't turning a bit. would sound exactly like described....

Not all starters work in the same way, but I suspect that many work like the one on the LS these days. There is a large solenoid on the side of the starter that moves the starter's gear into contact with the flywheel (instead of a classic "bendix" system, this is called a pre-engagement system). The same solenoid also closes contacts that provide power to the starter motor. In theory, this means the starter shouldn't ever spin without being engaged to the engine. In practice, some failures are still possible where this happens. Anyway, using a bendix causes some wear to the teeth of the flywheel/flexplate because a moving gear hits a still gear. Most cars moved away from that system many years ago. (Small engines like lawnmowers still use it.)
 
Not all starters work in the same way, but I suspect that many work like the one on the LS these days. There is a large solenoid on the side of the starter that moves the starter's gear into contact with the flywheel (instead of a classic "bendix" system, this is called a pre-engagement system). The same solenoid also closes contacts that provide power to the starter motor. In theory, this means the starter shouldn't ever spin without being engaged to the engine. In practice, some failures are still possible where this happens. Anyway, using a bendix causes some wear to the teeth of the flywheel/flexplate because a moving gear hits a still gear. Most cars moved away from that system many years ago. (Small engines like lawnmowers still use it.)

I had a starter solenoid fail on my old Honda, and that prevented the starter from engaging at all.

Let's suppose the solenoid is just a *little* bit weak. Could it fail to engage just enough that the solenoid would have power but it wouldn't engage the motor? And it would happen when it's cold and wet but not when the weather was nicer?
 
...Let's suppose the solenoid is just a *little* bit weak. Could it fail to engage just enough that the solenoid would have power but it wouldn't engage the motor? And it would happen when it's cold and wet but not when the weather was nicer?

I don't know if that's possible or not. I know that it could be eliminated by design, but I don't know the exact design they used. I'd say it's not an unreasonable possibility.
 
gotcha, thanks Joe. just though it was very weird to hear it spinning but not feel if turning anything, i just figured if it was engageing with the motor, it would either spin it like normal or that it would definitely make a noise letting you know how unhappy it was! lol
 
I found out yesterday that the sunroof drain is probably disconnected on the driver side. There was water in the driver side door map 'pocket'. It makes me wonder, since the car was sitting on the street when this happened, it was tilted toward the passenger side. Maybe some water got into the dash and cause the original ignition problem. The flooding was just a symptom of trying to start the car.
 
To answer your question, the title of this thread, I would say it is not your starter...at least mine isn't and I have the exact same problem.

So does anyone have a solution to this issue? I have the exact same problem. I parked my car behind my garage for the past 2 weeks as I was not using it. I was going to move it to mow around it the other day and it started for a second or two and then stalled. When I tried to restart it, I get the starter spinning but not engaging the flywheel (or at least that's what it sounds like to me). I replaced the starter today with a remanufactured one from Advanced, same problem with new starter. I turned the engine over with a wrench in case there were missing teeth on the flywheel/pressure plate which I did not see or feel while the starter was off. Same thing, sounds like the bendix is not engaging. Called the auto parts store and had them bench test my old one, said it works just fine. I would really like to fix this thing tomorrow as I have the day off but am kind of stuck as to what to try next.
 
One thing I did notice today when I dragged it to the pavement to work on it, it was very wet in the engine compartment from lots of rain lately and being parked on grass. Literally water on everything under the hood when I opened it. Don't know that it would matter or not...just an observation.
 
One more thing. After I get this solved, is it worth leaving the remanufactured starter in the car? I've got $100 into it after core return. The car now has 190K on it. How many miles are these cars good for? I've replaced all but one of the coil packs, some twice and the upper timing chains and tensioners, other than those things it's run fine. Not sure how much longer I'll keep it as I don't drive it very often anymore.

One more possible clue to the starter issue? My daughter has been driving this car for the past 1.5 years so I don't know how often it happened but I drove it one day a month ago and there was a 2 second delay from when I turned the key to the start position to when the motor turned over. She said it happens once in a while but she wasn't too worried because it's been doing it for a year.
 
How many miles are these cars good for?

these cars will last until you stop properly maintaining them, or until parts are no longer available.



also if the hood was closed, no matter how much it rained, nothing on top of the motor SHOULD be wet... you probably need to fix the leaking cowl



also I'm pretty sure it's safe to say you have not replaced a single coil pack yet...
 
The LS uses COPs (Coil-On-Plug), not coil packs.
Remove the crankshaft position sensor and turn the crankshaft by hand. Look through the hole that the sensor came out of and make sure the flexplate isn't broken. You really have three possibilities here (if the starter really isn't turning the crankshaft): 1. Bad starter (even the replacement), 2. Bad install of starter, or 3. broken flexplate.

The sometimes delay when turning the key to start is probably an issue with the PATS reading your key. Could be the key, could be the PATS, or it could be that you have another PATS key on the key ring that is interfering.
 
these cars will last until you stop properly maintaining them, or until parts are no longer available.

also if the hood was closed, no matter how much it rained, nothing on top of the motor SHOULD be wet... you probably need to fix the leaking cowl

also I'm pretty sure it's safe to say you have not replaced a single coil pack yet...



Is there someone out there who has any helpful advice? I posted on this forum for help, not to be ridiculed. The water under the hood of my car was condensation, maybe I wasn't clear. My point was is excessive moisture going to cause a certain component of this starting system to fail? It was wet like when you leave a sheet of plastic in the grass over night, bottom side is all wet in the morning. It was pretty early in the day when I opened the hood. Going with your water theory, are telling me that a leaky cowl is causing my starter not to work...if so why? Does it drain into a relay, on to a circuit board or something other electronic component? No matter what the case I should be able to replace something to make it work. I had a VW Rabbit once that the leaky cowl caused the fuse panel to corrode causing the heater switch to melt down...VW mechanic told me right away what the problem was when I told him my heater switch melted.

As for my "how many miles is the car good for" comment I added. I was looking for some advice on the starter. Is it worth it for me to leave the new one in even though the old one is probably still good? The old one is probably OK since the new starter does the same thing, but do I want to put it back in since it's already been in there for 14 years and 190,000 miles? The auto parts store bench tested the old one and said it spins and pushes the gear out so it should be fine. I guess I need to make the decision on my own, thought maybe someone had insight on to a common expensive failure at some certain milage (example tranny goes out at 200-225K miles or something).

As for the current problem, the only thing I haven't done is remove the starter from the car, hook the wires up while its off the vehicle and have someone else turn the key while I watch it.

As to why you say you're pretty sure I've not changed any coil packs....not sure what you're implying there. I've changed about every common Lincoln LS failure on this car as well as performed all maintenance since the warranty expired 10 years ago. Ball joints, struts, hubs, brakes, rear end bearings, half shafts, secondary timing chains and tensioners, coil packs, window regulators.......

I'm wondering if anyone has had this issue and what the fix is. I know I'm not the only one, the original post is exactly the same problem I'm having.
 
The LS uses COPs (Coil-On-Plug), not coil packs.
Remove the crankshaft position sensor and turn the crankshaft by hand. Look through the hole that the sensor came out of and make sure the flexplate isn't broken. You really have three possibilities here (if the starter really isn't turning the crankshaft): 1. Bad starter (even the replacement), 2. Bad install of starter, or 3. broken flexplate.

The sometimes delay when turning the key to start is probably an issue with the PATS reading your key. Could be the key, could be the PATS, or it could be that you have another PATS key on the key ring that is interfering.


joegr, thanks for the advice. I will go check on these things now.

Pretty sure the starter is good since the original did the same before I ever messed with it and it tests fine now. I may stop at the Auto Parts store and have them show me the bench test, just to be sure before I rule that out and waste a bunch of time chasing other things when they sold me a bad starter. It is a reman starter so the thought of getting a bad one did cross my mind. Is it common for the flexplate to break? It would pretty much have to break off the crank, can't have that many bad teeth.

As for the Coil packs - COP's thing, you know what I meant. Terminology. When I read 1LoudLS's comment I thought he was implying I had no idea what I was talking about.

As for the key thing, you may have something there. I had an aftermarket remote start system installed years back (Python). The remote got broke a year or so back and it messed up the starting. Would do the bad battery stuff when trying to start the car (steering wheel, horn, lights...). I took it apart and found the chip had broken solder joints and I was able to hold it on long enough to press the button to disable it, then it worked with the standard key fob/key but that is about the time the problems started. There is a key buried in the dash somewhere for that setup. I suppose I should remove the system or maybe look into a new remote, just didn't want to pay $100 for a remote when I rarely drive the car.
 

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